ThePRGuy
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Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:59 pm

Quote:
Jacques Chirac and Romano Prodi are to discuss the future of troubled Italian airline Alitalia amid talk of a possible merger with Air France-KLM.

Full story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6175888.stm

Interesting prospect, I wonder how a merger would affect AZ?

Thanks
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:30 pm

Interestingly, Prodi himself seems afraid that AZ will be gobbled up

Quote:
But ahead of Thursday's meeting with President Chirac, Mr Prodi said he was concerned about Air France's motives for any such arrangement.

"I have always supported contacts between the two groups but now I have a lot of doubts," he told French newspaper Le Figaro.

"Does it (Air France) want to create a big European transport group in which Italy would have a place, or simply grab the Italian air transport market, which is large and very lucrative."

And at the same time he wants foreign investors:

Quote:
Loss-making Alitalia is on the hunt for strategic partners and speculation has focused on Air France-KLM, which holds a small stake in its counterpart.

An aviation adviser to the Italian government has said Alitalia should be willing to buy a substantial number of aircraft from Franco-German planemaker Airbus in return for Air France investing in its business.

This is getting tiresome... Foreign investment in AZ yes, too much foreign dominance in AZ no. Welcome to the brave new world, Italy...

While I am not specifically after AZ's downfall, I am very dismayed at the way Italian politicians continue to handle this. It's been said many times before, but this company should be left alone by unions and politicians (almost impossible, I know), and then we'll see whether it survives or not.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
m404
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:32 pm

"Loss-making Alitalia"


"or simply grab the Italian air transport market, which is large and very lucrative."

An aviation adviser to the Italian government has said Alitalia should be willing to buy a substantial number of aircraft from Franco-German planemaker Airbus in return for Air France investing in its business."

I wonder what the reaction of Alitalia's workers would be to privitization and not being owned by the government? How many times have KL and AF told them the terms?

[Edited 2006-11-23 12:33:06]
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AirbusA6
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 1):
Quote:

An aviation adviser to the Italian government has said Alitalia should be willing to buy a substantial number of aircraft from Franco-German planemaker Airbus in return for Air France investing in its business.

As Italy has a large stake in the 787, that would be an interesting political decision...
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ThePRGuy
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 3):
As Italy has a large stake in the 787, that would be an interesting political decision...

Yeah, quite.
It would be interesting to see any changes they would make if some kjind of merger came about.
THanks
Alex
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jycarlisle
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:46 am

No ....... Please don't let this be ......


Cheers,
Jeremy
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
art
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:00 am

From the BBC report:

Chief executive Jean-Cyril Spinetta confirmed the airline was in talks with its Italian counterpart about its restructuring plan and what savings could be generated from a possible alliance.

"I am of the conviction that a tie-up between the two groups would create value," he said.

"Air France-KLM is proof that the merger of companies from different countries can create value."

KLM was not a basket case. An Air France merger with Alitalia would destroy a lot of value on the Air France side.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:47 am

It feels like AZ only wants AF/KL to bail her out and save them from complete bankruptcy.

They must be in a very tight situation to overcome their pride and ask for help. A real last resort but AF/KL will have to go about it in a businesslike way: if we can make money do it, if not, don't do it.

KL won't have much to say in this decision btw, it's Spinetta who has the final word. Maybe that's for the best because KL already went through a bad experience with AZ once...
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
BAtriple7
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:52 am

Looks like French investors don't like the news. AF share prices fell 6.5% to 30.3 euros today after the announcement of a possible AF/AZ thang:

http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/E...2006/11_Novembre/23/alitalia.shtml
 
Boeing777/747
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM,

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:16 am

There are NO plans for a merge with Alitalia there are only negotiatians about cooperation. KLM CEO Mr. Leo van Wijk said today that Air France and KLM are focusing on Delta Air Lines to get involved on the US market.

Leo van Wijk also said that a merge between US Airways and Delta Air Lines is very unlikely. He also said that that would be very unlogical and that US Airways is making an emergency step by doing this. US Airways has financial problems.

[Edited 2006-11-23 20:21:17]

[Edited 2006-11-23 20:22:12]
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Reply 9):

Yeah, that seems to make more sense than the alitalia deal.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
Asturias
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting M404 (Reply 2):
...number of aircraft from Franco-German planemaker Airbus in return...

Ahem. Franco-German-Spanish-UK planemaker.

cheers

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:44 am

Here's an interesting link (in French):

http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/23112006/202...usion-avec-alitalia-mais-pose.html

Among other things the article says that it was Alitalia that asked Air France for a possible merger and that, only after Alitalia's request, Air France (now AF/KL group) began what Mr. Spinetta called "a mutual exploration phase". Moreover, before starting such an ambitious project, AF/KL is trying to verify if AZ will be capable to recover itself economically before taking it over. In order to achieve this aim, Mr. Spinetta suggests:

- just one hub, to be choosed between FCO and MXP;
- suppression of certain low-revenue routes;
- dismissal of about 200 pilots and 300/400 flight attendants;
- dismissal of 3 long-haul and 20 medium-haul aircrafts.

Tomorrow (24/11) Mr. Chirac and Mr. Prodi will talk about this issue in Lucca during an Italo-French summit.
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Jano
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM,

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:02 am

Mr. Prodi quote

"Does it (Air France) want to create a big European transport group in which Italy would have a place, or simply grab the Italian air transport market, which is large and very lucrative."

I'm thinking it's going to be the first option. It's going to be the first PanEuropean airline (later taking over CSA too).
The Widget Air Line :)
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM,

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:41 am

No, no, no...............AF/KL/AZ hell no. I really doubt that something like this will be considered by AF/KL. What if AZ and IB or BA were an option?
 
mindscape
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Reply 9):
There are NO plans for a merge with Alitalia there are only negotiatians about cooperation

Correct. On the website of the French newspaper Le Monde it is said that (in French) Le Monde
"On the demand of AZ, AF-KL has started an exploratory phase with AZ, mainly focused on 3 points :
1) Would the current restructure plan of AZ allow the carrier to reach an acceptable financial/economic situation?
2) Do AF-KL and AZ share the same strategy and future ?
3) If the two previous questions are positives then what would be the resulting synergies ?"

Spinetta added that "it is only when we will have positive answers on those points that we would be able to ask for an authorisation for a merger study
 
797
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:54 am

Well, so as we can see the rumours are still in the air...

I see that all this situation is going to places none of us can really describe. Maybe the strategy is different from the AF/KL people. Merging with a partially dead airline doesn't really make sense to me... that would need to have loads of money involved to get the airline and then to save it. So, what's the real deal here? Getting a stake of a problem airline isn't like buying a broken t-shirt?

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 15):
2) Do AF-KL and AZ share the same strategy and future ?

Does AZ serve any international city that AF and KL go to?
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
BA1985
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:01 pm

Alitalia is a bit of a disaster in terms of service and certainly in terms of its union relations and dominance of those unions as well as a dismal financial performance. I think it is getting to the point where national owernship of airliners within the EU is going to have to be consigned to the past and the days of the legacy carriers is going to be transformed. I think Alitalia ahould be left to go to the highest bidder....it cannot really be in more of a mess than it is at the moment.
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 16):
Does AZ serve any international city that AF and KL go to?

Of course! Just to mention some of them:

Europe: ARN, ATH, BCN, BRU, CDG, CPH, DUB, FRA, GVA, IST, LHR, LIS, MAD, MLA, MUC, OTP, PRG, SOF, SVO, ZRH.

Near East: BEY, THR, TLV.

Far East: DEL, NRT.

Africa: ALG, CAI, CMN, DKR, LOS, TIP, TUN.

South America: CCS, EZE, GRU.

North America: JFK, MIA, WAS, YYZ.

This is not a complete list though...
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mauriceb
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:17 pm

Lol i don't see this happening, when KLM thought about entering SkyTeam , one of the obsticales was AZ, and they still aren't best friends...


I rather see AF-KL taking some interests in DL, which obviously makes sense since AF-KL hold a strong position in the USA...+ Delta is a great airline  Smile
 
lexer
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:29 pm

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 8):
Looks like French investors don't like the news. AF share prices fell 6.5% to 30.3 euros today after the announcement of a possible AF/AZ thang:

The fall in stock price was not really related to that news. The shares had risen by 100% in almost a straight line up over the last six months, any disappointing news would send the stock down a notch - in this case a financial performance below market expectations.

My reading is that the Italian government is leaning heavily on France's government to welcome Alitalia in AF/KL as it is pretty much the only solution they see which would safe face. All rescue plans have come to naught over the last few years and it is starting to look embarassing. But AF/KL are right to insist on further privatisation and the government will have to take some pain over that issue itself.

I am still amazed to see Italian politicians regularly comment on the management of Alitalia.. a complete travesty of modern enterprise.
 
runway23
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 19):
Lol i don't see this happening, when KLM thought about entering SkyTeam , one of the obsticales was AZ, and they still aren't best friends...

Doesn't really matter what KLM thinking of it. Air France are the one's running the show. If Jean-Cyril Spinetta thinks it makes sense and so does his board of directors then something might happen.

Right now, they are just looking at what could be done if they get together (and indeed if it makes in sense to do so).
 
mauriceb
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:57 pm

Quote:
Doesn't really matter what KLM thinking of it. Air France are the one's running the show. If Jean-Cyril Spinetta thinks it makes sense and so does his board of directors then something might happen.

IMO it does matter what KLM thinks, the Board of directors is almost half french half dutch (if im correctly the percentage was like 55% vs 45%)

But if they will take-over AZ, i think we will see a totally new AZ, and then i don't mean on Fleet decission (which ofcourse will also change), but more on managment, routes etc, even maybe a new name (probably between 2009 and 2012, since AF-KL plans to fly under 1 name)

It will be a mess, since Italy still holds a big stake in AZ, and they will have a hard time to get it approved, because lots of country's aren't waiting on an even bigger AF-KL, remember that the KL take-over, didn't whent easy either...

it will be or DL (not 100%) or AZ (100%) but MP is also on the programm i heard....
 
lexer
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 21):
Doesn't really matter what KLM thinking of it. Air France are the one's running the show.

well, Van Wijk is still on the board I think, but he will leave if I understand correctly. He started and blew up the collaboration with Alitalia and it was his arrogance that eventually lost KLM the arbitration - the decision to break with Alitalia was solely based on his personal judgment rather than objective analysis.
As long as he's there he could torpedo any plans to involve Alitalia.

But then, I find the statements from AF/KL very cautious so far and they are well aware what they would get themselves into.
 
lijnden
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:12 pm

Why would AF-KL spend money on a company that has no right to exist. In a open Europe it would be wiser to start a own Italian carrier than to buy all the unwanted factors. Anyway, if the Italian market was so very interesting, why aren't other airliners knocking on the door? And why does AZ need all the (illegal) protection to stay alive?
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mauriceb
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:33 pm

Quote:
well, Van Wijk is still on the board I think, but he will leave if I understand correctly. He started and blew up the collaboration with Alitalia and it was his arrogance that eventually lost KLM the arbitration

Lol and many more KLM directors... Leo will leave because he already announced long time ago.. has nothing to do with AZ.

Quote:
Why would AF-KL spend money on a company that has no right to exist. In a open Europe it would be wiser to start a own Italian carrier than to buy all the unwanted factors. Anyway, if the Italian market was so very interesting, why aren't other airliners knocking on the door? And why does AZ need all the (illegal) protection to stay alive?

Finally found a soul mate  Smile
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:31 pm

The problem with alitalia is an inherent disregard to customers.
I fly with them once or twice a month (well have done recently) so you would expect that they would be interested in having that repeated custom - BA would.
However, I can liken myself to a piece of s**t when on an AZ aircraft.
I'm flying to Ancona in early december, there will be a trip report so we will see if its same old same old.
Their service is 100 times worse on the ground.

Thanks
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:32 am

Just abridged from yahoo.fr

ALITALIA : CHIRAC JUGE "SOUHAITABLE" UN RAPPROCHEMENT

Au chapitre bilatéral, le projet de fusion entre Air France- KLM et Alitalia, confrontée à de graves difficultés financières, n'a pas été évoqué par Jacques Chirac et Romano Prodi mais a fait l'objet de discussions ministérielles. Le président français a toutefois déclaré, lors de la conférence de presse, qu'il jugeait "souhaitable" ce rapprochement, que les autorités italiennes considèrent avec inquiétude au vu des conditions posées par le groupe franco-néerlandais (possible suppression d'une des deux plates-formes italiennes - Rome et Milan - , fermeture des lignes déficitaires).

ALITALIA: CHIRAC SEES A DRAWING NEAR AS SOMETHING "TO BE HOPED"

At the bilateral chapter, the merger project between Air France- KLM and Alitalia, which is experiencing hard financial difficulties, has not been evoked by Jacques Chirac and Romano Prodi but it has been the subject of ministerial discussions. The French president has however declared, during the press conference, that he considered the drawing near something "to be hoped" while the Italian authorities are worried considering the conidtions fixed by the French- Dutch group (possible closing of one of the hubs - Rome and Milan -, dismissal of low-revenue routes).

So, nothing new...
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797
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RE: Alitalia Possible Merger With Air France/KLM, News

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 18):
Quoting 797 (Reply 16):
Does AZ serve any international city that AF and KL go to?

Of course! Just to mention some of them:

Sorry mate, I wrote the opposite thing here. I meant: Does AZ fly to any International destination that AF and KL don't go to!

Sorry for that
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!