LipeGIG
Topic Author
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TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:17 am

TAM received today approval from ANAC to begin regular daily flights to Italy as Brazil and Italy agreed in upgrade their bilateral.

As 7 frequencies are allocated to Varig and ANAC authorized 7 new to BRA and another 7 to TAM, due to a Judge's decision to keep untouched the RG frequencies, ANAC tried to improve bilateral (same as France-Brazil) in order to allow more flights.

TAM is doing the necessary steps in order to announce MXP as a new destination very soon.

One big question is concerning to aircrafts as they already announced GIG-CDG using 2 A332 (or M11) out of 3 M11 leased from Boeing. They have another 2 A332 to be received on the 3rd quarter 07 and rumors about 1 or 2 772ER (ex-RG) but for sure they have only one plane available nowadays effective march.

This new route will connect Sao Paulo to Milan and will be their 3rd european destination.

For sure Tam now is under an aggressive expansion.


Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
XA744
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting LipeGIG,replyving a 0:
For sure Tam now is under an aggressive expansion.

Indeed, they are actually rushing it !!!

TAM will be achieving a very strong positioning in the whole of Europe very soon. Will there be any room left for VARIG to make a come back across the Atlantic ???

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:42 pm

Tks, Lipe.

The information is posted on

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061123/nyth017.html?.v=70

I think the increase in the Italy-Brazil makes sense, especially because nowadays there is a multitude of Italian charters from Italy to Northeast Brazil, as reported under this link: http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3108206/
There is certainly room for more regular flights Italy-Brazil.

After CDG, LHR and MXP, what could be TAM's fourth destination in Europe?FRA only with an alliance. MAD is quite saturated with many players. LIS is TAP territory. My bets are on AMS, considering TAM has a partership with KL, or ZRH, a market TAM already operated in the past and has room for more flights. Perhaps before any new destination we could see double daily LHR late in 2007.

Rgs,

[Edited 2006-11-24 09:51:37]
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
One big question is concerning to aircrafts as they already announced GIG-CDG using 2 A332 (or M11) out of 3 M11 leased from Boeing

How long will these MD11's remain in TAM's fleet? I assume it is temporary.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:50 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 3):
How long will these MD11's remain in TAM's fleet? I assume it is temporary.

Temprary solution until TAM gets the B77W frames. The first will be delivered early 2008.

Rgs,
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
Temprary solution until TAM gets the B77W frames. The first will be delivered early 2008.

Thanks for the info. Atleast there's another MD11 pax operator for the next year and a half.  cool 
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
JJMNGR
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:30 pm

CDG will have 03 flights/day from 12JAN07 on.

The 03 of them will DEP GRU and one of the will have a stop at GIG. Same thing backwards. The aircraft on this operation will mix between MD11 and A332.

The 3rd MD11 will operate JJ8094/JJ8091 from MAR07 on.

MXP will be operated by A332.

The B772 is just speculation.

Brgds
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
The 3rd MD11 will operate JJ8094/JJ8091 from MAR07 on

Which flight routes are these?

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
The 03 of them will DEP GRU and one of the will have a stop at GIG.

The route will be GRU-GIG-CDG-GIG-GRU, correct? It means the first TAM widebody operating GRU-GIG.

Rgs,
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
As 7 frequencies are allocated to Varig and ANAC authorized 7 new to BRA and another 7 to TAM, due to a Judge's decision to keep untouched the RG frequencies, ANAC tried to improve bilateral (same as France-Brazil) in order to allow more flights.

This means there is now 21 weekly frequencies available from each side between Italy and Brazil, apart from all those charter flights to NE?

Assuming that RG, BRA and JJ keep 7 frequencies now, what is AZ going to do with more 7 frequecies? They only operate daily to GRU from MXP, on a market that demands more capacity!!! Although they have big issues to deal right now, is AZ planning any expansion, maybe FCO or even more MXP?

Today, there are some international routes from Brazil that really could use some competition! Destinations such as, YYZ, AMS, ZRH, LIS and JNB come to mind. Specially Toronto, which AC has been ruling for quite some time!!! Any hopes for some change here?

I understand that places such as PTY, which also falls into the same category, rely mostly on CM's hub for connections than on local traffic, so I'll keep that one out!

[Edited 2006-11-24 12:06:16]
 
Knightsofmalta
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
After CDG, LHR and MXP, what could be TAM's fourth destination in Europe?FRA only with an alliance. MAD is quite saturated with many players. LIS is TAP territory. My bets are on AMS, considering TAM has a partership with KL, or ZRH, a market TAM already operated in the past and has room for more flights. Perhaps before any new destination we could see double daily LHR late in 2007.

My vote goes to ZRH please. TAM used to fly fly to ZRH. Anybody know why they stopped?
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 9):
My vote goes to ZRH please. TAM used to fly fly to ZRH. Anybody know why they stopped?

Do they still have the traffic rights & frequencies to fly to FRA & ZRH ???? IIRC, they used to go daily nonstop to FRA continuing into ZRH.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
This means there is now 21 weekly frequencies available from each side between Italy and Brazil, apart from all those charter flights to NE?



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
what is AZ going to do with more 7 frequecies?



Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
is AZ planning any expansion, maybe FCO or even more MXP?

Correct, apparently AZ will get the 7 extra frequencies and is planning to increase flights to GRU to double daily. No indication whether the extra flights will be MXP-GRU or FCO-GRU, or even perhaps MXP-GIG.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 10):
Do they [TAM] still have the traffic rights & frequencies to fly to FRA & ZRH ????

Yes. TAM could fly GRU-ZRH nonstop, but considering TAM's agreement with KL I hope they operate GRU-AMS next.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
Which flight routes are these?

JJ8094 GRU-MIA daily-light
JJ8091 MIA-GRU overnight flight

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
This means there is now 21 weekly frequencies available from each side between Italy and Brazil, apart from all those charter flights to NE?

Correct.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
Assuming that RG, BRA and JJ keep 7 frequencies now, what is AZ going to do with more 7 frequecies? They only operate daily to GRU from MXP, on a market that demands more capacity!!! Although they have big issues to deal right now, is AZ planning any expansion, maybe FCO or even more MXP?

They have plans for a flight out of FCO to begin during 2007.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 8):
Today, there are some international routes from Brazil that really could use some competition! Destinations such as, YYZ, AMS, ZRH, LIS and JNB come to mind. Specially Toronto, which AC has been ruling for quite some time!!! Any hopes for some change here?

Dellatorre, only for JNB with Ocean Air. I doubt LIS or YYZ gets a competitor in the near future. AMS and ZRH, may be, but not so soon.

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 9):
My vote goes to ZRH please. TAM used to fly fly to ZRH. Anybody know why they stopped?

Knightsofmalta, ZRH was a leg on their FRA flight. Due to the lack of a partnership to allow connections and the strong reaction from LH and RG to protect Germany market, Tam dropped GRU-FRA-ZRH flight (at that time was not profitable).

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
MXP will be operated by A332.

Hi Richard, thanks for sharing. So Tam will need to get at least 1 aircraft to run this flight, or the 2 new A332 expected to be received during 2007, correct ?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
After CDG, LHR and MXP, what could be TAM's fourth destination in Europe?FRA only with an alliance. MAD is quite saturated with many players. LIS is TAP territory. My bets are on AMS, considering TAM has a partership with KL, or ZRH, a market TAM already operated in the past and has room for more flights. Perhaps before any new destination we could see double daily LHR late in 2007.

Hardi, i believe that if Tam can get additional frequencies to London, we could see a 2x daily service, as well as another service to US. I doubt Tam could fly to LIS any time soon, Mr. Bologna was very clear on 3Q Results Conference Call, the only markets they could see as a destination is MXP, more service to London and Frankfurt, if they can get a local partner.

Now lets see if they will announce also the GIG-MIA.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
jog
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
one of the will have a stop at GIG. Same thing backwards. The aircraft on this operation will mix between MD11 and A332.

Didn't you say once that these short flights are far too expensive for the big birds? Does the demand really justify these flights on a daily basis (most passengers will probably get off at GIG as there are two direct flights to GRU almost at the same time)? I would have guessed that a flight to EZE, MAO, or REC would make a much better use of the aircraft, letting them operate GRU-CDG-GIG-EZE/MAO/REC-GIG-CDG-GRU. Or is it for the MD11s not so important as they stay only 1.5 years with TAM anyway and afterwards get converted into freighters?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Hi Richard, thanks for sharing. So Tam will need to get at least 1 aircraft to run this flight, or the 2 new A332 expected to be received during 2007, correct ?

Or they change JJ8099 into a daylight flight. Three aircrafts on the ground at CDG for half a day must be incredible expensive...

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
I hope they operate GRU-AMS next.

I hope that, too. But I unfortunately do not believe it Sad While they are codesharing with AF on flights to ZRH and FRA now (BTW: How can TAM put MUC south of ZRH in their route map?), they do not even have a codeshare agreement to AMS, yet.

If RG does not recover fast within the next 6-9 months I rather see a new partnership between LH and JJ. JJ could offer to LH what RG currently cannot, and LH could offer a lot to JJ what AF cannot at CDG.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
Or they change JJ8099 into a daylight flight. Three aircrafts on the ground at CDG for half a day must be incredible expensive...

It is expensive but you can be sure that TAM makes a lot of profit out of the CDG flights. If they put one of the flights daylight you would certainly scare premium red-eye traffic. AF does not operate its second CDG-GRU red-eye simply because of acft shortage.

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
Didn't you say once that these short flights are far too expensive for the big birds?

Perhaps because of acft rotation and maintenance in GRU. But I'm sot sure of the reason. Or GRU is so powerful that it also provides a boost to the GIG flight? Just speculation. But I agree that deployment of the frame on GIG-EZE or GIG-BSB or GIG-REC would be more efficient than the short GRU-GIG leg.

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
If RG does not recover fast within the next 6-9 months I rather see a new partnership between LH and JJ. JJ could offer to LH what RG currently cannot, and LH could offer a lot to JJ what AF cannot at CDG.

RG is about to announce a number of domestic fliogjts, it is just awaiting for authorisation from INFRAERO.

Rgs,
 
AirSpare
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:35 pm

Felipe, do you think TAM join an alliance or do you think they will continue to codeshare?

If you were going to make the decision, Star Alliance or One World?

We knew these (approximate) routes were coming, nice to see them launched.

michael
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 15):
you were going to make the decision, Star Alliance or One World?

Most certainly SkyTeam or One World. But TAM said many times it is not interested in world alliance, and better off with bilateral agreements.

Rgs,
 
pacifique75
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:34 pm

I wonder why no other airline (apparently) such as TAM fly the LIS route??? It has been mentioned it is not likely to be flown by TAM and I simply find it intriguing considering the large brazilian community living in Portugal and also the portuguese in Brazil. Varig used to fly daily to LIS and stopped a while before discontinuing LHR, for instance.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Pacifique75 (Reply 17):
I wonder why no other airline (apparently) such as TAM fly the LIS route??? It has been mentioned it is not likely to be flown by TAM and I simply find it intriguing considering the large brazilian community living in Portugal and also the portuguese in Brazil. Varig used to fly daily to LIS and stopped a while before discontinuing LHR, for instance.

The market is pretty much covered by TAP and is not as high-yelding as other European destinations. ZRH, AMS and FRA would generate much more profits than LIS. There is very strong demand for Y class but Cargo and Premium passangers aren't really what Portugal is about!!! Thus for LIS was one of the first routes to be axed from RG networks... It was simply a money loser for RG!!!!

[Edited 2006-11-24 16:04:30]
 
pacifique75
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:16 am

Thanks, Dellatorre, for your views... I know in general we just tend to assume there will be a market based on Y class pax and reality in the airline business is not so straight forward. Obrigado!
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 18):
The market is pretty much covered by TAP and is not as high-yelding as other European destinations. ZRH, AMS and FRA would generate much more profits than LIS. There is very strong demand for Y class but Cargo and Premium passangers aren't really what Portugal is about!!! Thus for LIS was one of the first routes to be axed from RG networks... It was simply a money loser for RG!!!!

Forgot that BRA also flies to LIS 2x week combined with MAD, although that is basically based on Tourists traffic.

What's up with BRA anyways? Aren't they gonna increase those frequencies? I think right now in Brazil they have the worst domestic & international strategy so far. Offering only 2 frequecies to both MAD & LIS is definitely not appealing to Business pax. Not to mention their domestic network,which is very unattractive to the general pax since the majority of their flights don't operate on a daily basis.

For example, flight from Vitoria (VIX), my hometown to GIG and GRU operate only once or twice a week. To be honest, i don't even know what days of the week they come here. It just doesn't seem to be regular, you know!!!

That's why they have a quite extensive domestic network, but mostly 1, 2 or 3 times a week services. TBH, that's what I call a charter airline disguised as a regular operator.......
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Pacifique75 (Reply 17):
Varig used to fly daily to LIS and stopped a while before discontinuing LHR, for instance.

As said above, Portugal is not a premium market, which is what TAM is about. Dont forget that LIS was RG's worst performing intercontinental flight.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 15):
Felipe, do you think TAM join an alliance or do you think they will continue to codeshare?

I really believe they will keep the same strategy: code-shares.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 15):
If you were going to make the decision, Star Alliance or One World?

Sky Team IMO, they depend more on Paris than Miami or Frankfurt. SkyTeam can provide the connections to the US market thru one of their gateways, OW cannot do this at CDG, and the O&D on CDG route is even higher than MIA. JFK and LHR are O&D markets. Star Alliance with Tam will help a lot Star, but it's not so good for TAM.

Quoting Pacifique75 (Reply 19):
Thanks, Dellatorre, for your views... I know in general we just tend to assume there will be a market based on Y class pax and reality in the airline business is not so straight forward. Obrigado!

TAP position is Brazil is even stronger, they sold every day around 150 to 200 C seats, so it's a good business market, the problem is that, TP position with an extensive network is a barrier for new players, and Tam will need to focus on the O&D market. Also, fares to LIS are not so high as MIA or JFK (TP sells C R/T for US$ 2,500 while a R/T to US costs US$ 4,500) due to the competition with AF and IB, and it's easy to connect.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 20):
What's up with BRA anyways? Aren't they gonna increase those frequencies? I think right now in Brazil they have the worst domestic & international strategy so far. Offering only 2 frequecies to both MAD & LIS is definitely not appealing to Business pax. Not to mention their domestic network,which is very unattractive to the general pax since the majority of their flights don't operate on a daily basis.

BRA need to focus a market. They look for the business traveller on GIG-CGN, but even their 767-200 used on GRU/GIG-MAD/LIS doesn't keep a single C seat (the 767-300ER used for CGN and MXP routes keep 24C IIRC). Their domestic network is a shame, they use to fly to several destinations without even a daily frequency as your excellent comment. They should fly to a few destinations with more frequencies, just like WebJet is doing very well on GIG/POA/CWB/SSA markets.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 20):
That's why they have a quite extensive domestic network, but mostly 1, 2 or 3 times a week services. TBH, that's what I call a charter airline disguised as a regular operator.......

A crazy airline for sure!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
BRA need to focus a market. They look for the business traveller on GIG-CGN, but even their 767-200 used on GRU/GIG-MAD/LIS doesn't keep a single C seat (the 767-300ER used for CGN and MXP routes keep 24C IIRC). Their domestic network is a shame, they use to fly to several destinations without even a daily frequency as your excellent comment. They should fly to a few destinations with more frequencies, just like WebJet is doing very well on GIG/POA/CWB/SSA markets.

Agree 100 %
 
JJMNGR
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:01 am

You all that replied to me:

Once MIA JJ8094/JJ8091 will be operated by MD11 from march on, there will be an A332 free to operate MXP. Initially will be operated by one aircraft only. It means one of the legs will be daylight flight, still not decided which leg.

MXP was scheduled to start in MARCH but in fact will start 08MAY07.

Yes, to operate GRU/GIG/GRU with a widebody is really expensive but we will not loose the chance to start flying the 3rd flight to CDG. There is a big demand for CDG in SAO so it is better to start the flight in SAO and complement the flight in GIG and just put the aircraft in GIG to start to feed it. I think in future, GIG will run its own.

LIS is out of discussions. TAM will not fly to LIS. At least in very near future, no way. Just if this market changes...something happens with TAP...who knows...but the way the scenario is now, no way of flying there.

Felipe, by the way...tks agian for the chance we had for lauch together last week. donpt forget...next time you pay the bill at JFK...

Cheers,
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):
Felipe, by the way...tks agian for the chance we had for lauch together last week. donpt forget...next time you pay the bill at JFK...

Thanks also Richard, Fogo de Chão is always a good place! Next time the bill at NYC will be mine !

I will really going on 02Dec.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):
Once MIA JJ8094/JJ8091 will be operated by MD11 from march on, there will be an A332 free to operate MXP. Initially will be operated by one aircraft only. It means one of the legs will be daylight flight, still not decided which leg.

So GIG-MIA (or GIG-JFK) is postponed at least for the end of 2007, am i right ?

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):
Once MIA JJ8094/JJ8091 will be operated by MD11 from march on, there will be an A332 free to operate MXP. Initially will be operated by one aircraft only. It means one of the legs will be daylight flight, still not decided which leg.

So GIG-MIA (or GIG-JFK) is postponed at least for the end of 2007, am i right ?

I was curious about the same thing. What is the latest for MIA-GIG?
a.
 
JJMNGR
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:07 am

It is scheduled for end 2007 the 04th flight to MIA with A332 and it is going to be GIG/MIA/GIG. But this might change during the year course...we can´t predict market and if we can get more planes before...also this is what is budged but seems to me and this is my particular opinion that instead of GIG/MIA/GIG, this could be GIG/JFK/GIG.

This because Rio de Janeiro has a much closer and historical relationship with New York than with Miami. But this is just my opinion and in fact I think it might have chances to be changed.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 27):
Rio de Janeiro has a much closer and historical relationship with New York than with Miami

I can't get your comment. Please name one historical relationship between Rio and JFK???

I don't think there is any US city stronger than MIA on traffic to Brazil..


In another note, I highly doubt JJ will start any other European destination any time soon.. LHR was basically introduced because of RG fall out.. the same for MXP. If RG was still there, you wouldn't be seeing JJ. on these routes.

For US, the same for JFK...

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
If RG does not recover fast within the next 6-9 months I rather see a new partnership between LH and JJ. JJ could offer to LH what RG currently cannot, and LH could offer a lot to JJ what AF cannot at CDG

Partnerships with LH and AF at the same time... difficult to see that happening..

Rgs,

Neo
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 27):
This because Rio de Janeiro has a much closer and historical relationship with New York than with Miami. But this is just my opinion and in fact I think it might have chances to be changed.

Historical connections there may be, but those don't matter any more - that was then. No US city has stronger business and cultural ties to Rio de Janeiro than Miami.
a.
 
PPVRA
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 6):
MXP will be operated by A332.



Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):

Once MIA JJ8094/JJ8091 will be operated by MD11 from march on, there will be an A332 free to operate MXP. Initially will be operated by one aircraft only. It means one of the legs will be daylight flight, still not decided which leg.

GRU-MXP is getting close to the limit on the A332, no? I'm thinking mostly in terms of a full load and encountering winds on the flight.

If the flight proves succesfull enough, maybe TAM would send the MD-11s?

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
Or is it for the MD11s not so important as they stay only 1.5 years with TAM anyway and afterwards get converted into freighters?

Is there any chance these MD-11s will go back to Boeing and then be sent to another carrier for pax operations? Maybe Finnair or World? My guess is you are right and they will be converted to freighters but I was wondering if there is a possibility another pax carrier might want to add them.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 31):
Is there any chance these MD-11s will go back to Boeing and then be sent to another carrier for pax operations?

Unfortunately not Trijets, they are scheduled for cargo conversion by 2008 also.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 31):
My guess is you are right and they will be converted to freighters but I was wondering if there is a possibility another pax carrier might want to add them.

I doubt, Aeroflot will need them.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
Historical connections there may be, but those don't matter any more - that was then. No US city has stronger business and cultural ties to Rio de Janeiro than Miami.

Mark, business links like the stronger insurance market in Brazil and also, many Asset Managements and Investment Banks are in Rio. Also, if you look for the biggest NYSE Brazilian ADR companies, they are mostly in Rio (Petrobras, Vale do Rio Doce and Telemar are the top 3). Also, NYC get a strong base of immigrants from Rio working on banks, broker dealers and other financial market institutions (now including myself). For sure links with Miami are also strong and IMHO, Tam decision will be made looking for their Real Origin & Destination from Rio (as well as some other Brazilian cities that could be connected thru GIG) during the next year.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 27):
It is scheduled for end 2007 the 04th flight to MIA with A332 and it is going to be GIG/MIA/GIG

Thanks for the info.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
mindscape
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:28 pm

RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Jog (Reply 13):
If RG does not recover fast within the next 6-9 months I rather see a new partnership between LH and JJ. JJ could offer to LH what RG currently cannot, and LH could offer a lot to JJ what AF cannot at CDG.

Hello JOG. Can you please develop a little bit more your point of view regarding LH offering JJ more at FRA than AF at CDG ?
 
MAH4546
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:58 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 32):

Mark, business links like the stronger insurance market in Brazil and also, many Asset Managements and Investment Banks are in Rio.

Yes, they are. And the US headquarters of many those asset management companies LatAm division, such as UBS and BNP Paribas, are on Brickell Avenue, not Wall Street. Although the I-Banks are in NYC.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):
Once MIA JJ8094/JJ8091 will be operated by MD11 from march on, there will be an A332 free to operate MXP. Initially will be operated by one aircraft only. It means one of the legs will be daylight flight, still not decided which leg.

MXP daylight will not be good busienss. It is a pitty that TAM was not better prepared to sieze the moment of RG's downfall. TAM could have started MXP already in January red-eye if it was bette prepared.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 24):
There is a big demand for CDG in SAO so it is better to start the flight in SAO and complement the flight in GIG and just put the aircraft in GIG to start to feed it. I think in future, GIG will run its own.

So you confirm that TAM GIG-CDG needs the GRU leg to boost the loads and yields of the flight? It means that now GIG-CDG could not stand alone, correct? So why AF keeps such strong results in its GIG-CDG? No doubt, GRU still has much higher yieldings and could even cope with a 3rd GRU-CDG if needed...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
Historical connections there may be, but those don't matter any more - that was then. No US city has stronger business and cultural ties to Rio de Janeiro than Miami.

100% correct.

Rgs,
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:15 pm

Contrary to market trends and popular demand, I am glad it is gonna be daylight. I can not sleep on planes, no matter the class I am flying.

BTW. Even with a daylight flight I don't think TAM will be really hurt. AZ is a weaker player anyway. Why do you people think they've choosen MXP over other Southern European destinations such as MAD or LIS? TAM thinks it is better positioned to fight AZ rather than IB or TP.
 
PPVRA
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
So you confirm that TAM GIG-CDG needs the GRU leg to boost the loads and yields of the flight? It means that now GIG-CDG could not stand alone, correct? So why AF keeps such strong results in its GIG-CDG? No doubt, GRU still has much higher yieldings and could even cope with a 3rd GRU-CDG if needed...

I don't think that's what he said at all. I think what JJMNGR meant by that is that GRU-CDG is more attractive than GIG-CDG but if they had the flexibility (i.e. aircraft) to do GIG-CDG, they certainly would.

Maybe JJMNGR can confirm this for us.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
So you confirm that TAM GIG-CDG needs the GRU leg to boost the loads and yields of the flight? It means that now GIG-CDG could not stand alone, correct? So why AF keeps such strong results in its GIG-CDG? No doubt, GRU still has much higher yieldings and could even cope with a 3rd GRU-CDG if needed...

I really can't agree that Tam cannot fill the flight. It's clear to me that Rio demand as well as the connections now available will also allow Tam to sell more GRU flights for SAO market. And note that up to this date, the flight is only uploaded as GIG-CDG, Tam has just yesterday begin the marketing on Rio's newspapers.

Off course when you begin a new flight, all fares are available and it's better than buy an already 70 to 80% booked flight.

Tam decision to begin this service was taken because they know the power of the market, or as per Hardi words, they just begin a 3rd GRU-CDG.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 37):
I don't think that's what he said at all. I think what JJMNGR meant by that is that GRU-CDG is more attractive than GIG-CDG but if they had the flexibility (i.e. aircraft) to do GIG-CDG, they certainly would.

Agree with you. I believe they could begin a GIG-SSA service during the day or even a GIG-MAO. But Tam could need the A332 (or M11) to rotate with MXP A332.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):
MXP daylight will not be good busienss. It is a pitty that TAM was not better prepared to sieze the moment of RG's downfall. TAM could have started MXP already in January red-eye if it was bette prepared.

Hardi, i believe if the flight depart GRU at 20:00 will arrive MXP closer to 10:25. Departing 12:30 from MXP will be not so bad (i remember you that AZ plane departs GRU around 17:25). Tam probably will need another plane during 2 hours to run this flight (rotation probably with another route)

AZ GRU 1725 MXP 0725
JJ GRU 2125 MXP 1125

AZ MXP 2145 GRU 0640
JJ MXP 1305 GRU 2200

Tam keep the advantage in Brazil to allow a late departure also considering their network. AZ with no doubt offer a better departure time at MXP. Tam runs JFK during some time with a single plane, and i believe as soon as they receive the 2 brand new A332, one will be used to allow red-eye flights.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 28):
Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 27):
Rio de Janeiro has a much closer and historical relationship with New York than with Miami

I can't get your comment. Please name one historical relationship between Rio and JFK???

I don't think there is any US city stronger than MIA on traffic to Brazil..


In another note, I highly doubt JJ will start any other European destination any time soon.. LHR was basically introduced because of RG fall out.. the same for MXP. If RG was still there, you wouldn't be seeing JJ. on these routes.

Cariocas prefer JFK than MIA...just that.

Your perception about TAM flights to LHR is wring. TAM got the rights to fly to LHR while RG was still operating and the start of these flights never had to do with RG disgrace.
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):

So you confirm that TAM GIG-CDG needs the GRU leg to boost the loads and yields of the flight? It means that now GIG-CDG could not stand alone, correct? So why AF keeps such strong results in its GIG-CDG? No doubt, GRU still has much higher yieldings and could even cope with a 3rd GRU-CDG if needed...

Hardi, I "don´t confirm"...it is my opinion. Don´t forget that AF offer to its customers much more destinations worldwide than the code-share agreements with TAM which are limited to certain destinations and not the hole AF network.
 
hardiwv
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 36):
Why do you people think they've choosen MXP over other Southern European destinations such as MAD or LIS? TAM thinks it is better positioned to fight AZ rather than IB or TP.

Yields of MXP are far higher than MAD or LIS. MXP area is one of the richests parts of Europe. MXP yields are on par to LHR for example. That's why TAM selected MXP and not MAD or LIS ir any other place.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 38):
Hardi, i believe if the flight depart GRU at 20:00 will arrive MXP closer to 10:25. Departing 12:30 from MXP will be not so bad (i remember you that AZ plane departs GRU around 17:25). Tam probably will need another plane during 2 hours to run this flight (rotation probably with another route)

AZ GRU 1725 MXP 0725
JJ GRU 2125 MXP 1125

AZ MXP 2145 GRU 0640
JJ MXP 1305 GRU 2200

You have a good point here, Lipe.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 40):
Hardi, I "don?t confirm"...it is my opinion.

Ok, I just wanted to confirm your opinion. But I still personally think that the GRU tag is because of acft rotation rather than because GRU would boost the GIG-CDG nostop flight.

Rgs,

Hardi @ SVO
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24523
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RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:24 pm

Here is an article that basiclly talks about some growth plans (em português):

http://www.dci.com.br/usexibir_integ..._pagina&title=Primeira%20Pagina&s=

In short, Frankfurt is the cards, Miami-Rio is coming up next year, and Lisbon is out of the question, as has been discussed around here.
a.
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 38):
AZ with no doubt offer a better departure time at MXP.

Good point Felipe, but we should realize that AZ is pretty poor at utilizing these outstanding flight times; the Magnifica class is not exactly the best J product around. AZ's money-makers (the 772) spend an awful long time on the ground on out-stations, bringing the end of AZ closer as of we speak.
This is not only true for GRU but also EZE and most likely many more, maybe HB-IWC can look into this once  angel 
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Here is an article that basiclly talks about some growth plans (em português):

http://www.dci.com.br/usexibir_integ..._pagina&title=Primeira%20Pagina&s=

In short, Frankfurt is the cards, Miami-Rio is coming up next year, and Lisbon is out of the question, as has been discussed around here.

Hey Mark seems that you understand portuguese very well!

Mr. Bologna just repeat all said on the Q3 results conference, and it's clear that TAM is looking for the 3rd service to JFK and also a 2nd flight to LHR.
I will be not surprised if both from Rio too.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 43):
Good point Felipe, but we should realize that AZ is pretty poor at utilizing these outstanding flight times; the Magnifica class is not exactly the best J product around. AZ's money-makers (the 772) spend an awful long time on the ground on out-stations, bringing the end of AZ closer as of we speak.

Funny that nowadays we see a lot of services from MAD, LIS (all) and CDG using a single plane. Thanks for the info on the Magnifica Class (which seems not to be a competitor for Tam Business nor Premium Class) and also, Tam will probably take care of all other domestic markets in Brazil (including RIO, POA, BSB, CNF and CWB) now on AZ hands due to the lack of flights to MXP.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: TAM Receives Authorization To Fly To MXP

Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Here is an article that basiclly talks about some growth plans (em português):

http://www.dci.com.br/usexibir_integ..._pagina&title=Primeira%20Pagina&s=

In short, Frankfurt is the cards, Miami-Rio is coming up next year, and Lisbon is out of the question, as has been discussed around here.

Tks for the interesting text. It also mentions that TAM plans to open operations in LIM and CCS. As mentioned, MAD remains interesting, while FRA depends on a partner airline, ie. LH.

LHR will possibly receive double daily flights, in my view GRU-LHR. Yields of GRU-LHR are very high and it does not surprise me. I think MXP-GRU can also sustain double daily TAM flights. I also believe there are other destinations in which TAM may become interested such as AMS and ZRH. In the domestic market, as expected, TAM will also add frequencies and open new destination.

Rgs,