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USAF336TFS
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FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:59 pm

The industrial launch of the A350XWB program has been delayed due to funding concerns amongst EADS shareholders:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+shareholder+funding+concerns.html
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mauriceb
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:02 pm

Yawn... C'mon Airbus, when is something going to be on time?

Think that when they are going to delay it even more, the A330 line must stay open for a long time, simply because the 787 can't handle the request for the segment it serves....
 
bringiton
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:07 pm

I only think that it is a matter of time before they launch the aircraft. It will take further implementation and "marketing" of the power8 to convince some of the investors to send in the checks but once airbus is firmly on that road the money will come .
 
osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):
I only think that it is a matter of time before they launch the aircraft.

I disagree.. there will come a time when it's not worth it and better to move onto the 320 replacement. At this point I would like to re-iterate my call to re-engine the 330, tweak it some and move on... the ship has sailed and will soon be but a dot on the horizon.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
NAV20
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3):
Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):
I only think that it is a matter of time before they launch the aircraft.

I disagree..

I agree. Or maybe I disagree? Or maybe we can all three agree that it's 'a matter of time', but no-one (not even EADS) knows how MUCH bloody time?  Smile

This has gone beyond the realms of mere business. Not sure whether it's becoming some sort of Greek tragedy, or just a new form of modern situation-comedy.......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Lumberton
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:32 pm

Quote:
This is in part due to France’s reluctance to provide the project with repayable finance, which could further aggravate the ongoing US dispute over launch aid. France and Germany are also awaiting guarantees on Airbus’ turnaround plan, says the report.

I had thought that EADS said last year (Forgeard or Leahy?) they didn't need RLI, subsidies, aid, whatever, to launch this project? Obviously, it's on the table. I remember a past post by Zvezda where he opined that RLI removes .5% of the risk premium from the project. Even on a third of the project (E10 billion) that could be a considerable sum over 17 years (RLI payback period IIRC). But wouldn't it be a small price to pay for peace on this issue? I'm sure the U.S. side would be willing to meet somewhere near the middle. The last thing either party wants here is to have this case heard by the WTO. Also, there could be a spillover into other areas, like agriculture (gasp!). Other articles I've read said that EADS was considering "ad hoc" solutions for this project, such as lining up a consortium of investors from Russia, China, Dubai, and the U.S. This would neatly skirt the WTO controversy and provide sufficient capital to proceed with the project--which is an absolute must for EADS IMO.
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AirSpare
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:47 pm

What will be the position of airliners that have ordered the A350x?

The "firm" orders that A received are still firm? Or where they firm LOIs  Smile

What is A doing for companies like TAM that ordered it before the spec was changed, then canceled, then re-unluanched?

This is the strangest news yet, another Soviet Failed Five Year Plan, rewritten every 2 years.

I think they may delay to launch either the new A320, or it's replacement. B will probably make a move there next. How much longer can AA fly their Mad Dogs for? I don't think they want to replace them with a near end of design life 737s. (?)
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OU812
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:52 pm

This is further vindication that Airbus is still feeling the after shocks of Boeing's 787 program . EADS Co-Chief Executive Louis Gallois was quoted as saying that Airbus/eads would not go forward with the XWB-A350 unless they felt they had a competitive a/c to produce . It is obvious people within airbus do not have the confidence to go forward with A350 at this time .

Boeing's 787 program is obviously far more advanced than what it's counterpart can produce . Question is how far ahead is it ? That I can't answer . However , while Airbus is stuck at the starting line fiddling with their running shoes . Boeing is absolutely running away in this market .

Where was this conservative thinking when the A380 program was being considered ?

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...13&WTModLoc=BusArt-C1-ArticlePage2

EADS board split over new plane funding - source

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:14 AM GMT

Disagreement over the funding of a $10 billion (5.2 billion pounds) new plane project at planemaker Airbus forced parent firm EADS (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) to cancel a Friday board meeting which had been expected to address the matter, an industry source said on Friday.
 
jacobin777
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
I had thought that EADS said last year (Forgeard or Leahy?) they didn't need RLI,

That was last year friend..given their recent financial debacle, I think it probably feels a lifetime go for EADS..... spin 
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scbriml
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 7):
It is obvious people within airbus do not have the confidence to go forward with A350 at this time .

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion from the quoted article. The delay is by EADS not Airbus. Airbus has presented their case and are waiting for EADS go-ahead.

Mr Leahy seems to be very keen to get out there and start selling the plane.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
I had thought that EADS said last year (Forgeard or Leahy?) they didn't need RLI, subsidies, aid, whatever, to launch this project?

They did say the A350 could be funded internally. But that was last year.

As per the article, on the cause of the delay...

Quote:
This is in part due to France’s reluctance to provide the project with repayable finance
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leelaw
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:24 pm

The last phantom "industrial launch" of the A350 (October 2005) was preceded by similar eleventh-hour haggling over whatnot, why should this iteration of industrial launch be any different? Perhaps they'll be better organized for future industrial launches of the A350?  Smile
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osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:03 am

Well I think this just goes to prove something I've been saying for a while now: the real problem for Airbus with regards to the 380 delays is the damage it's doing to confidence; both customer and investor.

I have no doubt the reason the project is again delayed is due to lack of funding and not technical in nature.

Airbus has dug themselves a very large hole (approximately the size of a 380... That's a big damned hole) financially.

Also, if there is any truth to the fact that the French government is hesitant to provide launch loans, I think that speaks volumes about their confidence in the long-term viability of EADS.

A few days ago I comment on death warrants and was scoffed at. I wonder what some of those people think now?

Airbus needs to re-engine and re-launch a modified 330. Spend about $2b on it. Take what market share they can get (I would guess 30% due to it being cheaper and more readily available than the 787 for the forseeable future).

They need to generate positive cash flow, or their 320 replacement will suffer and be out well after the 737 replacement (right now I'm figuring Airbus will EIS their 320 replacement 7 to 10 years after Boeing).

By the time Airbus is able to bring a 320 replacement to market, Boeing will have moved the bar (I believe Boeing will offer Y1 as two families, 5 and 6 abreast). Furthermore Boeing will likely be well on their way to Y3.

The worst part in all of this for Airbus is that if the 380 shows ANY strength, Boeing now has time to build a competitor, a CFRP one, that will destroy the 380. Don't think there isn't such a contingency plan at Boeing HQ.

(Please forgive any typos, etc. I am posting this from my mobile device)

[Edited 2006-11-24 16:08:53]
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Poitin
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
This has gone beyond the realms of mere business. Not sure whether it's becoming some sort of Greek tragedy, or just a new form of modern situation-comedy.......

Or perhaps Hamlet or King Lear? I can see Leahy dressed in tights, carrying a model of the A380, walking on stage and saying "Alas, poor 380, I knew thee well." And later, of course, the famous "To be or not to be, 350, that is the question?"

We could probably make a good Broadway stage production as well, starring that globe-trotting song and dance man Joohnn Leaheee!

Yes, indeed, my friend, NAV20, it has gone well beyond mere business, it has become Shakespearean tragedy.

Perhaps some others might find appropriate Shakespearean quotes?

Richard III would be a good place to look, as would MacBeth.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
briguy1974
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:01 am

No official word from Boeing but does the delays in the A350 xwb????? Make Boeing think more about a second line or is it simply a supplier issue? Anyone have any cold hard facts on this? Is there any facts???
 
osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Briguy1974 (Reply 13):
No official word from Boeing but does the delays in the A350 xwb????? Make Boeing think more about a second line or is it simply a supplier issue? Anyone have any cold hard facts on this? Is there any facts???

Astuteman broke down the expected production requirement for the next 20 years for NB and WB aircraft the other day based on Boeing/Airbus predictions. Boeing has no need (based on their own numbers) to open a second line for the 787. Any gain would likely be very short-term in nature and may or maynot offset the costs of doing so.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them ramp production ASAP though.
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Stitch
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:10 am

First off, I admit to being surprised it was the French who don't want RLA, considering how many on this board have been firm in the convictions that the French have been strong-arming the German government to invest directly into RLA to get the A350XWB off the ground...

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
I remember a past post by Zvezda where he opined that RLI removes .5% of the risk premium from the project. Even on a third of the project (E10 billion) that could be a considerable sum over 17 years (RLI payback period IIRC). But wouldn't it be a small price to pay for peace on this issue? I'm sure the U.S. side would be willing to meet somewhere near the middle.

I tend to think not. The US position appears to be that in a truly "level" playing field, Boeing probably has a better position (especially now) to prosper then Airbus does. That is not to imply in any way that Airbus cannot or will not prosper, but chances are Boeing's risk-sharing and stronger financial position (in terms of order book value and production costs) would allow it to obtain financing on the open market at more favorable rates then Airbus and their lower production costs would improve their revenues/margins which would help them keep the pressure on Airbus with future programs.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 7):
This is further vindication that Airbus is still feeling the after shocks of Boeing's 787 program . EADS Co-Chief Executive Louis Gallois was quoted as saying that Airbus/eads would not go forward with the XWB-A350 unless they felt they had a competitive a/c to produce . It is obvious people within airbus do not have the confidence to go forward with A350 at this time .

Boeing's 787 program is obviously far more advanced than what it's counterpart can produce . Question is how far ahead is it ? That I can't answer . However , while Airbus is stuck at the starting line fiddling with their running shoes . Boeing is absolutely running away in this market .

Your opinion is a sizeable leap from the article's assertion, which is that the lack of confidence has to do with *funding*, not the competitiveness of or the ability to produce the airplane.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
flysherwood
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 16):
Your opinion is a sizeable leap from the article's assertion, which is that the lack of confidence has to do with *funding*, not the competitiveness of or the ability to produce the airplane.

If investors do not feel Airbus' product will be competitive or that they cannot produce it on time, why would they risk billions of Euro's? It is all part of the same pie!!!
 
OU812
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 16):
Your opinion is a sizeable leap from the article's assertion, which is that the lack of confidence has to do with *funding*, not the competitiveness of or the ability to produce the airplane.

My thesis stems from the comment made by Gallois . This postponement gives me reason to speculate that Airbus/EADS/shareholders do not have the confidence nor revenue [while completing the A380] to commence with the Launch of a competitive A350 .

Also worth mentioning was the comments made by the Late Noel Forgeard some 12 months ago . Airbus is still not ready to react !


http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/061114/323/gris0.html

EADS to decide on official Airbus A350 launch by end November - Gallois

France, Gallois said the A350 project launch will depend on the success of the Power8 restructuring plan for Airbus.
'We cannot launch a programme if we are not certain of being competitive,' Gallois said.



http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ats+200-order+target+for+A350.html

Flight HomeSubscribeYou are in: Home › News Article
DATE:09/01/06
SOURCE:Flight International
Forgeard: Airbus beats 200-order target for A350

He said too that the price of fuel would be the main factor in determining how fast industry moves to developing an aircraft overwhelmingly built using composites. "If fuel is very expensive, you need an ultra-light aircraft, even if the cost of manufacture is higher," he said.

Airbus will spend €450 million ($540 million) in 2007-08 in developing composite technology. "Low cost industrial composites are the big challenge," he said.
"But we will be ready to react."
 
Shenzhen
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 18):
My thesis stems from the comment made by Gallois . This postponement gives me reason to speculate that Airbus/EADS/shareholders do not have the confidence nor revenue [while completing the A380] to commence with the Launch of a competitive A350 .

Also worth mentioning was the comments made by the Late Noel Forgeard some 12 months ago . Airbus is still not ready to react !

US WTO case against the EU over airplanes should come to a conclusion next year. In addition to your comments, maybe EADS doesn't want the A350 funding on top of the A380, BAE and repayment of the A380 Government launch assistance (when the EU lose the case).

Cheers
 
leelaw
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Perhaps some others might find appropriate Shakespearean quotes?

Ay me! for aught that ever I could read, could ever hear by tale or history, the course of [insert either "launch aid" or "industrial launch"] never did run smooth.  yes 
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
sparkingwave
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Perhaps some others might find appropriate Shakespearean quotes?

For future airline customers... to B or not to B, that is the question...!

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
kyair
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Richard III would be a good place to look, as would MacBeth

Out damned 787, OUT!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
 
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scbriml
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 19):
(when the EU lose the case)

I'm sure you meant to say if the EU loses the case. wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
aa1818
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
Airbus needs to re-engine and re-launch a modified 330. Spend about $2b on it. Take what market share they can get (I would guess 30% due to it being cheaper and more readily available than the 787 for the forseeable future).

At this point- I think you're right.

Orders are barely even trickling in for the A350, and while the rate of orders has slowed for Boeing's 787 as well, there is a gigantic backlog. The best thing Airbus can do right not IMHO is to get a revamped A330 that will come close, but probably couldn't match the 787's economics, and get it to the market by 2010 or before. Then they can go clean sheet on an A350 and A360 design, launching two platforms to deal with the 787 and 777.

This is just my opinion which agrees with Osiris30, so don't flame me too much!!!

AA1818
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Poitin
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 21):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Perhaps some others might find appropriate Shakespearean quotes?

For future airline customers... to B or not to B, that is the question...!

SparkingWave ~~~



Quoting KYAir (Reply 22):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Richard III would be a good place to look, as would MacBeth

Out damned 787, OUT!

To which we must add:

    "Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
    For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
    And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry."

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more."

    "The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."

    "an ill-favoured thing, sir, but mine own."

    "Now is the winter of our discontent."

    and last, but not least: "Off with his head!"
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
beechnut
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:35 am

This is becoming like the C series fiasco for Bombardier. BBD was asleep at the switch and ended up leaving a huge market segment to Embraer. Airbus appears to be doing the same to Boeing.

Seems like EADS had too many of its eggs in a very large basket.

Eventually though, they'll pull through this and remain a worthy competitor.

Beech
 
boeingfever777
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 1):
Yawn... C'mon Airbus, when is something going to be on time?

G! And who didn't expect this?

Wonder what QR, US, AY, TP, SQ, GECAS, and ILFC are going to do now?  Confused

And for that matter... LH!  stirthepot 
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coa747
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:48 am

Is this plane ever going to be launched? To me it seems EADS is not convinced of the business case for the A350. If the board felt that the A350XWB was a make or break decision they would green light it regardless of the cost. The longer EADS delays the launch the harder it becomes for Airbus to catch up. At this point I think some of the board members are of the mindset that the battle for the A330/767 market has been all but lost. Too much time and too many orders for Boeing. A re-engined A330 is the smart way out but is likely to cost them a lot of orders. It is a sad day when 30% of the market is considered a victory. It is that kind of thinking that got Airbus in trouble in the first place.
 
bringiton
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
Is this plane ever going to be launched?

Yes!!

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
To me it seems EADS is not convinced of the business case for the A350.

I dont think you can make this conclusion given the information. If the XWB is indeed a CFRP fues then It should capture a very healthy share of the 787/777 market !!

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
If the board felt that the A350XWB was a make or break decision they would green light it regardless of the cost.

The cost is the major issue here . If airbus completes its restructuring plan, presents it in toto to potential investors (govts.,private parties,banks etc etc) and is fully committed to a operational plan to get out of the financial crisis then it could raise money in a much more favourable manner as opposed to rushing into a 10-12 billion dollar program while having the creditors unstatisfied over the future of the Power8,A380 etc etc . I think that it wont take much convincing to get some of the govts. on board and Gallois and others will just wait until everything regarding the Power8 (like job cuts,work share etc etc) are clear before officially starting this project. Now That might take 2 weeks or 2 months but i dont think it will take any longer then that and shouldnt have a significant effect on EIS date unless they make sweeping new changes.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
The longer EADS delays the launch the harder it becomes for Airbus to catch up.

Having given boeing a 400 order head start (nearly) I dont think airbus is really worried about another 100 or so orders speacially when the 787 market alone (acc. to both airbus and boeing) needs around 3000 aircraft.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
this point I think some of the board members are of the mindset that the battle for the A330/767 market has been all but lost.

How could this be ? even a 30% market share (which ammounts to nearly 600 orders) of the 767/330 market would mean a pretty healthy ROI , Add to that a potential 50% on the 787-9,10/T7 market and the XWB has huge prospect.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 28):
It is a sad day when 30% of the market is considered a victory.

At the end of the day Airbus isnt there to declare VICTORY over Boeing (nor is boeing) , what the company is more interested in is bringing in profit and if getting a 30% stake in the market means that they'll still make profit then why not do it ? Speacially when your product is more tuned to compete in the T7 market !! A 40% stake in the combined market means that they'd sell 2000+ aircraft or nearabouts which is no small change.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 23):
Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 19):
(when the EU lose the case)

I'm sure you meant to say if the EU loses the case.

I don't think there is any doubt that the EU will lose the case filed against them by the US, but this isn't saying that the US will win the EU couter claim.

Cheers
 
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par13del
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:30 am

Airbus, in true revolutionary fashion, is taking orders away from Boeing B787 - which they readily admit to have under-estimated - by placing the A350 in the market.

Now unlike Boeing who did the same thing with the A380, Airbus has so far spent a fraction of what Boeing has on the B748i to take away over 100 orders for the B787

Pretty neat  Smile
 
art
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 29):
At the end of the day Airbus isnt there to declare VICTORY over Boeing (nor is boeing) , what the company is more interested in is bringing in profit and if getting a 30% stake in the market means that they'll still make profit then why not do it ?

Indeed. Neither Airbus nor Boeing make planes because it's their hobby.

For that reason I also back a re-engined A330 with minimal (say <$1 billion) development costs ASAP.
 
elvis777
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:40 am

Howdy Par13del,

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Airbus, in true revolutionary fashion, is taking orders away from Boeing B787



Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Now unlike Boeing who did the same thing with the A380

.

The above two statements, from your post, contradict each other.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
which they readily admit to have under-estimated

Depends on who you ask. Lots of quotes , maybe a bit old, saying otherwise. Also, According to Keesje last thread things are going really well at eads which then contradicts your argument in that if they are going very well then they cannot have underestimated the competition.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Airbus has so far spent a fraction of what Boeing has on the B748i

I dont know how much money has gone into the 350 and ALL of its iterations. What would you venture to say they have spent so far and not just in monetary terms but in intellectual energy?

Now how about the 748i? It is a derivative so ballpark the amount to be 2-3billion US dollars (Can someone set me straight on these two points please).

So it looks like it is pretty neat! Albeit for B instead of A.

Peace

Elvis777
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andessmf
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 26):
BBD was asleep at the switch and ended up leaving a huge market segment to Embraer

This is an interesting comparison. What would give airlines an incentive to wait 6 years for a competitor? The A350XWB could easily be a great airplane, but the wait may force airlines who want the equivalent airplane now to purchase the competitor.

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 29):
If the XWB is indeed a CFRP fues then It should capture a very healthy share of the 787/777 market !!

It could capture a healthy segment of the market if it was coming to market soon. But right now, airlines have no idea WHEN the airplane is coming. Lacking this critical schedule, how can they plan for the airplane?
 
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par13del
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:19 am

Elvis777 the revolutionary way is how they are taking orders away from Boeing. How many iterations has Boeing come up with for the B748, fas as I know only 2 - length - and so far no dent in the A380 market.

Airbus with the A350 has so many versions, from a B787 size competitor to a B777 size competitor, and it worked, so far.

As for how much it is costing Boeing, unlike Airbus, they actually have to push and develop the product for airlines to take them seriously.
 
osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 35):
As for how much it is costing Boeing, unlike Airbus, they actually have to push and develop the product for airlines to take them seriously.

I can't figure out if you're being cheeky or smoking crack. You really don't believe Airbus is doing what they are doing intentionally do you? And how do you know Boeing hasn't impacted 380 sales. Haven't really been a lot selling lately. For all you know the 748 has pushed customers onto the fence.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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par13del
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:45 am

Well Osiris30 when I first thought of it I was being "cheeky" but some of the earlier responses have reminded me of some things that have gone on before
like:

1. Airbus earlier this year or last stated that they DID NOT NEED launch
aid for the A350

2. Airbus and its supporters stated that even if they did not need it, if it
was avalaible, they would be insane not to use it

3. Now after all these different versions, they are delaying the launch
because launch aid is being questioned by EADS?

4. Other's have denied the possibility that Airbus is suffering from the
woes of the A380

In my mind without any evidence / source to the contrary, Airbus is taking advantage of its current situation with customers of the A350, look at the amount of noise in the market place after FedEx cancelled on the A380 freighter. Try to imagine what Airbus impetus would be, if a few of the existing A350 customers cancelled and announced orders for the B787, you really believe they would be delaying the industrial launch, I don't think so.

The same could be said of customers who have waited for the A380, there may not be a like a/c as a competitor, but in business, there is more than one way to service your customers, right?
 
AvObserver
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
Airbus needs to re-engine and re-launch a modified 330. Spend about $2b on it. Take what market share they can get

They were going to do this with the original A350 but several influential customers spoke out loudly against it. That could have been part of a 2 prong strategy with an all-new aircraft bowing later to succeed the modified one but so much time has gone by, that approach might no longer be viable. Honestly, Boeing really did catch Airbus with its proverbial pants down while it was obsessed with creating a superjumbo.


Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Airbus has so far spent a fraction of what Boeing has on the B748i to take away over 100 orders for the B787

Only problem is, without a fully defined A350, Airbus can't guarantee these orders won't be cancelled; there remains a danger as long as the program status remains in flux. The financial obstacles, thanks in part to A380 cost overruns, are understandable but without a competive mid-size jetliner, Airbus will lose a lot of ground to Boeing. EADS must somehow shore up a financing plan so Airbus can move forward at this critical time.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Now unlike Boeing who did the same thing with the A380, Airbus has so far spent a fraction of what Boeing has on the B748i to take away over 100 orders for the B787

Boeing hasn't fully disclosed what the 747-8 development will ultimately cost but many here were bandying around a $4 billion USD figure, which would have made the original A350 effort, at over $5 billion USD, more costly. Hardly surprising, since the A330 design would have been far more heavily reworked than what Boeing intends to do with the 748. The 748 effort involves mostly adapting 787 engines to a highly modified wing and other aerodynamic refinements but aside from the stretch, most of the 747's basic structure would remain unchanged.
 
trex8
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:59 am

seems the French refusal to provide RLI is because they want a bigger stake in EADS as a price
http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...EADS-UPDATE-4.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna
 
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par13del
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:04 am

Trex8 that is the other shoe falling, the French have always stated publicy that they would support Airbus / EADS in the launch of the A350, so if as in the first article, the French are the ones raising questions, one would have to ask why.

You can also add in the existing talks about re-structuring Airbus production facilities between the various countries, be interesting to see what type of compromise comes out of this in terms of shifting production facilities from France. Where is that pot stirring icon.
 
osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 39):
seems the French refusal to provide RLI is because they want a bigger stake in EADS as a price
http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...=qcna

I predict this gets much uglier before it gets any better....
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
trex8
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:16 am

well if BAes portion can be divided up between the French, Germans and Spanish everyone should be happy!
 
osiris30
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 42):
well if BAes portion can be divided up between the French, Germans and Spanish everyone should be happy!

Ummm.. how is that fair to the private share holders.. it dilutes their equity and is potentially illegal. Not only that.. who says the French want to share (I'm guessing you were being sarcastic, but my points stand anyway).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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ER757
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 12):
Perhaps some others might find appropriate Shakespearean quotes?

"A350 - wherefore art thou A350?"

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
Now unlike Boeing who did the same thing with the A380, Airbus has so far spent a fraction of what Boeing has on the B748i to take away over 100 orders for the B787

Well, the way the freighter version on the 748 is selling Boeing's money will have been well spent even if they NEVER sell a copy of the 748i.

Back to the original topic - one has to begin to wonder when the fence-sitters such as LH are going to tire of the endless delays in launch and just order up some 787's.
 
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Stitch
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 39):
Seems the French refusal to provide RLI is because they want a bigger stake in EADS as a price...

Could it be a blocking move by the French state to keep the Russians at bay?

Or does France desire a larger stake - and perhaps an extra seat on the board - so they can better control how work is distributed - and where cuts are made?
 
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glideslope
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
Could it be a blocking move by the French state to keep the Russians at bay?

You are a wise person. People in here have been blowing off my Russia wants EADS comments for the last 6 months.

George Bush is no longer the largest concern for the EU.

Wake up.

[Edited 2006-11-25 02:16:22]
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
NAV20
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 37):
In my mind without any evidence / source to the contrary, Airbus is taking advantage of its current situation with customers of the A350, look at the amount of noise in the market place after FedEx cancelled on the A380 freighter. Try to imagine what Airbus impetus would be, if a few of the existing A350 customers cancelled and announced orders for the B787, you really believe they would be delaying the industrial launch, I don't think so.

Par13del, I reckon that certainly takes this week's 'unbridled optimism' prize.

Can't get rid of a picture in my head of a reporter ringing Airbus about this story:-

"Reporter – “I’m ringing to enquire about rumours of a further delay to the A350. Has the company made a statement?”

"Airbus PR – “Yes, there was a statement – hold on, looking for it. Here it is – ‘The report is speculation. No final decision has been made yet. We have no further comment at this stage.'”

"Reporter – “Can you give me any ‘background’? My News Editor told me to ask whether the delay had anything to do with developing the CFRP panels you’re planning to use?”

"Airbus PR – “Wait a minute – that’s the A350XWB you’re talking about, not the A350?”

"Reporter – “Oh, sorry, yes, rumours of delays to the A350XWB. Have you got a statement on that?”

"Airbus PR – “Sure, just issued an hour ago. ‘The report is speculation. No final decision has been made yet. We have no further comment at this stage.' Want me to email you a copy?"

"Reporter – “We’ve got our lines crossed somehow– that’s the statement you just read me.”

"Airbus PR – “No it’s not – it’s the latest statement on rumoured delays to the A350XWB, datelined today. The first one I quoted was about rumoured delays to the A350; that’s old news, it was issued about three months ago….”
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
OU812
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 47):
Can't get rid of a picture in my head of a reporter ringing Airbus about this story:-

The reporter should not forget to ask if the launch will be firm or a commitment ? Because all A350 launches to date have been commitments !  sarcastic 

 eyebrow 
 
fridgmus
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RE: FI:Launch Of A350XWB Program Delayed.

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:47 pm

I'm a little new here. I don't work in the Aviation Industry, I'm just an ex-Para who loves airplanes.

Can anyone please explain the difference between the "old" A350 and the A350XWB?

Thank you,

Marc
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!