columba
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Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:40 pm

Quote:
Lufthansa said on Friday foreign shareholders now owned more than 45 percent of its stock but that it had no plans for a capital increase.

In order to retain its operating license under European law and air traffic rights to international destinations outside Europe, an airline's foreign ownership may not exceed 50 percent of the share capital.

The carrier has the right to issue new shares to domestic investors if foreign ownership breaches the 45 percent level.

But a Lufthansa spokeswoman said the company had no plans for such a step. The firm was confident that even without counter-measures, the foreign-owned stake would not reach 50 percent.

The company is able to take a number of measures to ensure that its shareholder structure remains predominantly German. It is entitled to buy back its own shares once more than 40 percent are foreign-owned.

Foreign holdings in the firm breached that level in August, but Lufthansa at the time welcomed the mainly US and British investors and said it had no plans to buy back any stock.

Lufthansa is obliged to issue a statement when certain levels of foreign ownership are exceeded.

If foreign holdings were to breach the 50 percent mark, Lufthansa can intervene, for example by denying foreign investors the right to enter their stock into its shareholder register, the spokeswoman said.
(Reuters)



http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1164407935.html
Maybe this will help to stop the a.net legend that LH has to buy Airbus only....
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:15 pm

So who are these ''owners''? Any idea of who is the largest shareholder?

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Maybe this will help to stop the a.net legend that LH has to buy Airbus only

I don't see the connection...
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 1):
I don't see the connection...

Because people tend to say that the German goverment has so much influence on LH that they have to buy Airbus only but there can´t be any goverment influence if the airline has a foreign ownership of 45 %.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
UA777300ER
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
there can�t be any goverment influence if the airline has a foreign ownership of 45 %.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. There are many other ways a government can influence an airline without direct control of the airline.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:50 pm

The German government sold their last shares more than 10 years ago. The largest investor is the French AXA Group (insurance) with 10.76%.

The point where I read comments that suggest that LH might be influenced by the government is the point where its poster usually loses his credibility ... just plain nonsense. Even if one could say that LH pefers one OEM over another, LH management will have reasons for it that are rational enough to convince the supervisory board.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:36 pm

Also AF/KL has a 40+ % foreign ownership ...
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting UA777300ER (Reply 3):
I wouldn't be so sure of this. There are many other ways a government can influence an airline without direct contr

may be, but in a publicly owned company, the CEO/COO as well as the supervisory board might be personally liable if they make the wrong "political" decisions.

The Federal Republic has no shares, hence it has no voting rights in Lufthansa. The voting rights are with the shareholders and they fill the Cologne Arena very well on the AGM.
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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4):
The point where I read comments that suggest that LH might be influenced by the government is the point where its poster usually loses his credibility ... just plain nonsense.

I'm not too sure about this. The German government takes a lot of influence into companies decisions, remember the Siemens & BenQ issue lately? Our Chancelorette called Mr. Kleinfeld. And the EADS story? Merkel trying to safe German jobs? They may not have shares of LH anymore, but after these other stories, I can imagine they'll tell LH what they want them to fly. However, German companies contribute to Boeing planes, too.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:52 am

In fact AF/KL issued exactly the same statement one week ago. Privately, they seem happy that foreign ownership went above 45%, but they were obliged (under the Chicago convention) to issue a warning. LH did exactly the same just now.
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pelican
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 7):
remember the Siemens & BenQ issue lately? Our Chancelorette called Mr. Kleinfeld.

And? Do you think Mr. Kleinfeld says - "yes ma'am!". This is a typical political PR-stunt. It shows the voters that Mrs. Merkel is doing something about BenQ. Whether or how much this influences a company I can't say (but I guess very little).

pelican
 
gbfra
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:44 am

LH and AF belong to the most profitable airlines in the world and their future appears to be very promising. No wonder that international investors are putting money into them. It appears that these investors do not think that LH or AF are slaves to their governments.
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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
And? Do you think Mr. Kleinfeld says - "yes ma'am!". This is a typical political PR-stunt. It shows the voters that Mrs. Merkel is doing something about BenQ. Whether or how much this influences a company I can't say (but I guess very little).

Siemens just paid money for the employees of BenQ. € 180 million!

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,450500,00.html

This pressure of governments and the media works. Companies don't live in a vacuum, they need customers and sometimes the good will of authorities.
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):

Siemens just paid money for the employees of BenQ. € 180 million!

First of all, your translation is wrong. Siemens did not pay anything, they SET ASIDE UP TO 180 Million €. Other media information says that Siemens may only need less than half of that amount. Since Siemens still owes BenQ some money out of the deal, you can bet that BenQ will not see the part of the money paid out to former employees. This is indeed a PR matter, Siemens has trouble enough right now, they would not even need to do it since they hardly produce anything for B2C customers anymore, they are B2B almost exclusively. .

Next - you compare 2 completely different matters - a sale of a branch to a Taiwanese company gone wrong with the purchase of new aircraft. How can a CEO or the chief of a supervisory board listen to an "advice" of a politician, whoever that may be? A CEO is not resonsible to a politician but to his shareholders and the paragraphs of the "Aktiengesetz" (applicable law) only and the politician will not take responsibilty for his/her advise if the matter goes wrong.

Amy CEO receiveing a call will politely say that he will see what he can do and refer to the laws, his personal liability and the market conditions. We still have to learn in Germany that the market sets the rules. Mayrhuber and his board know that and they will buy the aircraft which are best on the market and for the intended task, not what Ms. Merkel or other politicians may tell them.

That can be Airbus or Boeing or both. And since the market works, contrary to popular belief in Germany, in every aspects, the passengers could not care less if they fly Airbus or Boeing, as long as they get the fare, go from A to B at the time they want and get the service they expect.
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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
First of all, your translation is wrong. Siemens did not pay anything, they SET ASIDE UP TO 180 Million �. Other media information says that Siemens may only need less than half of that amount.

And? They don't know how much they'll have to pay, so they set the money aside and will pay later. I doubt they would set aside twice the sum they need.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Since Siemens still owes BenQ some money out of the deal, you can bet that BenQ will not see the part of the money paid out to former employees. This is indeed a PR matter,

Even if they owe money, whatever of these 180 million will be paid - it's a loss for Siemens.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Siemens has trouble enough right now, they would not even need to do it since they hardly produce anything for B2C customers anymore, they are B2B almost exclusively.

Do you think in B2B nobody cares about the social responsibility of a company?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Next - you compare 2 completely different matters - a sale of a branch to a Taiwanese company gone wrong with the purchase of new aircraft.

The point is that German politicians intervene when German jobs are involved.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
How can a CEO or the chief of a supervisory board listen to an "advice" of a politician, whoever that may be? A CEO is not resonsible to a politician but to his shareholders and the paragraphs of the "Aktiengesetz" (applicable law) only and the politician will not take responsibilty for his/her advise if the matter goes wrong.

The politicians have a leverage. For example, it is rumored that our beloved government is not giving EK the rights to serve Berlin, in order to help LH. In case LH doesn't comply, they could end that kind of support. There are many other issues, and there are connections between government and companies.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
And since the market works

Except for 5 million unemployed.
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johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
Companies don't live in a vacuum, they need customers and sometimes the good will of authorities.

this is so true!!! this is the best line ever when it comes to the never ending topics of whether or not governments have impact on corporate decision making.

rgds
daniel
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):
Do you think in B2B nobody cares about the social responsibility of a company?

They have a better understanding of the situation than the general public. Stupid populism does not work here


Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):

The point is that German politicians intervene when German jobs are involved.

they can intervene as much as they like, if they pay out money a CEO might chose to take it, but at the end of the day he is in charge and not a politician and the same politician who has created the mess will blame the CEO for it.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):
The politicians have a leverage. For example, it is rumored that our beloved government is not giving EK the rights to serve Berlin, in order to help LH. In case LH doesn't comply, they could end that kind of support. There are many other issues, and there are connections between government and companies.

AFAIK EK has the rights to serve any place in Germany under the open skies agreement. Don't give anything on rumours. BTW, LH is making (or has made) good use of the open skies agreement with their SHJ cargo hub.

I have seen Messrs. Weber and Mayrhuber at several LH AGMs, they are company leaders, they do not "comply" . You have a wrong udnerstanding about how businesses are run, obviously.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):
Except for 5 million unemployed.

wrong again, there is no market because it is over regulated. Open up the jobs market in Germany and miracles will happen.
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jacobin777
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
Siemens just paid money for the employees of BenQ. € 180 million!

I own a rewritable BenQ dvd player...works great.. thumbsup 
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):

I own a rewritable BenQ dvd player...works great..

good for you.

@ Thorben - if the Government really wants to help Lufthansa they should speed up the process to get a new runway build at both FRA and MUC. That is all the help LH needs and that is what they cannot get accomplished by their own ressources.

It doesnot cost the Government a cent, it would generate new jobs by the tens of thousands, these jobs would contribute to the social system, pay taxes, the economic impact (which is lost every year due to the slow process) would be in the Billion€ range.

It is about time, economic thinking takes place in politics.
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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
@ Thorben - if the Government really wants to help Lufthansa they should speed up the process to get a new runway build at both FRA and MUC. That is all the help LH needs and that is what they cannot get accomplished by their own ressources.

You see? LH has a reason to make the government happy. And they won't do that with a large Boeing purchase. Not when you consider the way things look at EADS right now.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
It doesnot cost the Government a cent, it would generate new jobs by the tens of thousands, these jobs would contribute to the social system, pay taxes, the economic impact (which is lost every year due to the slow process) would be in the Billion� range.

It would also mean more pollution and more noise in the areas around it. Besides, you remember these endless legal issues about the runway west in FRA, the extension of the runway at XFW, the new airport at SXF? There are also disadvantages and thousands of people against, who go to every court they can find.


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
It is about time, economic thinking takes place in politics.

 sarcastic  Maybe Roland Berger should become chancellor? Then we could strip all unproductive people (unemployed) of their citizienship (IOW: fire them), neglect the environment, and outsource un-profitable states like McPomm, Brandenburch and Sachsen-Anhalt.  yuck 
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
if the Government really wants to help Lufthansa they should speed up the process to get a new runway build at both FRA and MUC

That would be up to the local goverments of Hesse and Bavaria and not the Federal Goverment.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):
And they won't do that with a large Boeing purchase. Not when you consider the way things look at EADS right now.

Even if the up-coming and long expected longhaul order will be only Boeing 787s and 747-8Is or 777-300ERs LH´s main line fleet would consists of only 2 Boeing types will still having a one of the largest Airbus fleets (A319/A320/A321, A330, A340-600 (even if the 787 would replace the A343 the A346 would stay a while) and A380). LH will definitely place an order for additional A320s since their latest purchase will not fill their need especially if some of the aircraft will be used for the new LCC Italianwings.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
jacobin777
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
good for you.

You didn't see the humour in my comment...regardless..nevermind...
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):

You didn't see the humour in my comment

I did, you didn't catch mine

Quoting Thorben (Reply 18):

It would also mean more pollution and more noise in the areas around it. Besides, you remember these endless legal issues about the runway west in FRA, the extension of the runway at XFW, the new airport at SXF? There are also disadvantages and thousands of people against, who go to every court they can find.

You really think that Germany is a Banana Republic, do you? It is up to the Federal Government to present legislation to the Bundestag to streamline the legal process in building large infrastructure projects. That has nothing to do with LH pleasing the Government by buying Airbus. That goes not only for runways but for roads, rail lines, power lines, canals etc. This country is chkoing istelf, preventing jobs to developm except useless ones in the legal business.

The predictions for the need of the # 4 runway at FRA was 2006, nothing happening so far, even 2011 is in doubt. The predictions were exactly right, FRA traffic stagnates because they cannot accomodate additional slots. Jobs are prevented and chances to make a living taken from hundreds if not thousands. Less taxes paid less contribution into the social system. That is what I mean with running the country like a business. Your answer to that is ignorant leftist bullshit.

Quoting Columba (Reply 19):
That would be up to the local goverments of Hesse and Bavaria and not the Federal Goverment.

No, see above. It has to be Federal legislation.

The conclusion is that Lufthansa makes its choice without any Government interference and regarding the crowded conditions here in FRA, they are in the excellent situation to have room for growth in Munich. At least for another 10 years.
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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa Foreign Ownership Over 45 %

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
Even if the up-coming and long expected longhaul order will be only Boeing 787s and 747-8Is or 777-300ERs LH´s main line fleet would consists of only 2 Boeing types will still having a one of the largest Airbus fleets (A319/A320/A321, A330, A340-600 (even if the 787 would replace the A343 the A346 would stay a while) and A380). LH will definitely place an order for additional A320s since their latest purchase will not fill their need especially if some of the aircraft will be used for the new LCC Italianwings.

Yes, but a large order for the competitors of the A380 and the A350 in these times would really have some outrage in this country.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
You really think that Germany is a Banana Republic, do you?

And you think it is the perfectly clean and honest democracy?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
It is up to the Federal Government to present legislation to the Bundestag to streamline the legal process in building large infrastructure projects. That has nothing to do with LH pleasing the Government by buying Airbus.

LH pleases government, government pleases LH, it's that simple.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
That goes not only for runways but for roads, rail lines, power lines, canals etc. This country is chkoing istelf, preventing jobs to developm except useless ones in the legal business.

Yes, but don't say that too loud, Columba might read it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Your answer to that is ignorant leftist bullshit.

 rotfl 

I need to put the finger in the wound of you capitalistic idealists sometimes.
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