bastew
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:00 am

Well it seems common sense has prevailed.

Willie Walsh has backed down and a new Uniform Policy is to be introduced.

From the BA intranet:

Uniform policy to be reviewed

British Airways has announced that it is to start a review of its uniform policy with immediate effect.

In a message to staff, chief executive Willie Walsh said: “The recent debate about our uniform policy has unfairly accused British Airways of being anti-Christian.

“We’re proud of our uniform and proud of the diversity of our people. One of the fundamental aims of our uniform policy is to be fair and non-discriminatory. Our current policy has served us well and has been supported by our staff.

“Though our policy is consistent with that of many other airlines, it has become clear that the policy will need to change in the light of the public debate.

“I do not believe that policy should be dictated by the desires of one individual. However, we have to recognise the damage to our business that the current situation could inflict if it is not resolved. Therefore I am initiating a review of the policy to begin immediately.”

The airline said the review will examine ways in which its uniform policy will be adapted to allow symbols of faith to be worn openly, while remaining consistent with the British Airways brand and compliant with employment legislation.

Willie Walsh added: “For example, our staff have suggested that we allow the wearing of religious symbols as small lapel badges. This will be considered as part of the review.

“In the meantime, staff will be expected to adhere to the existing uniform policy until the review is completed and a date is set for changes to be implemented.

“The criticism of British Airways has been misplaced and unjustified. I am proud to lead an airline that has a track record on diversity and inclusion which is second to none.”
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:55 am

What annoyed me most about this whole deal is the hypocritical MP's that are 'boycotting' BA due to this. Boycotting BA that is, until they're offered a government-sponsored jolly to somewhere overseas for 'bilateral talks' that just happen to incorporate the exclusive use of a chartered BA 777!

I'd put money on their boycot being rapidly forgotten about in that instance.....
 
bastew
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:04 am

The pain for me, is that nearly every other airline in the country has exactly the same guide lines as BA. Do you not think it ODD Virgins silence on the issue in the press for example (which is rare when BA are being criticized)?? Because their crew have the same rules to follow!

It is really unfair that as soon as it is something that involves BA it sells newspapers. Why don't the reporters go into BMI or Virgin crew report centres and ask them about their uniform standards?
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 2):
The pain for me, is that nearly every other airline in the country has exactly the same guide lines as BA. Do you not think it ODD Virgins silence on the issue in the press for example (which is rare when BA are being criticized)?? Because their crew have the same rules to follow!

Exactly. Almost every airline has these rules, not just BA. I wear a small cross, but it goes under my uniform. Seriously, what is wrong with that? More importantly, what's up with this Nadia woman??!
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 2):

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

The incident was blown completely out of proportion by the media and the employee. All airlines, not just BA, have rules regarding dress and appearance of their employees, who should accept them or find another job if you ask me.

As to the MPs who boycotted BA. Good riddance I say. They mainly fly with the taxpayers footing the bill, and with their MP status they usually expect to be upgraded and treated like royalty. You would also think MPs have more pressing things to be concerned with, rather than a BA employee at odds with her employer. The MPs should be addressing issues like immigration that has spiralled out of control, the Iraqi situation, increasing crime, etc. Of course, if they speak up on the BA cross situation, they distract attention from what they are elected and paid to do.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
GBOAC
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:48 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:46 am

That is a lovely bit of spin there from WW/Corporate Comms/Whoever. Very nice. Here's to hoping BA does this to limit the PR damage the stupid woman has caused, gets praised for being inclusive and listening to its staff and the public by holding the 'consultation'...and that the consultation concludes overwhelmingly that there's absolutely no need to change the rules and this was a lot of noise - most of which totally misses the point - over nothing and a nobody...
 
speedmarque
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:37 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:12 am

Pinning various badges to our uniform?.................................how very TGI Fridays!

Altogether now.... I,m a feiry red head with the moon in uranus....CAREFUL I'LL DO THE JOKES! a one potato-two potato-three potato-four...........
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 2):
Do you not think it ODD Virgins silence on the issue in the press for example (which is rare when BA are being criticized)?? Because their crew have the same rules to follow!

Richard Branson appeared on the BBC's 'This Week' programme on BBC One last night in which he said Virgin Atlantic does allow its staff to display religious symbols whilst at work.
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 6):
Pinning various badges to our uniform?.................................how very TGI Fridays!

I totally agree with you here. Let's hope that the company realises that the vast majority of staff have no problem with the current uniform rules and wear the uniform proudly. We all agreed to accept the conditions outlined in the uniform book and it clearly states no jewelry.

Unfotunately this individual has been allowed to do as she pleases for too long. Many of us would have been fired for much of what she has been allowed to do during her time with the airline and now, not only does she break the uniform rules, but then goes to the media, which is again is against company policy. I wonder if I went public in the media supporting the current uniform policy and the company's position, just how long I'd survive in my job.

Once again, those in the wrong are always right. Pity that the politicans and others demanding that BA respects her 'right' don't feel the same when it comes to protecting us from crime, poor transportion services, poor health services and many other issues that need to be addressed.
 
helvknight
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:35 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 8):
Unfotunately this individual has been allowed to do as she pleases for too long. Many of us would have been fired for much of what she has been allowed to do during her time with the airline and now, not only does she break the uniform rules, but then goes to the media, which is again is against company policy. I wonder if I went public in the media supporting the current uniform policy and the company's position, just how long I'd survive in my job.

 checkmark 
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
Airbus340
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 3:05 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:46 am

In British Airways the Indian people are ALLOWED to wear their TURBANS, the Muslems are allowed to wear their covers...I find that very good and respectful. But oh no! A Christian that shows a Cross, THAT IS PROHIBITED. OOOOOH, I see how respectful are these BA high executives are. I wouldn't put one myself but this shows the (pityful) standards of BA. They should be ashamed of themselves! I've flown to Heathrow and Gatwick myself and I know what I am talking about. Many of you have seen it for yourselves. Or haven't you?
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting Airbus340 (Reply 10):
In British Airways the Indian people are ALLOWED to wear their TURBANS, the Muslems are allowed to wear their covers...I find that very good and respectful. But oh no! A Christian that shows a Cross, THAT IS PROHIBITED. OOOOOH, I see how respectful are these BA high executives are. I wouldn't put one myself but this shows the (pityful) standards of BA. They should be ashamed of themselves! I've flown to Heathrow and Gatwick myself and I know what I am talking about. Many of you have seen it for yourselves. Or haven't you?

You simply have no idea what you are talking about and have bought into the media hype. BA has a restriction on jewelry, which is what this individual wore. The fact that it was a cross is irrelevant. The uniform rules have been in place for many years and have been followed by all of us, including this individual until she opted to make an issue, which we can only guess was for political reasons.

There are many christians within BA and I work with them all the time. I consider myself to be christian, but I don't make an issue of it. I accepted the terms and conditions of the job and as such know that there are restrictions on jewelry, be it a cross or otherwise. I also know that I can be rostered to work on christian holidays and I accepted this, along with anyone working in many sections of the airline industry. I'm just waiting for this particular individual to make this the next issue. She already has a history in this regard.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:29 pm

Someone please tell me where in the bible (i live with avid church goers and they agree here) where it says the cross NEEDS to or HAS to be worn to show her love for god.

IT DOES NOT. She has jumped on the media bandwagon of the veil thing to get her own way. She agreed to a contract, it even showed her last night reading the damm uniform code book on BBC news, just after they said she was suspended SHES NOT SUSPENDED
Where does the time go???
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:05 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Airbus340 (Reply 10):
In British Airways the Indian people are ALLOWED to wear their TURBANS, the Muslems are allowed to wear their covers...I find that very good and respectful. But oh no! A Christian that shows a Cross, THAT IS PROHIBITED. OOOOOH, I see how respectful are these BA high executives are. I wouldn't put one myself but this shows the (pityful) standards of BA. They should be ashamed of themselves! I've flown to Heathrow and Gatwick myself and I know what I am talking about. Many of you have seen it for yourselves. Or haven't you?

No buddy, your a dumb ass and obviously have no idea what your talking about. The "Indian" people you talk of are Sikh, so you know for future reference, that's a religion. Those of the Islamic faith are allowed to wear hijab's, not covers as you disrespectfully refer to them.

Look, I've kept quiet till now, but this is stupid. There are people getting involved in this, who have nothing to do with British Airways, nor the airline industry. At the end of the day, this argument has NOTHING to do with religion! British Airways have one of the most diverse numbers of employees of any business in the world, from all faiths and religions and is damn proud of that.

The lady in question breached a contract which she signed when joining BA, and thus promised to adhere to it while in employment at British Airways, just as all British Airways employees have done. She has now broken the contract, and that’s it, she is in breach of contract. What exactly is so hard to understand here? British Airways allows Sikh's to wear turbans, and Muslims to wear Hijabs because it is impractical for them to hide these, during everyday work.
Sikh's also wear what is know as a "Kara", which is a gold or silver bangle worn on their right arm, it is stated in the British Airways uniform standard, that if they wish to wear this, a long sleeved shirt must be worn to cover it and guess what, it's adhered to! Why? BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE CONTRACT WE HAVE ALL SIGNED.

If the person in question was Hindu, Jew, Muslim or Sikh and was in breach of the contract, we would have the same outcome!

People need to take a step back, take their head out of their arses, and see what the exact issue here is, not the fact she's Christian, but the fact she is in breach of contract!

I am sure all other British Airways employees on this site, will agree with what I have just said!

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
bastew
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 13):
Sikh's also wear what is know as a "Kara", which is a gold or silver bangle worn on their right arm, it is stated in the British Airways uniform standard, that if they wish to wear this, a long sleeved shirt must be worn to cover it and guess what, it's adhered to! Why? BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE CONTRACT WE HAVE ALL SIGNED.

Hey Brit, this rule was actually changed. Not sure for the ground staff, but cabin crew wearing the kara are now able to wear a short sleeve shirt.

The difference however, is how they went about instigating the change. A number of the sikh guys got together, and penned a joint letter to the management asking them to review the policy. They outlined the impractability of wearing a long sleeve shirt on board a hot aircraft in the middle of summer etc etc.

They continued wearing the uniform to standard (ie a long sleeve shirt) until management had completed their review which was in their favour.

Perhaps this Nadia lady should have tried a similar trail of thought......
 
GDC2006
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:24 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:33 pm

Is the BA Intranet designed for copying and pasting onto a public website? Just a thought..........


Anyway with regard to the bint and her cross, she's a dickhead, the pratts who decided to boycott BA (don't Christians waffle on about forgiveness?) are just morons and the media has shown itself to be as unitelligent as most intelligent persons thought it was.

Right so now some dick who works in LHR has had her unreasonable and unarguable demands met and invoked a change in policy within BA can we get back to business?? Those of us who aren't looking for 15 minutes of fame are attemtping to ensure we continue flying people around the world and support our airline every way we can.

Thank you

GC  Yeah sure
Trust a woman? How can you trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die?
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:05 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting BAStew (Reply 14):
this rule was actually changed.

Yup your right, for cabin crew it's slightly different in regards to the Kara. For ground staff, I believe it still is the requirement to wear long sleeved shirts.

The thing which had bugged me most about all of this is. 99% of BA employees work their hardest, so that BA is one of the best airlines in the world, we offer the best service we can, and to portray BA as a world airline, which it is. Now this women has managed to tarnish BA's reputation which will take months if not years to rectify.

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:40 pm

OH HAPPY DAYS!!!!

never mind xmas is only round the corner,peace and good will to ("all men")  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting GDC2006 (Reply 15):

Wow gordon.

And i thought i went into a rant to my mum the other nite lol
Where does the time go???
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 16):

 white   white   white   white   white 

is this a safe area to come back to?


dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 13):
I am sure all other British Airways employees on this site, will agree with what I have just said!

I agree, I agree!!

Also, no mention is made of the 'lady in question' pushing her religious beliefs onto our customers. Apparently, she's even handed-out bibles to customers and colleagues alike. (I work with two of her ex-colleagues). If I were a customer of BA rather than an employee, I'd be a little taken aback by an employee pushing her religious beliefs upon me, be it a bible or the koran or any other religious books or articles.

This did happen to me once in T4, a colleague insisting I visit 'her' church to 'declare my sins' and receive my 'redemption', but I basically told her that I was there to provide a service to our fare-paying customers and not be inducted into 'her' church or 'her' religion. I considered her actions to be innappropriate in the workplace.

Miss Eweida must also consider her actions again. She's brought BA into disrepute, and that's a situation that needs to be remedied. Any other company would have dealt with this in a different way, so she's really getting-off lightly, considering the circumstances.

Quote:
From injurywatch.co.uk:
Nadia Eweida, 55, has been refusing to return to work since bosses told her last month she could not wear the necklace to work. She lost her appeal against the decision when she met BA today although the airline said she had the right to a second appeal.

BA said Miss Eweida had until next week to decide if she wanted to take up the option of a second appeal. The airline said she had been offered a non-uniformed job where she could wear a cross, but she had turned this down. The firm continued to insist that if she wanted to carry on working in the check-in area of Heathrow Airport, she would not be allowed to wear a cross above her cravat. BA has said there is no ban on wearing religious jewellery, but it has to be hidden from view.

Miss Eweida, from Twickenham, south west London, claimed she had worn the cross throughout her seven years with BA and accused the firm of religious discrimination. She said she did not want to hide the cross because “Jesus has to be glorified”. She added: “I am not politically motivated or minded, I just follow the Biblical truth.”

Miss Eweida was flown to the United States by a TV company after her case became known last month, where she said she received “overwhelming support”.

So, how much is Miss Eweida financially gaining, in her quest to 'follow the biblical truth' ?  Yeah sure
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting GDC2006 (Reply 15):
Is the BA Intranet designed for copying and pasting onto a public website? Just a thought..........

I wouldn't worry about it in this instance, as the same text is available on the BBC News website!

Quote:
From news.bbc.co.uk:
Mr Walsh said: "The recent debate about our uniform policy has unfairly accused British Airways of being anti-Christian.

"British Airways is proud of its uniform and proud of the diversity of its staff.

"One of the fundamental aims of our uniform policy is to be fair and non-discriminatory.

"The criticism of British Airways has been misplaced and unjustified. I am proud to lead an airline that has a track record on diversity and inclusion which is second to none."

Pretty much the same as was quoted on the intranet. However, I agree that copy/pasting directly from the BA intranet or any other companys' intranet should generally not happen, as it surely must be in direct contravention of the intranet usage policy.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12392
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:21 pm

Sounds like this woman spent too much time in the USA around some of our fundalmentist Christians and their lawyers. If she was promoting her Christian faith on the job and to customers, that is wrong as to a range of employee and company rules for good reasons. It insults and offends many people to have religion shoved upon them in a business place. In some cases, wearing a cross may make them a target of extremist of other faiths, some non-Christians passengers/Customers will not treat such cross wearing staff fairly and questions if the staff member is being fair to those of other faiths but their own.
BA probably will make some balancing adjustments to keep everybody happy, including active Christians, recognising that Sikh men, Muslim women wear head coverings including on the job per the instructions of their faith. This also saves them from considerable legal costs for something that probably would lose anyway in a high court.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 22):
Sounds like this woman spent too much time in the USA around some of our fundalmentist Christians and their lawyers. If she was promoting her Christian faith on the job and to customers, that is wrong as to a range of employee and company rules for good reasons. It insults and offends many people to have religion shoved upon them in a business place. In some cases, wearing a cross may make them a target of extremist of other faiths, some non-Christians passengers/Customers will not treat such cross wearing staff fairly and questions if the staff member is being fair to those of other faiths but their own.

I wasn't aware that there was any active promotion going on. If that was the case she should be disciplined for that if that is against BA's rules. But as far as I have heard this case was about religious ornamentation.

And your argument doesn't fly given the policies of BA with regards to Muslim women wearing the hijab and Sikh men wearing turbans.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 22):
Sounds like this woman spent too much time in the USA around some of our fundalmentist Christians and their lawyers. If she was promoting her Christian faith on the job and to customers, that is wrong as to a range of employee and company rules for good reasons. It insults and offends many people to have religion shoved upon them in a business place. In some cases, wearing a cross may make them a target of extremist of other faiths, some non-Christians passengers/Customers will not treat such cross wearing staff fairly and questions if the staff member is being fair to those of other faiths but their own.

I wasn't aware that there was any active promotion going on. If that was the case she should be disciplined for that if that is against BA's rules. But as far as I have heard this case was about religious ornamentation.

And your argument doesn't fly given the policies of BA with regards to Muslim women wearing the hijab and Sikh men wearing turbans.

As I understand it...it is a tenet of the Muslim religion that females wear the hijab, and a tenet of the Sikh religion that men wear the turban. As such, BA and any company should accomodate that requirement. I'm sure that if these articles could be hidden by the uniform they would be, but they cannot.

I'm not aware of any tenet of any of the Christian faiths that requires a believer of that faith to wear a cross that is visible.

Ms Eweida is free to wear her cross. Just not in a visible fashion. She agreed to that as part of her hiring contract and either should abide by it or leave.

It's an embarassment that various people, including CoE bishops are seeing this as anti-Christian.

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
antonovman
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:45 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 13):
User currently onlineBritPilot777

Hey BritPilot777 thats the most intelligent post i have read on here
 
bastew
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:33 am

I think the media in the UK have jumped the gun a little by saying this woman will be able to wear her precious chain after-all.

There is no way Willie will back down totally. He (rightly so) couldn't give a toss about this woman and her silly complaint. But he needs to get the media on-side (which he seems to finally be achieving). I don't know how happy nadia will be with the opportunity to maybe wear a 'cross pin' on her lapel, but as long as the UK media finds it 'aceptable' thats all that really matters.
 
cirrusdriver
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 22):
It insults and offends many people to have religion shoved upon them in a business place. In some cases, wearing a cross may make them a target of extremist of other faiths, some non-Christians passengers/Customers will not treat such cross wearing staff fairly and questions if the staff member is being fair to those of other faiths but their own.

I am not here to be disrespectful, be insulting, offend anyone, nor "shove" my faith upon anyone. I ask this to anyone on this forum. What is religion? Do you religiously go to work everyday? Do you religiously park your car in the same area at work? If so, then doesn't this make you religious?

Do you use profanity? Do you religiously use the same profanity in the same situations? Do you use profanity at work? What is your employers policy about using profanity while you are on the clock? How about being outspoken? Are you outspoken about your views on religion? Are you outspoken about your opinion on the current administration in the White House (or who ever your elected official(s) are/is)? Do you "shove" your opinion or your beliefs onto other people?

If you openly express your opinions at a "place of business" then aren't you "shoving" your religion upon your co-workers and possibly your customers?

My point is that we all do it. We all offend others with our choice of religion. Why is it that you are only allowed to be offended if it involves God or references to God? Do you wish people Happy Holiday during Christmas time? Unfortunately, it is socially acceptable to bash Christians for "shoving" our religion upon others while the rest of society is allowed to express they're worldly views.

With that said, if it is BA's uniform policy that any jewelry shall be worn underneath the uniform then I feel that, as a good Christian, she should respect and obey this, well, commandment. It is my opinion that the Bible (NIV) does not command that a Christian display jewelry to proclaim one faith.

By the way, unless you read the Bible then you will never understand that your argument of "wearing a cross may make them a target of extremist of other faiths" has absolutely no merit to a Christian.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:31 am

The Church of England is now reviewing its investments in BA, along with consideration of a boycott of BA, reported today in Canada's national newspaper.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 20):
Also, no mention is made of the 'lady in question' pushing her religious beliefs onto our customers. Apparently, she's even handed-out bibles to customers and colleagues alike. (I work with two of her ex-colleagues). If I were a customer of BA rather than an employee, I'd be a little taken aback by an employee pushing her religious beliefs upon me, be it a bible or the koran or any other religious books or articles.

Yes, BA has somehow managed to keep the actions of this individual within the workplace quiet, which is perhaps unfortunate. She does have a reputation for pushing her religious beliefs on others within the work place and for leaving religious material in dropfiles. There have also been other actions that have gone unreported. The result is that she comes away with her reputation and profile increased and BA is deemed the bad guy.

This all totally ignores the fact that the vast majority of BA uniformed staff happily accept the uniform rules, in the interest of presenting the best possible face for the airline.

BritPilot777 there are many of us within the airline that feel just a strong as you do. This lady has now broken not just one rule, but two or even three depending on how it is considered. She has spoken to the media, which is also something that we are not to do, but of course she is unlikely to face any action over this.
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:37 am

Hasn´t BA bigger problems ...  Yeah sure
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
The Church of England is now reviewing its investments in BA

What investments would they be?
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 31):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
The Church of England is now reviewing its investments in BA

What investments would they be?

The article did not say.

The biggest threat would be a well-publicized boycott. With over 90% of Brits being Christian and the BA customer base being prodominantly Christian, BA could be seriously hurt with a revenue hit from a boycott.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 31):
What investments would they be?

The Church of England holds 6.6 million pounds of BA stock. They threatened to sell it over the cross incident.
 
cirrusdriver
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:48 am

Sorry folks, I realize that most of my earlier reply to the posting by LTBEWR is better located on another forum perhaps on another web-sight. I volunteer to have all of it deleted except the part about BA and its uniform policy.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 33):

The Church of England holds 6.6 million pounds of BA stock. They threatened to sell it over the cross incident.

It doesn't matter what religion it is..at the end of the day, money talks, I want to see the Church unload their shares...actually, given how BA has performed the past couple of years, I would be selling all my shares too.. Smile

"Up the Irons!"
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:05 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
Hasn´t BA bigger problems ...

Care to elaborate? You mean the pension defecit? Yes, it's a problem, but one that's being worked at, and this cross business is simply getting in the way of this serious matter!

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
bastew
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 32):
With over 90% of Brits being Christian and the BA customer base being prodominantly Christian, BA could be seriously hurt with a revenue hit from

Wonder what percentage of those 90% are practicing christians....or christians that are 'up in arms' about this issue.....or christians that would shun a non-stop flight from A - B in favour or flying A - B via C, all because the airline in question doesn't allow one of their staff to wear a chain with a cross?

Forget the charity work undertaken by christian organisations that BA sponsons around the globe. Forget the fact that even its OWN christian fellowship group doesn't support this lady's actions.

I think the 'boycott' would be even more embarassing for the C of E than the situation has been for BA.

[Edited 2006-11-25 20:01:10]
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 36):
You mean the pension defecit? Yes, it's a problem, but one that's being worked at, and this cross business is simply getting in the way of this serious matter!

Yes, let's get on with sorting the pension deficit instead. All this other malarkey is making me cross! (pun intended...)
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:23 am

I think this episode is more evidence of the PC Brigage (aka, the lunatics), taking over the asylum.

It's probably been mentioned already, but didn't this woman accept the Uniform Standards as part of her Contract of Employment when she started with the Company? When does a piece of jewellry move from nice accessory to symbol of personal morality, and who decides when this line is crossed?

IMO - she should have been sacked for persistant non-adherence to Company Policy and Procedures. I believe that since BA have 'caved in' to outside pressure for the sake of Share Price, this is the thin end of the wedge, and they are making a rod for their own back for future disputes to be placed in the public domain by staff.

BA have appeared bullish and focussed on the end-game for so long in all other areas of their business, and succeeded.. but this has put them back a couple of steps.
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 32):
With over 90% of Brits being Christian and the BA customer base being prodominantly Christian, BA could be seriously hurt with a revenue hit from a boycott.

Not true at all

I live with 2 guys that go to chuch every sunday, do chuch groups and meetings during the week and lots of other stuff.

They all agree with me. She is going WAY over the top. Does not need to show it to prove her love of god. Thats inside.
Where does the time go???
 
kellmark
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:02 am

Boy, I can't believe all of the vitriol on here against this woman at BA. Using profanity against her and calling her names. She lost her job over a principle that she believed in. That there should be no discrimination against any one religion, when accomodations are made for other religions. IMHO the problem was created when the company gave in to an accommodation for two other religions, the Muslim and the Sikh, which were allowed to wear hijabs and bracelets. If you do it for one then you have to do it for all. BA made the mistake by allowing any accommodation for the others in the first place. If they had not done that, then this problem would not have occurred. No one is forced to take the job no matter what religion they are. And they all know the policy, whether they be Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhist, or whatever.

It is just like some religions have their holy day on a Friday or Saturday. An employer should not have to change their practices because one religion demands that the days off be changed, etc. Or that they be allowed to pray in the workplace and be paid for that time.

It makes me think of the Muslim taxi drivers in Minneapolis who wanted to deny serving customers who had seeing eye dogs or anyone with alcohol with them as they said their religion prohibited it. Yet when they took the job, they understood that it was a public function. But they wanted a special accomodation. It was denied. That is the same thing that BA should have done here. Deny any accommodation for any religion.

And by the way, I have seen plenty of people in the workplace wearing a Christian cross, or Jewish stars, or whatever. I have never known anyone to take offence. But this prohibition of wearing a small Christian cross when the Sikhs and Muslims were allowed to do what they wanted clearly made Christians feel that this was an anti-Christian policy. And it doesn't make her an extremist, either.

Then the British flag, with St. George's Cross, etc, should also be banned.

Of course BA made that mistake as well, of taking the British flag off of their airplanes. One has to wonder what is going on there, when things like this are allowed to happen.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 41):
She lost her job over a principle that she believed in

Did u not read anything above
SHE IS NOT SACKED. She took unpaid leave and for some reason the company want her back at work. I saw the BBC say she had been fired 5 times yesterday. A 6th and the tv would of gone flying
Where does the time go???
 
kellmark
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:46 am

She was suspended without pay. She didn't take the leave voluntarily. She was sent home pending her appeals for some two months now and lost both appeals so far with the company. I call that losing a job.
 
madairdrie
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:40 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:49 am

Although I think this topic should probably be in Non Aviation, I will answer here since that is where it is.

This has been a complete and absolute total PR disaster for BA. The woman might be wrong in the way she has handled this, she might also have lots of baggage with her, but it does not stop the discussion about the cross.

BA's mistake the whole time was thinking it would go away, in the current climate and debate on religious expression there was no chance it would go away.

I also think they underestimated public opinion on this one. I have heard from many Christians and non Christians on this topic including some Atheists who think that BA is wrong on this debate. They actually like people expressing themselves in some simple way with a simple cross, or a simple symbol of any description.

The other thing that was a mistake was saying it was not a religious issue it was a jewellery issue. This cross for this lady was a religious symbol not a piece of jewellery.

The other mistake of the BA PR department was forgetting the great British thing of supporting the underdog against the big institution.

They also made the mistake of thinking this woman is nuts and a trouble maker. The public may actually agree with that point but also see that the issue over the cross as something else. The majority of people may not be defending the woman, but actually saying that rule of BA's is wrong and should be changed.

For those who think this is media hype I am a great believer the media only really go after these kind of stories if they are reflecting the majority of public opinion.

Just for reference Richard Branson was on TV the other night (This Week) and although he seemed reluctant to get involved very unlike him he was happy to say that Virgin would have allowed the cross.

Having said all this I love BA and think they are a great airline and I ultimately hope this discussion will make them even better and put a more positive image on them by listening to the public and their employees without being a controlling big brother.

Kenneth
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 43):
She was suspended without pay. She didn't take the leave voluntarily

NO, she is on Voluntary leave. They want her to come back as long as she stick's to the contract she signed, when she started with the company nigh on 10 years ago. They even offered her a job not front of house where she could where what she wanted. Front line staff of ALL airlines have strict policy. SHE bleed-in agreed to it, so should stick to the dam thing.
Where does the time go???
 
kellmark
Posts: 542
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:20 pm

Yes I know about the back office job offer. And I know about the agreement. Why doesn't that apply to Sikhs and Muslims who agree to it as well? They keep wearing their turbans, bracelets and hajibs.

She was told to go home if she refused to hide her cross. And why should she have to take a back office job if the Muslims and Sikhs don't have to? It is pure discrimination against Christians.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 46):
Yes I know about the back office job offer. And I know about the agreement. Why doesn't that apply to Sikhs and Muslims who agree to it as well? They keep wearing their turbans, bracelets and hajibs.

She was told to go home if she refused to hide her cross. And why should she have to take a back office job if the Muslims and Sikhs don't have to? It is pure discrimination against Christians.

 checkmark   checkmark  Even if she has forced the issue, the ruling made by BA management is policitically motivated and not a sustainable position.......
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18190
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:42 pm

Quoting Madairdrie (Reply 44):
including some Atheists who think that BA is wrong on this debate.

And include me - an atheist - in that number.

I have no problem with people who need to display some symbol of religious or societal belief or adherence, but the rule for one should be the rule for all.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: BA And 'the Cross'........

Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 46):
Yes I know about the back office job offer. And I know about the agreement. Why doesn't that apply to Sikhs and Muslims who agree to it as well? They keep wearing their turbans, bracelets and hajibs.

She was told to go home if she refused to hide her cross. And why should she have to take a back office job if the Muslims and Sikhs don't have to? It is pure discrimination against Christians.

Our (current) uniform regulations state that jewellery should be worn under the uniform. The cross on a chain is a piece of jewellery and thus should be worn under the uniform. How difficult is it to understand that? Our regulations permit certain items to be worn, such as a plain wedding band, and diamond earrings for ladies only. Again, not difficult to understand. Turbans and hijabs are also permitted, as they cannot realistically be 'covered up' at work. Explain to me how you would wear a turban or hijab, then cover it?!!

The point is this - the woman was wearing personal jewellery that is not permitted to be visibly worn at work. Simple as that.

She's in breach of her contract, she's lost her appeal, she needs to either get on with her uniformed role in accordance with uniform regulations, or accept the offer of a non-uniformed role if she wishes to continue to wear her personal jewellery. Her other option is to voluntarily leave BA. However, BA do NOT want that and want Miss Eweida to return to work. She has NOT lost her job, has NOT been fired and is REFUSING to return to work!

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