dmanmtl
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:53 am

Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:14 am

Last week, I flew from JFK to SFO on United in biz class, on one of the Premium Service 757-200...very nice plane and service by the way (trip report pending.,..will be my first).

This is what I found bizarre: We pushed back about 15 minutes late at 8:30, once on the apron, the pilot came on the PA and told us there were 30 something plance in front of us for take off and we would be on the ground for close to 90 minutes (wow!! thats a long time and a lot of planes)...Well, immediately, a bunch of people in biz put their seats down flat and assumed the "ready to sleep position"...I was reluctant to do this as I did not want to sleep for an hour, have to sit up for take off and then have to get back to sleep, so I read.

Well, an hour and 20 minutes later, the pilot announced that we would take off and asked the flight attendants to prepare for take off...I thought they would come through the cabin and make everyone sit up...but Nope, they did not, never saw a flight attendant during the whole wait. I was shocked when we started our takeoff roll and most of the people around me were laying down, the guy next to me was atually sleeping, mask on ear plugs in.

Now most of my flying experience is with AC and the only long haul I have ever flown is YUL ->LHR and back and every time we take off, everyone must be sitting up straight.

Is this standard procedure on United or is it a regular thing on all airlines...I found it very odd (yet I did not mind).

D In Mtl
 
Boston92
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:18 am

The F/A's were probably sleeping too!!
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:20 am

Perhaps the F/As hadn't nocited that some passengers had reclined.

I wish I had been able to do that while I waited last week for about an hour in the take off line at JFK, very common while fronts are moving in.

[Edited 2006-11-27 02:21:50]
No Vueling No Party
 
fly727
Posts: 1752
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Dmanmtl (Thread starter):
s this standard procedure on United or is it a regular thing on all airlines...I found it very odd (yet I did not mind).

No, it is not standard procedure. Standard is -mandatory as a matter of fact- to have the seats on its most vertical position to both unblock the exit path of other seats and protect the body from cervical injuries in case of an accident.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
Cessna057
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:17 pm

I was on a UA flight yesterday and got a similar type of thing. the minute we touched the ground about 4 or 5 people jumped out of their seats, grabbed their stuff and stood in the rows while we taxiied into the gate waiting to get out of the plane. And what really got me was that the F/As just kind of looked at them and didnt do anything.
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
FA4B6
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:42 pm

Complacency at its best!

 duck   duck 
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
Bisbee
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:16 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:57 am

Maybe the guy next to you was the pilot and the flight attendants were flying the airplane, you know, kind of multi tasking, ha, ha.
 
IDISA
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:18 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:00 am

No, it's absolutely non-standard procedure but a very bad habit that some people can't avoid and it's a severe violation of the safety procedures on board, a remarkable miss for UA flight attendants, in my opinion.
Imagine what could have happened in case of aborted take-off or in the worst case of an accident...
Unfortunately it's a widespread bad habit, I've recently been on a AZ flight from MXP to TXL and two women sat behind me refused to turn off their mobiles. Another time happened on a SK flight, I remember we've just touched down and with the aircraft still reversing on the runway when a sudden thrill of a cellphone was heard in the cabin...

IDISA
 
AA767400
Posts: 1889
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:16 am

This happens all the time.

Most of the time people could care less about rules. Hence when they are enforced by a Crew member reactions are typically hostile.

People insult, belittle, or just ignore the Crew member. It also sets a tone for the rest of the flight, and then the passenger takes it out on the Crew member, or think that the Crew member is "picking" on them.

This is why many Flight Attendants look the other way at this kind of stuff. I mean I don't blame them. You have to pick your battles sometimes.

Cellphones don't work once the wheels are off the ground pretty much, so they can't keep chatting.
"The low fares airline."
 
ChicagoFlyer
Posts: 209
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:27 am

Doesn't "Flight attendants prepare for takeoff" mean that FAs should stop whatever they are doing, sit down and buckle up? There's usually only a couple of minutes before the advisory and the actual take off (while there's perhaps 15 minutes between "prepare for landing" advisory and actual landing, so they have time to walk about the cabin). I wonder if any of the actual F/As can clear this up?

Technically, everyone of the pax had been told in the safety demonstration what they should do. Reality... well, the original post does not surprise me. I have on occasion played the flight attendant--policing the upright seatbacks--especially if the person reclining was in front of my seat  Smile However when you have Business class pax recline their seats to near flat, it should pretty obvious, and an F/A maybe should use the PA system to make a gentle reminder.

Perhaps the biz class F/A is not the purser who is doing all the PA communication on the plane. In any case, I don't the situation described has anything to do with UA's polcies, as others have noted.
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:29 am

Some of the rules are too strict (eg no electric devices on during taxiing, as anyway most of them such as cameras or laptops won't emit radio waves but I understand it's hard to tell which is which). However the rule of having all seat-backs up and everybody seated are pretty obvious.

On US airlines, usually the FAs are particularly firm (or in other words, abusing the little authority they can have) with those rules. Looks like UA is changing ... maybe a bit too fast.
 
silentbob
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 8):
This happens all the time.

Most of the time people could care less about rules. Hence when they are enforced by a Crew member reactions are typically hostile.

People insult, belittle, or just ignore the Crew member. It also sets a tone for the rest of the flight, and then the passenger takes it out on the Crew member, or think that the Crew member is "picking" on them.

This is why many Flight Attendants look the other way at this kind of stuff. I mean I don't blame them. You have to pick your battles sometimes.

Cellphones don't work once the wheels are off the ground pretty much, so they can't keep chatting.

I'm 6-1 235, people generally don't get too hostile towards me when I enforce the rules. I do agree about picking your battles, you do have to pick the ones that violate FARs though.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 10):
Some of the rules are too strict (eg no electric devices on during taxiing, as anyway most of them such as cameras or laptops won't emit radio waves but I understand it's hard to tell which is which). However the rule of having all seat-backs up and everybody seated are pretty obvious.

Plus laptops, as well as lap children, turn into unsecured projectiles in the event of a sudden stop or crash.

But as I posted in the recent "seatbelt sign" thread, people in general are anti authority and are going to do whatever they feel like, screw the rules. It's not just an airplane thing.
The only way for an airline to effectively enforce some of the things they are liable for would be through actual physical restraint. But that won't happen so all they can do, as someone said above, is pick their battles and cover their asses.
I always thought there should be a way for the F/A's to mechanically lock out lav doors, seat recline, tray tables, overhead bins, etc. until safety dictates otherwise. Seatbelts still under pax control though.
Then if someone wants to get out of their seat at the wrong time then they still can, but there will be no reason to do so as there won't be anything to do or anywhere to go.

[Edited 2006-11-27 21:59:36]

As to the original post, if you are fully reclined during takeoff you are asking to be singled out and picked on quite frankly. I am a Silver or Gold member of more than a few airline mileage programs. But in reading the material and benefits booklet, nowhere does it state that I am entitled to blatantly disregard safety related regulations.
If someone wants to take themselves out that's fine with me, but in an airplane doing so you also put others at risk and that's not acceptable.

[Edited 2006-11-27 22:13:19]
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:57 am

Some people seem to think that rules don't apply to them. I had some idiot recline his seat the moment he sat down and he was told on four separate occasions prior to the aircraft leaving the gate to put his seat up. Each time he would complie only to recline it once the flight attendant moved on up the aisle. People like that should just be tossed of the plane. To make matters worse he was sitting in an exit row and paid no attention to the briefing. Made me feel really secure as his ability to open the exit could decide whether I lived or not. Airlines really need to revise the screening process for exit row seating.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3625
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:14 am

The only way for an airline to effectively enforce some of the things they are liable for would be through actual physical restraint.

You don't need to get physical, just ask the pilot to drive around LAX until all seats are in the upright position. The tour will get really old really fast...
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
silentbob
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:25 am

Usually the threat of having to have them removed if they don't comply is enough to resolve the situation. It's not the first thing you should say but if you have to tell them more than twice, you may need to mention it.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 14):
You don't need to get physical, just ask the pilot to drive around LAX until all seats are in the upright position. The tour will get really old really fast...

Or park in the penalty box.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
dkf747
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:23 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:42 am

I thought the FAA fined airlines for stuff like the OP mentioned?
 
S5FA170
Posts: 528
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 10):
Some of the rules are too strict (eg no electric devices on during taxiing, as anyway most of them such as cameras or laptops won't emit radio waves but I understand it's hard to tell which is which).

Laptops, etc - generally are not allowed to be used during taxi-in because they inhibit quick evacuation of the aircraft should one become necessary, as well as the fact they are unsecured projectiles as previously mentioned. If you're laptop is on your lap, or, even worse, on a tray-table, you are now no longer able to quickly vacate your seat through a clear path to the exit.

Quoting Dkf747 (Reply 17):
I thought the FAA fined airlines for stuff like the OP mentioned?

The FAA can fine the airlines for these types of infractions. I'm not sure if they always do, or not, but I do know they frequently ride on air carriers to monitor their compliance and provide that feedback to the airline's Inflight Department. Every so often we'll get memos from Inflight reminding us of various things that need to be enforced that the FAA noticed were not being enforced on our flights.

-Tony
Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 18):
If you're laptop is on your lap, or, even worse, on a tray-table, you are now no longer able to quickly vacate your seat through a clear path to the exit.

Or worse, blocking someone else.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5828
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:46 am

UA's F/A shouldn't piss off the passengers flying the high profile PS 757 service. Know when to pick your fight. UA's F/A's did well leaving the passengers alone.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
UA's F/A shouldn't piss off the passengers flying the high profile PS 757 service. Know when to pick your fight. UA's F/A's did well leaving the passengers alone.

Didn't realize FAR's were discretionary. The F/A's did what was easiest, but were incorrect.
I can cite the regulation to that effect, but am at a loss in locating the sub part where compliance is optional based on the type of product offered?
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
JROTTO
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:40 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Dmanmtl (Thread starter):
Well, immediately, a bunch of people in biz put their seats down flat and assumed the "ready to sleep position"...I was reluctant to do this as I did not want to sleep for an hour, have to sit up for take off and then have to get back to sleep, so I read.

Well, an hour and 20 minutes later, the pilot announced that we would take off and asked the flight attendants to prepare for take off...I thought they would come through the cabin and make everyone sit up...but Nope, they did not, never saw a flight attendant during the whole wait. I was shocked when we started our takeoff roll and most of the people around me were laying down, the guy next to me was atually sleeping, mask on ear plugs in.

The exact same thing happened to me on a CO flight from LHR to EWR but the delay wasnt even that long!
 
jasond
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:15 am

Well, the fact that passengers aren't prepared for takeoff is a little disturbing. As for the other issue of people standing while waiting for the aircraft to get to the gate is amusing at best and irritating at worst. Getting to work by bus everyday you see similar practices as I see people out of their seats while the bus is still 2 stops away from its destination. As with when I am on aircraft I simply wait for the big rush to dissipate then I disembark at my leisure. Afterall there is no hurry, you still have to congregate around the baggage carousel anyway to get your luggage, I don't get it!!!
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
UA's F/A shouldn't piss off the passengers flying the high profile PS 757 service. Know when to pick your fight. UA's F/A's did well leaving the passengers alone.

Piss off the passengers?!? By your flawless logic, we should avoid pissing them off by making them pass through security checks or subjecting their baggage to screening. I mean, come on. High-profile be damned. Think about the profile received should the plane skid off the end of the runway and some slob in a reclined seat ends up in a wheelchair due to being crumpled into the back of the seat in front of him, or the post-crash accident report shows that 45 people burned because they couldn't access the exit door due to that fully-reclined seat found in the wreckage.

If a passenger - regardless of fare paid or ff status - refuses to comply with the regs, then they should be removed from the plane without even the benefit of a b-bye. If the FA refuses to enforce those same regs they too should be escorted from the company. They're not there to serve drinks, their main purpose is to ensure the safety of the customers in the event of something going awry.

Picking your battles is not an option in this case.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:39 am

Too bad the FAA wasn't doing an undercover check ride. UA would have been fined up the yin-yang for not having passengers prepared for take off.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ualcsr
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: Bizarre Takeoff Scenario...UAL From JFK

Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 25):
Too bad the FAA wasn't doing an undercover check ride. UA would have been fined up the yin-yang for not having passengers prepared for take off.

Yup. I was actually a "ghost rider" for UA in the early 90s and not going through the cabin to check upright position, etc. was a big no-no. Another biggie was not starting a seat belt check within one minute of the seat belt sign going on (during turbulence, e.g.). Don't know if this rule still exists.

Given that, I would hope that this was an isolated inicident. As a former UA employee who made maximum use of travel benefits, gotta' say that I thought UA FAs were extremely diligent in following FAA regulations.

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