rocANDtpa
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FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:42 am

Eff. Jan. 4 Airtran is ending ROC-BOS. This is real surprising because US did not retaliate by adding a bunch of flights like they did with BUF-BOS when Jetblue announced that route.

Unrelated Question: How many flights can DL have at a station and still have Comair employees? BUF and ROC both had Comair employees, will these stations switch to DL employees with 3 DL flights a day?

Another Unrelated Question: The Commutair Dash 8s are suppose to be coming on line Jan. 1st. Have any routes or upgrades been announced yet?

[Edited 2006-11-24 22:44:21]
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:07 am

That is very surprising. ROC-BOS is a natural business route and FL has had a lot of success on other markets with a big business component out of ROC (ATL, DC area thru BWI). I wonder if JetBlue might jump on this one. Two daily EMB-190's would have 18 fewer seats apiece to fill and no front cabin to worry about.

Another possibility is that this route may be canceled seasonally rather than permanently. Think FL's seasonal BWI-MKE and BWI-DFW routes. I could see some leisure and VFR component being part of the ROC-BOS route as well, and that would likely drop off in winter due to Boston's cold-climate location.

Even though US didn't add capacity, if they matched fares, that might have been sufficient to keep AirTran from getting good yields on 206 coach seats and 24 business seats per day on a year-round basis.

Also, at BUF, US canceled their additional BOS capacity shortly after announcing it. How is JetBlue's BUF-BOS doing?

Jim
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WMUPilot
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:24 am

I would watch for B6 to jump on this route in the near future.
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A330323X
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 1):
Also, at BUF, US canceled their additional BOS capacity shortly after announcing it.

...um, no, they didn't.

They continue to operate 7x daily BUF-BOS roundtrips on Chautauqua ERJs, up from 4x daily pre-B6.
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panam330
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 3):
They continue to operate 7x daily BUF-BOS roundtrips on Chautauqua ERJs, up from 4x daily pre-B6.

SYR gets 3x DH8, 1x SF340 per day. Will US add some jets to the route? Also, LGA is 9x on most days, but we only have one jet flight on an ERJ. Any chance any of these frequencies will be upgraded as well?
 
OttoPylit
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting RocANDtpa (Thread starter):
Unrelated Question: How many flights can DL have at a station and still have Comair employees? BUF and ROC both had Comair employees, will these stations switch to DL employees with 3 DL flights a day?

Very unlikely you will see a station with both DL and OH agents, unless its a hub(CVG) or focus city(MCO). Other than that, they usually have one airline ground crews handle everything.

Normally(and what happened to BUF and ROC, if I remember correctly), they were Delta stations, but ended up being all DCI flights with 1 or 2 MD88's. So, DL changed the cities to pure DCI flying and re-assigned the DL employee's elsewhere, and instituted OH employees. And after 6 months or so, you being to see MD88's start returning to the station. It's somewhat sensible to do for a station that small that runs 10 or 12 flights a day with only one mainline flight as compared to a city that has a 50/50 combination of mainline and DCI. Thats the reason that most other stations wouldn't have to fear the same fate, as many mainline stations have a higher ratio of mainline flying than DCI flying. But rarely will you see DL and DCI folks working in the same station. There would be too many fights about why one is getting paid more than the other. lol



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knope2001
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:51 pm

Anything's possible, but ROC-BOS did very poorly for AirTran and I'd be surprised to see it come back. In July and August -- normally part of the summer peak -- BOS-ROC and ROC-BOS averaged only 37.8% full. Yes it was a new market, but AirTran is not exactly a new name in Rochester or Boston.

Many of AirTran's newest city pairs got pulled for this winter, including MDW-EWR, IND-LAX, IND-SFO, ATL-SEA and MDW-DFW. Those are all loaded to start again by May. BOS-ROC, DTW-BWI and the restored MKE-BWI, are not. At least not at this point.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 6):

Was MDW-DFW not performing well? I could have swore they had gone to 3 737s on the route last time I checked. I'm kind of baffled at their moves lately...does anyone have any insight to their moves?
 
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United_fan
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:57 am

That's too bad to hear. I hope they'de do better. I wish FL would do ROC-LAS ,say 5X a week with a 73G . Hell,WN does 2X a day BUF-LAS.
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:25 am

...um, no, they didn't.They continue to operate 7x daily BUF-BOS roundtrips on Chautauqua ERJs, up from 4x daily pre-B6.

Thanks for the correction. I thought I'd read here that US had canned the additional capacity. JetBlue's website is showing 3x BUF-BOS nonstop on Jan. 12 and Feb 28. How BUF supports all that capacity on both carriers I'd like to know; they're not that much bigger of an MSA than Rochester.

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FA4B6
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:57 am

B6 does very well on BOS-BUF but I dont see BOS-ROC starting anytime in the future. I think BOS-SYR would start first.
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B757capt
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 7):

Both DFW and EWR are performing great. problem is that the aircraft does round robins to DFW then mdw then EWR. ATC delays kill the ontime and kills the revenue..... Canceling it in the slow time helps us.

FYI sounds like we will pick up a lot of charters in the slow months. MILITARY stuff.
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TL8490
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
Thanks for the correction. I thought I'd read here that US had canned the additional capacity. JetBlue's website is showing 3x BUF-BOS nonstop on Jan. 12 and Feb 28. How BUF supports all that capacity on both carriers I'd like to know; they're not that much bigger of an MSA than Rochester.

Don't make the same mistake alot of legacy airlines make. The MSA has nothing to do with BUF and everything to do with Southern Ontario. The Canadian market is about half the traffic in and out of BUF. BUF supports 3 LCCs ...well not including US....who knows where they fall.

If DL, AA, and NW were really smart they would get rid of their connection carrier employees and go back to mainline folks and invest in some advertising in Canada. Just ask SW...BUF's largest carrier.
 
MAH4546
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 11):

Both DFW and EWR are performing great. problem is that the aircraft does round robins to DFW then mdw then EWR. ATC delays kill the ontime and kills the revenue..... Canceling it in the slow time helps us.

It does not make any sense still. Midway-Dallas and Midway-Newark are clearly business markets. Business demand doesn't really slow down between January and early April, when the routes are being suspended. If anything, it slows most in July and August. It is also a poor move to suspend flights on a business route, especially when you are trying to build up a loyal flier base on the route. They will suddenly see the flights suspended, and either a) not realize the service is resuming or b) realize it is resuming, and then question if airTran will be able to remain a stable carrier on the route.

IMO, airTran simply has not been able to break into the Midway-Dallas/Newark markets because other airlines - ATA and Continental, respectively - have long been entrenched in the market. With Charlotte, Boston, and, soon, Miami, they are the only carrier in the market. Wiith Minneapolis they compete with Northwest, but have a great following thanks to being the only low-fare airline in a very high fare market (sans lesiure oriented Sun Country).
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dutchjet
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 11):
Both DFW and EWR are performing great. problem is that the aircraft does round robins to DFW then mdw then EWR. ATC delays kill the ontime and kills the revenue..... Canceling it in the slow time helps us.

Even with ATC issues, why would AirTran cancel routes that are ""performing great"" - it simply makes no sense. AirTran is trying to grow, they would not discontinue routes that are making money.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
It does not make any sense still. Midway-Dallas and Midway-Newark are clearly business markets.

Agreed.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
IMO, airTran simply has not been able to break into the Midway-Dallas/Newark markets because other airlines - ATA and Continental, respectively - have long been entrenched in the market.

This is probably the correct answer - the subject routes were probably not making money due to intense competition. Maybe the airplanes were filled, but not at profitable fares.
 
zrb2
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RE: FL Ending ROC-BOS; DL Question

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Tl8490 (Reply 12):
The Canadian market is about half the traffic in and out of BUF. BUF supports 3 LCCs ...well not including US....who knows where they fall.

I read something a couple months ago that said Canadian travelers make up anywhere from 27% to 29% of the BUF traffic. That's not exactly "half" as you put it but it is rising and will be enough to get them over 5 million pax this year....a new record for BUF.

Also, from today's Buffalo News, more nonstop flights to Orlando are coming...

"AirTran Airways will launch its first direct flight from Buffalo Niagara International Airport on Jan. 11. The airline currently offers connecting service from Buffalo on 10 flights per day. As of Jan. 11, it will offer the new midafternoon direct flight to Orlando, as well as seven connecting flights.

And just in time for spring break, Southwest Airlines will add a third daily direct flight to Orlando, starting March 11."

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