SJCRRPAX
Topic Author
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:22 am

I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787. It seems to me they are using a lot of new ideas on one model of plane. Seems kind of risky to me, shouldn't they first try this stuff on a military freighter or something? Is it because most of the ideas have been tried before or do they have a great test program? I'm thinking if the B787 becomes another Comet, Osprey or F111 the company would be ruined as a civilian aircraft producer.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787.

With over 400 orders and more coming every month, why shouldn't they be?

Yes, the program had it's risks, but Boeing feels they have successfully managed them and, based on the strong orders, so do the airlines.
 
trex8
Posts: 4577
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Yes, the program had it's risks, but Boeing feels they have successfully managed them and, based on the strong orders, so do the airlines.

I don't think you can use the fact that there are orders to explain Boeing succesfully managing the program quite yet, still too early. I'm sure it will be very highly unlikely they will botch it up but it certainly isn't impossible either.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
Seems kind of risky to me, shouldn't they first try this stuff on a military freighter or something? Is it because most of the ideas have been tried before or do they have a great test program?

Boeing has a lot of experience with the various bits and pieces of this tech.. just not all on one plane... but they've done their homework.. why shouldn't they feel confident.. They (like Airbus) have smart people. They trust their smart people have done their jobs...
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:42 am

There are plenty of military aircraft made of composites. The Premier IA bizjet is the first civilian composite aircraft (AFAIK), and they have been flying for a while.

Composites are not new. There are many industries that already make use of them.

[Edited 2006-11-23 20:45:28]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
bongo
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:32 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
why Boeing is confident on B787

Simply: otherwise they don´t produce it and/or sell it !
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
tonytifao
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:04 am

When will the first 787 take flight for tests?
 
commavia
Posts: 9643
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:13 am

I'd say the 432 orders to-date, with more certain to come, without a single plane having even rolled off the line yet is probably adding to their confidence!  Smile
 
zmatt1
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:35 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:20 am

Boeing has been "all in" with new technology and rolled the dice before. 707 and 747 for example.




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andreas Mowinckel


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King

 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:29 am

Why are they so confident? Because its a damn good aircraft built by damn good people, thats why!

The 777 programs results are enough to prove that Boeing can put its money where its mouth is - worlds biggest twin, on time, better performing than expected with no problem.

Boeing has a history of good results, thats why they can be so confident.

Oh, and most of the techniques have been tried on Boeing military aircraft, they arent doing this blind.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 2):
I don't think you can use the fact that there are orders to explain Boeing successfully managing the program quite yet, still too early. I'm sure it will be very highly unlikely they will botch it up but it certainly isn't impossible either.

I wasn't. I used the word "feels" so as to not be making a definitive statement on the program's success, since I'm not privy to the future.  Wink
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 7):
When will the first 787 take flight for tests?

From what I know sometime during August 2007.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Zmatt1 (Reply 9):
Boeing has been "all in" with new technology and rolled the dice before. 707 and 747 for example.

I was thinking the same thing. The 787 isn't as risky as those planes, but still a good risk. Boeing bet the whole company on the success of the 707 and 747. If either of those planes had failed, then Boeing would likely not exist today.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
trex8
Posts: 4577
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:27 am

the risks with the 707 and 747 are somewhat different, they were not really a technological breakthrough but were from a business viewpoint high risk. the 787 is primarily a technological risk.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 14):
the risks with the 707 and 747 are somewhat different, they were not really a technological breakthrough but were from a business viewpoint high risk. the 787 is primarily a technological risk.

True, but much of that technology is being driven by a desire to re-define the business of making aircraft to make it cheaper and quicker. If a CFRP airframe cost significantly more and/or took significantly longer to build then an Al/Al-Li one, it might not have been undertaken even if it truly does end up some 20% more efficient then the 767s and A300s (and less-so the A332s) it replaces.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:49 am

I wonder what the lightning strike properties of the 787 is like with all that composite... and I'm still curious on repairing skin damage...

Just layman's curiousity which I'm sure time will answer...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
I was thinking the same thing. The 787 isn't as risky as those planes, but still a good risk. Boeing bet the whole company on the success of the 707 and 747. If either of those planes had failed, then Boeing would likely not exist today.

Boeing has a history of taking dramatic steps with game changing A/C, meaning new classes of A/C (707. 747, 777), as opposed to applying improved technology to known classes of A/C in order improve on the class.

I am not an engineer, but I suspect the leap they took with this composite design was a highly researched and estimated risk, and I suspect they make various practical tests and trials as the project progresses, ahead of production, so that the snags are discovered and are solved during research, so hopefully not during production.

I would venture to say that their biggest risk with the project is actually the amount of outsourcing to so many different suppliers. It seems to me they might have less control over that network of suppliers than they do over their development of the barrel composite construction. To my way of thinking, it's the suppliers who are potentially the wild cards.

What I'd like to know is (and this may show my lack of knowledge in this area), is that with SO MUCH outsourcing, I wonder if there is lower profit potential for Boeing because so many suppliers have to be paid for their contribution to the project, and they all take a profit percentage, I would imagine.

In other words, if Boeing beats Airbus in a few years in annual sales based on value (when a large portion of those sales is the 787), are they in fact making as much money as they seem when they have to pay out so much more per aircraft for value-added outsourcing and component manufactoring which they did not do themselves?
I come in peace
 
siromega
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:57 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):

What I'd like to know is (and this may show my lack of knowledge in this area), is that with SO MUCH outsourcing, I wonder if there is lower profit potential for Boeing because so many suppliers have to be paid for their contribution to the project, and they all take a profit percentage, I would imagine.

I believe Boeing made a lot of risk sharing agreements with their suppliers. The suppliers would share more of the risk of this plane, but also share more of the reward (profit). Boeing may make less per frame than normal, but given the amount they sold so far, and the fact that Airbus isnt exactly executing on the A350, they dont have much to worry about.
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):
I wonder if there is lower profit potential for Boeing because so many suppliers have to be paid for their contribution to the project

I would imagine not. The cost of the parts from outside suppliers is factored into the cost to build the plane, as it would if it were all done in house. Generally, outsourcing makes the cost cheaper. They purposely pick suppliers who are able to do it cheaper than "the next guy" for whatever reason.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:11 pm

The same reason Airbus is so confident about their planes. Some really smart guys/gals (engineers as they are often known) said..."Hey you know something... I’m pretty sure we can do this...." So long as the guys in suits don’t mess it up, I think Boeing and Airbus will keep this one-up-man-ship going for years to come. All the while they will keep amazing us civil aviation geeks with their new ideas...I don’t wish for failure for either company. In the end, I prefer a yoke over a joystick...but regardless so long as it stays up in the air...its pretty amazing that we all have had the chance to defy the laws of gravity. I couldn’t think of a better law to defy…
www.StopWithtTheaAirbusVsBoeingFights.com
Cheers,
Bingo
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:38 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 14):
the risks with the 707 and 747 are somewhat different, they were not really a technological breakthrough but were from a business viewpoint high risk. the 787 is primarily a technological risk.

The 707 was just as big a technological risk, and 747 comes close. Look at the comet that came out not much before 707 - it was a technological failure.

They've tested all of the technology. It's not like when they put it together, that will be the first time they see if all the new technology works. It is all tested independently, the composites, everything, on a smaller scale. If it is good enough, then they proceed.

Boeing wouldn't put the plane together - sell nearly 500 of them (probably 500 by the time it flies) and spend nearly 10 billion USD on it if they hadn't tested all the new technologies and knew they worked.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
Ken777
Posts: 9023
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 14):
the risks with the 707 and 747 are somewhat different, they were not really a technological breakthrough

I think that the 747 was a significant engineering breakthrough, even if there were no new technologies on par with composites. This is especially true when you consider that the computer you surf the internet with is far more powerful than the few that Boeing would have had when developing the 747. It was drafting boards and slide rulers. Compare that situation to the massive computer systems available to Airbus during the 380 development (even if they failed to use the same software) and the 747 development is pretty impressive.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):
In other words, if Boeing beats Airbus in a few years in annual sales based on value (when a large portion of those sales is the 787), are they in fact making as much money as they seem when they have to pay out so much more per aircraft for value-added outsourcing and component manufactoring which they did not do themselves?

While Boeing will get a smaller slice of the gross margins they will also have reduced costs that fits between gross margin and profits. Amortizing R&D costs will be significantly reduced as will the interest costs related to R&D as well as all of the factories (plus depreciation on the factories).

In other words, I don't think Boeing will be hurting at all with their smaller slice of the pie.
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:27 pm

Boeing has a long history of making military aircraft and that carriers over into the commercial operation. And I mean that by how secret they are keeping things. It's just what they are used to and how they choose to run their business. Now here's the main part that it seems as though almost EVERYONE on this site seems to forget. The only info Boeing releases to the public is the info they WANT to release. Most people on this site live and die by sales numbers and info in press releases on their website, guess what... there's A LOT more to it than that. ABSOLUTELY NO airline, cargo carrier, leasing company etc. go to the Boeing website to get info. They send reps. to the company and have private meetings where they get the real info. The website is for the PUBLIC. Now of course many people on here will disagree with me because they know SO MUCH about the inner workings of Boeing (now if you actually DO work for Boeing, that wasn't directed at you). My roommate spent all summer working closely with Boeing in Seattle so I'm getting this info from him first hand.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:52 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):


I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787. It seems to me they are using a lot of new ideas on one model of plane. Seems kind of risky to me, shouldn't they first try this stuff on a military freighter or something? Is it because most of the ideas have been tried before or do they have a great test program? I'm thinking if the B787 becomes another Comet, Osprey or F111 the company would be ruined as a civilian aircraft producer.

What you need to remember is that there are two categories of risk on a project. One type of risk is engineering risk, where the properties of a particular system are not well enough understood/unsuitably designed (over or under build) or too complex to make the system behave properly. Good examples of this would be something akin to the Comet, but also perhaps engineering failures like the weight problems on the 346. Prior to the 707 Boeing also had their fair share of these types of problems.

The entire certification process that both Airbus and Boeing used grew out of the need for standardized testing for planes build during World War II. Boeing took that system and ran with it applying it to the 707 in particular. That system is designed to look for any kind of engineering fault, exposed it immediately prior to a plane going into proudction.

The second category is production problems. Production problems are a much greater risk to the company because they completely idle the company's production systems at enormous loss of face and capital.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):

I would venture to say that their biggest risk with the project is actually the amount of outsourcing to so many different suppliers. It seems to me they might have less control over that network of suppliers than they do over their development of the barrel composite construction. To my way of thinking, it's the suppliers who are potentially the wild cards.

There are a lot of risks here. Boeing has the longest civil aviation track record of any current airplane company. That gives them a enormous edge when it comes to engineering risk assessments, but also can leave them blind to problems that come from changing the current system. Boeing learned that when the 737 and 747 lines had to idle back in the 90s because of a really bad production snafu.

As far as the entire system goes however, just like standardization brought advantages to mass producing airlines, Boeing has a enormous history of successfully integrating in diverse teams. In a very real sese, this is also a change forced by the military, since Boeing has experience integrating these systems because of their Prime contractor status of very complex engineering projects like the Space Shuttle.

The last thing that is a positive from this is that I have personally found that sometimes risk sharing partners are much more agile in responses to changing circumstances (esp if the circumstances indicate opportunity) simply because it is in their best interest to improve on their systems, or numbers of units sold, or operating efficiency so they can prosper doing business. In the long run, agile production systems should be much better at improvement then monolithic large systems.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787. It seems to me they are using a lot of new ideas on one model of plane. Seems kind of risky to me, shouldn't they first try this stuff on a military freighter or something? Is it because most of the ideas have been tried before or do they have a great test program? I'm thinking if the B787 becomes another Comet, Osprey or F111 the company would be ruined as a civilian aircraft producer.

Simple. It's Boeing.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
kwcarolma
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:57 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:34 pm

For me, Boeing's confident in B787 comes with a solid reason which's already proven to be successful 10 years ago. Remember the philosophy employed by Boeing to design its mighty B777? That's "Working Together"! Boeing invited its customers to come, sit around and let them to talk about what kind of aircraft they want to buy. And with constant interaction with these potential customer it isn't a surprise that Boeing built something that make its customers happy and willing to open their cheque book. I believe Boeing employed such preposition on its B787 program as well and hence created an aircraft that would impress the airlines.

However Airbus did it the other way around...They launched the A350 and glued down everything before selling to its customers. But not many were impressed as they felt they're being dragged around. It wasn't a short period of time before Airbus realised it isn't going to work and hence "forced" to redesign the plane completely, which's something called A350XWB.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
While Boeing will get a smaller slice of the gross margins they will also have reduced costs that fits between gross margin and profits. Amortizing R&D costs will be significantly reduced as will the interest costs related to R&D as well as all of the factories (plus depreciation on the factories).

In other words, I don't think Boeing will be hurting at all with their smaller slice of the pie.

Thanks very much to all who answered my question about profit sharing when outsourcing. Since it was a diversion from the thread topic, I decided to ask it in a separate thread. Then I tried to edit that portion of my post here (Reply 17), but it was too late. But very informed responses, thank you.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 23):
ABSOLUTELY NO airline, cargo carrier, leasing company etc. go to the Boeing website to get info. They send reps. to the company and have private meetings where they get the real info.

So they don't refer to Randy's blog for their info, do they?

Quoting AirFRNT (Reply 24):
As far as the entire system goes however, just like standardization brought advantages to mass producing airlines, Boeing has a enormous history of successfully integrating in diverse teams. In a very real sese, this is also a change forced by the military, since Boeing has experience integrating these systems because of their Prime contractor status of very complex engineering projects like the Space Shuttle.

The last thing that is a positive from this is that I have personally found that sometimes risk sharing partners are much more agile in responses to changing circumstances (esp if the circumstances indicate opportunity) simply because it is in their best interest to improve on their systems, or numbers of units sold, or operating efficiency so they can prosper doing business. In the long run, agile production systems should be much better at improvement then monolithic large systems.

Very interesting. Thank you.
I come in peace
 
CPHGuard
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:58 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:31 pm

I surely hope and beleive that the 787 will be a milestone in civil aviation.

That said, i do beleive that there have been, and still are a lot of risks involved for Boeing, with this new technology.

Composites has a lot of advantages, but it also has some disadvantages, and there have been examples of composites failing in flight on military aircraft.

I also remember af 747 that went into a steep dive, and when the aircraft landed, they found out that the wings were bend 5 inches upward. I dont know what would happen to a composite wing if this occured, but i dont beleive that composite has the same ability to bend like aluminium. So either nothing would happen, or the wings would snap off.

Still i beleive that Boeing seems so confident about this technology, that they surely have taken all these scenarios into consideration.

It will be very interesting to see, if Boeing will be able to keep the 787 on schedule. I don't think they will, primarily due to all these new technologies they are using.
But once when it arrives, i think we will se a great aeroplane.

Regards
Thomas
 
cubastar
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 28):
I also remember af 747 that went into a steep dive, and when the aircraft landed, they found out that the wings were bend 5 inches upward.

I thought that it was a PanAm 707 that lost control for some reason while crossing the Atlantic. Supposedly during the dive and subsequent pullout there was a "permanent positive set" to the wings. I heard that it remained in the fleet after thorough inspection.......supposedly became the fastest of all of their 707's. Probably a rumour. Any ex PanAm crew members out there?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22947
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 27):
So they don't refer to Randy's blog for their info, do they?

They may read it, but I'd be shocked (and, frankly, dismayed) if they gave it anything near the weight some folks on this forum do.

Many companies have found blogging to be a new PR and marketing outlet. While airline customers play a small role in the determination of an airline's fleet decisions, they do play a role. And for those customers, a blog is a convenient way for them to learn things, even if those things are slanted when they come from a corporate-sponsored source.

It costs a little of Randy's time and a little of Boeing's money to make the blog available to those airline customers. But if that time and money return a favorable response to an airline's question to their customer's on how they view the 787 or the 777 or the 747 programs, that has a favorable impact (even if a small one) on that airline's decision-making process.
 
787engineer
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:08 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787

Well for one thing, if Boeing doesn't seem confident in the success of the 787, how can they expect the customers to be? Airbus was very confident on the success of the A380 back in 2004. I'm not in any way saying that the same issues/delays will happen to the 787. But I think it's pretty standard for the manufacturer to seem confident in their own product to help marketing/sales. . . that and the fact that Boeing has been designing and building new airplanes for decades.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 16):
and I'm still curious on repairing skin damage...

http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2005/May/854/1
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:03 am

I think one thing to note is that Boeing is promoting how far advanced the 787 and how radically different it is with all of its new technology so that it will get more orders. Yes the 787 is innovative, but it is no where as innovative as the 707 or 747 were. The 707 was the first Boeing commercial jet. The 747 was twice as large as anything else built to date.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 19):


I would imagine not. The cost of the parts from outside suppliers is factored into the cost to build the plane, as it would if it were all done in house. Generally, outsourcing makes the cost cheaper. They purposely pick suppliers who are able to do it cheaper than "the next guy" for whatever reason.

It isn't exclusively because others can do it cheaper. Others can often to it better. There are companies that specialize in making certain systems and therefore make them and sell them to Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Lockheed, Northrup Grumman, Gulfstream and others. The engineering expertise and resources that some suppliers have surpass what Boeing has. I've worked on integrated drive generators at a contractor for example. A company could design one of those from scratch, but it would be expensive and probably far worse than one that uses technology that has been developed over the past 50 years at a single company.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
PlanenutzTB
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:29 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
It seems to me they are using a lot of new ideas on one model of plane.

I'm sure the experts here will correct me if I'm wrong, but while it seems there is a lot of new technology used in the 787, it is actually old technology when compared to milatary aircraft Boeing has produced. Has't Boeing just applied all the technological advances they have proven experience in from military aircraft and applied it to a commercial aircraft? As mention this is nothing new for Boeing as the 707 came out of the milatary R&D that went into the B-52.

I'm sure the top secret aircraft technology being developed for the milatary today will be applied to Boeing commercial aircraft 20 years from now.
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:57 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Thread starter):
I am just curious on peoples thoughts on why Boeing is confident on B787.

Who said that Boeing ever felt confident about 787.
The only guy who must feel confident in aviation is Big Mouth
 
gearup
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 33):
I'm sure the experts here will correct me if I'm wrong, but while it seems there is a lot of new technology used in the 787, it is actually old technology when compared to milatary aircraft Boeing has produced. Has't Boeing just applied all the technological advances they have proven experience in from military aircraft and applied it to a commercial aircraft? As mention this is nothing new for Boeing as the 707 came out of the milatary R&D that went into the B-52.

I'm sure the top secret aircraft technology being developed for the milatary today will be applied to Boeing commercial aircraft 20 years from now.

You are quite correct, there is not much on the 787 that Boeing has not done before (if any). Of course making it successful in a commercial aircraft is a new step. They might have a bit of tweaking to do before and after EIS and there may be small delays but I have no doubt these new technologies will transfer well into commercial use just as you said and it might even be safe to say that the 747/777/A380 aircraft will be last ones to use aluminum alloys in the construction of the pressurised cabin sections. I would say that the biggest 'threat' to the EIS of the 787 could relate to logistics and supply chain concerns and even then this risk is small and not related to the design of the aircraft. Yes, we can all look forward to that first run down the runway towards first flight very close to the predicted date.

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
User avatar
AA777223
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:12 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):
777),

I am somewhat curious of some of the parallels that are being drawn here. I see the allusion to the 707 as the first highly successful passenger jet aircraft. The 747 was also certainly a departure as it was over twice the size of any previous passenger aircraft. The idea I have a little harder time accepting is the 777. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Triple. I fly on them whenever I can and do see some of the great technological advances represented in its design and construction, such as the most powerful jet engines in history, the worlds largest twin, very efficient aerofoil, and a complete computer design. I do question, however, if this truly represents a true technological leap, like those of the 707, or 747. I think and argument could be made for say the 757/767 the first family of aircraft with such compatibility as a same type rating, later to be emulated by airbus with the A330/340 family. I am interested to hear your opinions on the matter.

[Edited 2006-11-24 20:34:25]
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:55 am

Boeing did indeed bet the farm on both 707 and 747. One thing to remember, Boeing bit the bullet and made the 707 slightly wider than the DC-8, thereby making the KC-135 and 707 have different fuselage widths.

The original 747 problems were the engines, which were practically new technology then.

The 757 was never the success that it should have been. Its capabilities were more than the airlines required, and now we can see that its role has kept changing to a middle-market transantlantic flyer, a role few would have guessed a few years ago.

What's going to happen with the 787? No one here could probably even guess what new roles or capabilities might be found years after service introduction. Airlines might find that a CFRP fuselage helps out their maintenance bill greatly, and might start demanding a NB equivalent shortly afterwards.

I always recall the true reasons for the success of jet travel. The engines were much cheaper to maintain than the piston engines, and had much improved time on wing. Plus, the speed that jet travel afforded allowed the airlines to maintain the same schedule with less airplanes and workers. All and all, if the economics of the jet engine weren't there, we would have no jet travel today. Same with the 787, if there isn't much improvement in the economics, the 787 will become just another airplane.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Why Is Boeing Confident On 787

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
It costs a little of Randy's time and a little of Boeing's money to make the blog available to those airline customers. But if that time and money return a favorable response to an airline's question to their customer's on how they view the 787 or the 777 or the 747 programs, that has a favorable impact (even if a small one) on that airline's decision-making process.

I suspect he doesn't write it himself, but some peon does who reports to him, and he approves it. It seems aimed at the Aviation press, perhaps individual investors looking for investment info, and pretty much anybody else who will listen... But I don't think it influences the big boys much with regard to choosing which A/C they will buy.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 36):
I am somewhat curious of some of the parallels that are being drawn here. I see the allusion to the 707 as the first highly successful passenger jet aircraft. The 747 was also certainly a departure as it was over twice the size of any previous passenger aircraft. The idea I have a little harder time accepting is the 777. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Triple. I fly on them whenever I can and do see some of the great technological advances represented in its design and construction, such as the most powerful jet engines in history, the worlds largest twin, very efficient aerofoil, and a complete computer design. I do question, however, if this truly represents a true technological leap

I think the leap to a large twin with ETOPS capability was a leap of faith with regard to both the reliability of engines as well as confidence that the certifying bodies would allow it.

But I think what's most innovative about it is it's mission, or modality, it's "concept," if you will, of going to a very large, long range design as a twin rather than a quad. Meanwhile, Airbus was applying, I'm sure, cutting edge technology to the 340 in roughly the same time period, but in terms of the A/C's "mission," (large a/c, long range, 4 engine technology) they were behind the curve.

Frankly, I don't think the 747's intro was that spectacular with regard to technology, either, but it was it's SCALE that made IT a game changer. It seems, size not withstanding, like an evolution of the 707, really, from a technological standpoint, except perhaps for the high bypass turbo fans.
I come in peace

Who is online