zrs70
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UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:03 am

It seems that UA is the only major US carrier not to have gone through a merger in the past 20 years. Yet it still is amony the top 3 (2) largest US carriers.

I wonder how the lack of merger has helped or hindered the carrier.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:12 am

Still the same atrocious management!

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srbmod
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:18 am

United did own Air Wisconsin for a few years in the early 90s. While it was not merged into the company, it operated as a subsidiary (much like DL did with EV and still does with OH).
 
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Stitch
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:22 am

Well it really stuck it's neck out, fiscally, when it made the play for US that was blocked by the US government on anti-trust reasons. And while it wasn't a "merger" in the dictionary sense, UA did take a large part of Pan American's routes, fleets, and staff when that company started selling itself off in the 1980s and 1990s.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:38 am

Delta hasn't had any mergers in 19 years. How bout we count that one?

NS
 
Boston92
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:25 am

United has not merged in the past 20 because they don't need to. End of story.
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:57 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Still the same atrocious management!

Oh dear, your entitled to your opinion of course but without this management UA more than likely would be a memory now, some very tough decisions had to be made, saving lots of jobs in the process.

Getting back to the thread I think Stitch was right on. taking Pan Ams Pacific and LHR routes certainly help UA to enlarge.
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:13 pm

United did not involve in a full merger with another airlines, but it did purchased the following rights from Pan Am:

Asia Pacific operation (Including the NRT slots)
LHR rights and related operatation
Rights to fly Latin America out of MIA

Asia Pacifc routes have been a success from day one and with services to China since the purchase, UA has a dominant position between US and Asia-Pacific

LHR is going through downsizing with selling of slots to BA and leasing of slots to AC, and South America flights out of MIA has been killed.
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letsgetwet
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):



Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):
It seems that UA is the only major US carrier not to have gone through a merger in the past 20 years

Not for the lack of trying! If the government didn't stop them and US, this statement would be false.
 
jayspilot
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:12 pm

United bought PAN AM's ops listed above. They took Pan Am pilots and in a sense merged senority lists.

Delta did the same thing with the PAn Am Shuttle pilots and planes as well as its European ops, Frankfurt hub and the A-310 fleet.

You could argue that Pan am's flight ops and fleet were merged into 2 companies.
 
EMBQA
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Thread starter):
It seems that UA is the only major US carrier not to have gone through a merger in the past 20 years

Delta...?? They bought some of the Pan Am assets, but it was no merger.
Continentel...?? I can't think of anything. The deal with NW was a code share and not a true merger. They did come close to merge with DAL, but that fell through

[Edited 2006-11-26 16:41:03]
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JBo
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
Continentel...?? I can't think of anything.

Didn't CO buy out New York Air?
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knope2001
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:35 am

Existing carriers where someone else was consolidated in over the past 20 or so years:

Airtran (ValuJet)
--Bought AirTran and took over their name as part of merger

Alaska
--Jet America

USAirways (America West)
--Bought USAirways and took over their name as part of merger
--Piedmont
--Empire
--PSA

American
--TWA
--AirCal

ATA
none

Continental
--People Express
--Frontier
--Texas International (TI bought CO and took over their name)
--New York Air

Delta
--Western
--Pan Am Shuttle/Atlantic

Frontier
none

JetBlue
none

Midwest
none

Northwest
--Republic

Southwest
--Muse
--Morris

Spirit
none

United
--PanAm Pacific Division

Some of these are judgement calls, but in general if aircraft and employees are included, I think that counts. If it was just taking over route authority, I don't think it does. Also I did not include purchases without key integration such as Alaska buying Horizon, or any regional carrier mergers.
 
charlienorth
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
Continentel...?? I can't think of anything.

Didn't CO buy out New York Air?

Texas Air the company that owned New York Air among others purchased CAL and eventually lumped them into the CAL name in 1987..
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dtwclipper
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
Didn't CO buy out New York Air?

NY was a subsidiary of Texas Air Corp, as was Continental. We used Continental and Texas Air aircraft, and were always "Company" with Continental. Our last 737-3T0's were delivered in full CO colors with a sticker saying "owned and operated by New York Air". This was well before we were absorbed into CO.

NY was never Purchased by Continental, but rather folded into the company by Texas Air Corp.
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stirling
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:50 am

I am not sure the United purchase of PanAm's Pacific/Asia assets qualifies as a *Merger*.
So we need to go back to the Capital merger of 1961 as the last true consolidation of the whole of two airlines.

As important as the Asian routes are, the fact remains is that United has built a tremendous domestic network, almost single-handedly, over the course of 45 years.....and that with a "Retarded" management....maybe some should re-think that assessement?, no U.S. airline has been free of turbulence these 25 or so years post-deregulation.

But it is an interesting observation Zrs70, United's feat, when looked at objectively, is impressive....and just so you all know, the last UA flight I took was before most of you were born, they are far from my preferred airline, but I think it is high time to give credit where credit is due.
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UA772IAD
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 13):
American
--TWA
--AirCal

Add QQ (RenoAir) to that list
 
EMBQA
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 13):
Continental
--People Express
--Frontier
--Texas International (TI bought CO and took over their name)
--New York Air

Close...!! 19 years and 10 months ago...!! JUST made it under the 20 year clause. Feb 01, 1987

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 13):
Delta
--Western
--Pan Am Shuttle/Atlantic

Again..close. The Delta web site only shows 1987 as teh date of the Westren/Delta merger.. no actual date is listed. Pan Am mergred with no one. They shut down and were later picked apart. The term 'Merger' in my book is for two up and running companies that join forces willingly to become one single full running comany.

[Edited 2006-11-26 20:29:30]
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charlienorth
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
Close...!! 19 years and 10 months ago...!! JUST made it under the 20 year clause. Feb 01, 1987

ONE UGLY DAY!!!...I worked for a ground handling company in MSP,the feds grounded a PEX/CAL 747 that was flinga some package charter,they than flew another 74 on a rescue,it was promptly grounded,they sat for at least a week,it was a media feeding frenzy with all the happy campers,from what I have heard this was the least on CAL's problems at the time.
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masseybrown
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:36 am

The above lists of mergers seem to me to be the perfect argument AGAINST airline mergers. Only the M&A people on Wall Street win.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
Pan Am mergred with no one. They shut down and were later picked apart.

Delta took control of the Atlantic Division (save for DTW/London) and the shuttle well before Pan Am shut down.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 6):
Oh dear, your entitled to your opinion of course but without this management UA more than likely would be a memory now, some very tough decisions had to be made, saving lots of jobs in the process.

Getting back to the thread I think Stitch was right on. taking Pan Ams Pacific and LHR routes certainly help UA to enlarge.

Should have been obvious from the rest of my post, the part you didn't copy and paste, that I was saying that tongue-in-cheek, and that wasn't my opinion at all.
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N200WN
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
Also I did not include purchases without key integration such as Alaska buying Horizon, or any regional carrier mergers.

Then you would have to exclude Muse Air from Southwest, as they were never merged or integrated into WN.

Also, if we're including Pan Am's Asian and Euro services being purchased by UA and DL, should we also include AA taking over Eastern's South American operation, which they in turn inherited from Braniff?
 
PVG
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
Continental
--People Express
--Frontier
--Texas International (TI bought CO and took over their name)
--New York Air

Aren't there pieces of the old Eastern in there as well?
 
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knope2001
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 16):
Add QQ (RenoAir) to that list

Thanks...they slipped my mind.

Quoting N200WN (Reply 22):
Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
Also I did not include purchases without key integration such as Alaska buying Horizon, or any regional carrier mergers.

Then you would have to exclude Muse Air from Southwest, as they were never merged or integrated into WN.

Muse (renamed TranStar after Southwest bought them) aircraft were never rolled into the Southwest fleet -- they were M80/D95 and Southwest was 737. I decided to include them primarily based on employees ultimately being integrated into Southwest. If in fact Southwest just bought Muse, changed their name to TranStar,and eventually just shut it down and laid everybody off, that's not much of a merger.
 
PanHAM
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past

Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 9):

You could argue that Pan am's flight ops and fleet were merged into 2 companies.

no, you can't. That was an asset purchase. not a merger.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 19):
Only the M&A people on

finally found the correct term in reply 19. M&A stands for mergers and akquisitions.

One can argue if the Delta purchase of Western was a merger or an akquisition, the purchase of TWA's ghost by AA certainly was not a merger, neither was Reno Air and AirCal.

A merger is usually between 2 more or less equal partners, anything below that is an akquisition and the operations of the smaller company are integrated into the larger company.

By that definition, UA and AA and possibly DL and with some doubts NW are standing out

Reminds me of the old joke in the transport related railroad industry -
Union Pacific is actually the only Class 1 RR that still has its original name. When they took over Southern Pacific, UP kept it's first name and SP it's last name.


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jetjack74
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
USAirways (America West)
--Bought USAirways and took over their name as part of merger
--Piedmont
--Empire
--PSA

Mohawk airlines-although more than 20 years ago.
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zrs70
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
One can argue if the Delta purchase of Western was a merger or an akquisition, the purchase of TWA's ghost by AA certainly was not a merger, neither was Reno Air and AirCal.

Well, here is a cut and paste from the DL website:

"1987 Western Airlines merges with Delta; becomes the fourth largest U.S. carrier and fifth largest world carrier. First transpacific service begins: Atlanta to Portland, Oregon, to Tokyo. Ronald W. Allen becomes Chairman and CEO."

On the other hand, from AA's website:

"In April 2001, American Airlines completed acquisition of TWA's assets."
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rampart
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
American
--TWA
--AirCal



Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 24):
If in fact Southwest just bought Muse, changed their name to TranStar,and eventually just shut it down and laid everybody off, that's not much of a merger.

This is similar to how AA handled Reno and Aircal, how US handled PSA, and how WN (again) handled Morris. Not everyone was laid off (didn't WN use some Transtar and Morris employees?), beyond that there wasn't much intergration in the end, and cities were dropped rather than added.

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 12):
USAirways (America West)
--Bought USAirways and took over their name as part of merger
--Piedmont
--Empire
--PSA

True enough in the big picture, but wasn't it Piedmont who bought/merged Empire prior to the US/Piedmont merger? Piedmont counted Syracuse as one of their hubs. Empire was more of a regional airline (even more so than the roots of Piedmont).

Just think, had WN kept all their Morris cities, they would have served Denver, plus Colorado Springs, 14 years earlier.

-Rampart

[Edited 2006-11-27 18:22:58]
 
PanHAM
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 27):
"1987 Western Airlines merges with Delta; beco

,,,and that is exactly why I said (without googling history) one can ARGUE...

DL at that time was much bigger than WA. If they agreed on an equal terms merger, fine with me.
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AADC10
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 1):
Still the same atroPcious management!

The management may have been atrocious, but it has completely changed at least twice over the last 20 years, so they may be idiots, but they are not necessarily the same cast of idiots.

One of the reasons for the lack of mergers was that before the AA purchase of TW assets, UA was the largest airline and pre-9/11 faced a lot of anti-trust scrutiny. Actually AA probably would have faced the same anti-trust problem but they bypassed it by purchasing the assets, rather than actually merging and using a "failing company" exception. Post 9/11 of course most airlines were too weak to merge.
 
zrs70
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RE: UA: Only US Major Without A Merger In The Past 20?

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
,,,and that is exactly why I said (without googling history) one can ARGUE.

I was quoting these in your support, not to argue!
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