su
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Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:28 pm

SU now is looking into possibility to get 10 second hand A330s by 2008 for 6,7 year lease in order to feel the gap of its long haul fleet until they get 787s or A350s. Additionally, SU is planning to buy additional 45 A32X family planes by 2010.

This is being looked after missing the deadline for placing the 787 orders in the beginning of November and urge for long haul fleet update.

This is a very surprising decision. Right now SU’s long haul consists of 767s and IL96s and SU’s plans are to retire these planes by 2010.

Is this a move to prepare long haul fleet for A350?

Where are they going to get these A330s and are there 10 second hand A330s available in the market?

Any guess if it will be A330-2 or 330-3?

Will 787 or A350 be available to SU after 7,8 years?
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bhxdtw
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:41 pm

Yeah, I thought thats the 2nd hand A330 market was very small....
they wouldnt be coming from a smaller carrier like Air Luxor or something could they ??
 
Danny
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:53 pm

Seems like a good idea but they ignored just one problem - there are hardly any second-hand A330s. And when some show up usually there is a lot of takers.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:58 pm

Second-hand A330s are rarer than the rarest thing they make at the factory where they make very rare things. yes 

Otherwise, a good plan!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting SU (Thread starter):
This is a very surprising decision. Right now SU's long haul consists of 767s and IL96s and SU's plans are to retire these planes by 2010. Is this a move to prepare long haul fleet for A350?

Doesn't strike me as surprising, though I believe Keesje first raised this possibility last week and I noted "tongue-in-cheek" that I was skeptical of SU being allowed to order anything.

SU still has a little less then a week to consummate their deal with Boeing to get 787s in 2010. This A330 lease might be a way to allow that Boeing order to go through, while still maintaining leverage over the EU (in combination with the 45-frame A320 order) while they wait for the A350XWB to both be formally offered for sale and while they wait for it to be available for delivery. While the "plan" is to get A330s in 2008-2009, more likely they will arrive next decade to help balance out the fleet replacement as 787s arrive or they'll never actually be taken, but will instead just "place hold" until the A350XWB's arrive.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
Seems like a good idea but they ignored just one problem - there are hardly any second-hand A330s. And when some show up usually there is a lot of takers.

Maybe they can get those A330's when US dumps theirs after they buy out DL and go for an "all-Boeing" widebody fleet..... stirthepot   duck 
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su
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
SU still has a little less then a week to consummate their deal with Boeing to get 787s in 2010.

I thought they missed that deadline...
"Life is too short to take it serious..."
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting SU (Reply 6):
I thought they missed that deadline...

Boeing extended it until December 1st (and may do so again if warranted).
 
afay1
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:08 pm

Sometimes I think Aeroflot's PR computer system has a virus that every few days automatically spits out a press release with differing aircraft types, lease dates, and EIS times. The virus is also a variant of the "Sheremetyevo III will certainly open for sure by, no we really mean it this time,1993, 1995, 1997, 2001, etc." virus...
 
Danny
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing extended it until December 1st

Why would they do it if apparently there is a crowd of airlines waiting for these slots?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
Why would they do it if apparently there is a crowd of airlines waiting for these slots?

Most likely because they are hopeful now that the US has kept their part of the "deal" and allowed Russia to enter the WTO, Russia will now uphold their end and allow the 22 frame order to go through.

Also, we don't know (do we?) that all 22 frames are slated for a 2010 delivery. It could be only a handful are and the rest spread out later (like 2013 or later) in which case they might not be as desirable to a new carrier wanting to place a large order.
 
WINGS
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:14 pm

While I would love to see Aeroflot introduce the A330 into it's fleet, I reserve some doubts as to where they will be getting those second hand examples from.

If Aeroflot would become a launch customer for the A350X , I'm sure that Airbus and Aeroflot can reach an agreement into a lease deal, like we have seen with SQ. Apart from this scenario I don't think we will see such number of A330's becoming available in that time period.

Has anyone actually noticed, that this would make Aeroflot the second Russian airline to show interest in the A330? A few months ago we heard rumours about Transaero interesting acquiring 8 frames + A32X.

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

Regards,
Wings
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su
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):

Cause we are nice...   

[Edited 2006-11-27 15:16:15]
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su
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
Has anyone actually noticed, that this would make Aeroflot the second Russian airline to show interest in the A330? A few months ago we heard rumours about Transaero interesting acquiring 8 frames + A32X.

Yeap - I am with you...
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Danny
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
US has kept their part of the "deal" and allowed Russia to enter the WTO

It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO. That is why they have to split the order. But they will continue to play it in my opinion. Remember that Putin is a KGB guy, he loves those games.
 
brendows
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

That might not be the case, did you forget this one Wings? Smile:
Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion
There are airlines that don't have the market to fill a A330. In such cases, why would operating 767s be such a bad choice? boggled 

I have to join that crowd that wonders about where SU are going to get ten 2nd hand A330s from...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO. That is why they have to split the order. But they will continue to play it in my opinion. Remember that Putin is a KGB guy, he loves those games.

Oh I agree that Russia wants something from the EU, which is why they continue to dangle the A350XWB in front of them and why they suddenly decided to double the order to 44 frames instead of the original "winner take all" 22-frame order. However, if Russia renegs on the 787, there will be some "blow back" from the US which is why I believe they will do it.

Also, if Russia disses the US, nothing prevents them from dissing the EU later, so that will make the EU less receptive to the "carrot" of the A350XWB and/or A330 order.
 
osiris30
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing extended it until December 1st (and may do so again if warranted).

For the sake of accuracy, Boeing extended the pricing.. not the slots..
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
su
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
It wasn't just US who allowed them in WTO.

That's true - part of the deal between Russia and EU was for Russia to eliminate overflight fees and as far as i know Russia promised to completely eliminate overflying fees by 2013 which is a very good news for all carriers...
"Life is too short to take it serious..."
 
WINGS
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):

Another ironic point is Austrian Airlines and it's will to dispose of it's A330 fleet, in favour for the B767. Looks like they are the only ones going against the flow.

That might not be the case, did you forget this one Wings? Smile:
Brussels Airline's 767 Long Haul Expansion

Greeting's Brendows,

You pointed out a good example, so with all due respect I will provide you with my views in regards to this particular move by Brussels Airlines.

Brussels Airlines are a current A330 operator. They have mentioned that they are looking and prefer to upgrade with more A330´s due to commodity and the A330's superior cargo capability. They may have to go with the B767 because they simply cant afford or can't manage to get additional A330's in the second hand market, in the time frame that they desire.

Quoting Brendows (Reply 15):
There are airlines that don't have the market to fill a A330. In such cases, why would operating 767s be such a bad choice?

The Boeing 767 is a magnificent airplane which has proven to be a reliable workhorse among the finest airlines and for this reason the B767 is not a bad option, but it is the second best option. Even if an airline does not have the capability to fill up an A330 they can always opt to provide a premium service with more room onboard. Another advantage of the A330 vs the B767 is it's cargo capability.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3):
Second-hand A330s are rarer than the rarest thing they make at the factory where they make very rare things.

Very clever! Must remember that one.

Seriously though...I can't imagine there are dozens of A330s in storage just standing around collecting dust. Good luck SU.
A330 man.
 
ZBA320
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 20):
Seriously though...I can't imagine there are dozens of A330s in storage just standing around collecting dust. Good luck SU.

Indeed. Although in over 5 years time after the B787 comes into service perhaps we will be seeing a start of a new trend of A330s been parked. Or at least a some kind of trend for B763ERs.

The sad story of economics.

[Edited 2006-11-27 17:45:18]
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scouseflyer
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
If Aeroflot would become a launch customer for the A350X , I'm sure that Airbus and Aeroflot can reach an agreement into a lease deal, like we have seen with SQ. Apart from this scenario I don't think we will see such number of A330's becoming available in that time period.

I'm wondering too if this is a miss reporting of a possible similar deal to the SQ A330/350 shuffle that will make the A330 the plane of choice for conversion into frieghters in about 8 years time!
 
Thorben
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Maybe they can get those A330's when US dumps theirs after they buy out DL and go for an "all-Boeing" widebody fleet..... stirthepot duck

When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.

Speak German?
http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsi...D=53a5ae1ec752c01b13cd32265943b281

Concerning the thread: A330s are probably just right for SU, they have many Airbus pilots and what else should they get for a decent expansion/replacement of the 767s? However, this doesn't change much about the chances of the 787 and A350 in the longer run.

They would need new A330s, I don't see many used ones on the market.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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N328KF
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.

I don't see how that has anything to do with this other than your wishful thinking. The fact of the matter is that if Delta and US Airways merged, the merged entity would likely choose the best aircraft for the new route map.

One major factor is the fact that Delta's fleet is more oriented towards long-haul than US Airways' fleet. US Airways has nothing like the 777-200ER, let alone the 777-200LR.

And US Airways is not an inherently Airbus-biased carrier, which you seem to have frequently been confused about. This US Airways is simply the rebadged America West, and they appear to have no bias in either direction. The composition of the current fleet seems to be revolve around fleet rationalization with respect to their routes than anything else, but inheriting Delta's fleet would give them quite a number of shiny new Boeings. It'd be harder to justify getting rid of them when they would need such airframes for long haul routes.

With that said, I could completely see a new Delta operating a mixed fleet. The fleet would be large enough to justify both types (see: UA.)

Imagine if you will, a new Delta with 737NGs, A320 series, a very large fleet of 757s, A330s and newer 767s, and a few 777s for the heavy routes.

[Edited 2006-11-27 19:17:24]
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jacobin777
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):

When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.

..with Boeing being the primary driver on the creditor board (which UA must get clearance from), and given the massive Boeing fleet both DL and UA have (combined in total)...I doubt Boeing is going to agree to let a new UA go with all Airbus....

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Doug Parker has already contacted Boeing regarding this....

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
Speak German?
http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsi...D=53a5ae1ec752c01b13cd32265943b281

Unfortunately I dont.... Sad

Tried the Google language tool, but it wasn't too good..
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Thorben
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
I don't see how that has anything to do with this other than your wishful thinking.

The thought originally come from the "Seattle Post-Intelligencer". I looked there, but I didn't find it.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
One major factor is the fact that Delta's fleet is more oriented towards long-haul than US Airways' fleet. US Airways has nothing like the 777-200ER, let alone the 777-200LR.

But US has 9 A333s and ordered 10 A332s and 20 A350s.  eyebrow 

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
And US Airways is not an inherently Airbus-biased carrier, which you seem to have frequently been confused about.

Their business relationship with airbus is better than Delta's.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
but inheriting Delta's fleet would give them quite a number of shiny new Boeings. It'd be harder to justify getting rid of them when they would need such airframes for long haul routes.

Except for the T7s and the 738s, there are no shiny new ones.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
Imagine if you will, a new Delta with 737NGs, A320 series, a very large fleet of 757s, A330s and newer 767s, and a few 777s for the heavy routes.

I imagine them getting more A321s and A330s to replace 757 and 767.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
..with Boeing being the primary driver on the creditor board (which UA must get clearance from), and given the massive Boeing fleet both DL and UA have (combined in total)...I doubt Boeing is going to agree to let a new UA go with all Airbus....

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Doug Parker has already contacted Boeing regarding this....

Is DL now merging with UA???
However, DL doesn't have any Airbus, US does have quite a few.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
Tried the Google language tool, but it wasn't too good..

The basic message is that DL is a candidate for the 787, but this is questioned because of the US Airways A350 order and their current A330 fleet. And they have that from the Seattle Post.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
stirling
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 8):
Sometimes I think Aeroflot's PR computer system has a virus that every few days automatically spits out a press release with differing aircraft types, lease dates, and EIS times. The virus is also a variant of the "Sheremetyevo III will certainly open for sure by, no we really mean it this time,1993, 1995, 1997, 2001, etc." virus...

That's FUNNY!!!

Quoting SU (Thread starter):
Where are they going to get these A330s and are there 10 second hand A330s available in the market?



Quoting Danny (Reply 2):
there are hardly any second-hand A330s



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3):
Second-hand A330s are rarer than the rarest thing they make at the factory where they make very rare things



Quoting WINGS (Reply 11):
While I would love to see Aeroflot introduce the A330 into it's fleet, I reserve some doubts as to where they will be getting those second hand examples from.



Quoting SU (Thread starter):
SU now is looking into possibility to get 10 second hand A330s by 2008 for 6,7 year lease

All the above are true statements, but I do not believe it to be as difficult as it might appear.

What I want to know is if the Press-Release specifically mentions "Second-Hand"? It makes a big difference.

With 10 frames for 6 to 7 years, conceivably, it would be profitable for one of the leasing giants, ILFC, GECAS, could order them fresh from the factory, to be leased to SU. Now would Aeroflot be able to afford the lease rates?

The A330 will not become instantly redudant once the 787 is released, or even the A350....it will take years for these two aircraft to become the standards within their segments.

So after the leases of these 10 A330s are up, the leasing company would still have a valuable aircraft it could turn around and lease to another airline, quite possibly in a 2nd or 3rd world nation, or heck, the Euro IT companies, maybe cargo conversions?

Point is, there is going to be a market for A330s for at least another 15, maybe even 20 or 25 more years. Just look at the DC-10: going on 32 years, and the DC-8, even older and still finding life as a box-hauler. Too bad the same were not true for the A330's sister the earlier-build A340s.

Anything is possible for an excellent airplane such as the A330.
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N328KF
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
But US has 9 A333s and ordered 10 A332s and 20 A350s.

Tiny compared to Delta's Boeing widebody fleet.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):

Their business relationship with airbus is better than Delta's.

I was never arguing that a new Delta wouldn't do business with Airbus. I was arguing that it was silly to insinuate that a new Delta would only deal with Airbus. A new Delta would have a 75% Boeing fleet and Boeing as a major creditor. Do you seriously think they'd leave BCA in the cold? Forget that.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
Except for the T7s and the 738s, there are no shiny new ones.

They have 64 767s that are less than ten years old, and half of those are only five years of age or so. That's a substantial amount. Many of their 757s are just as new, particularly the ex-Song aircraft.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
I imagine them getting more A321s and A330s to replace 757 and 767.

The A321s could not replace the 757s on the long thin international routes. A330-200s are too big for many of Delta's 767-300ER routes, let alone the 767-200ER routes. The only thing Delta has close to the A330-200s are the 767-400ERs, which are too new to replace. And many of the 757s are just as new as the 767s I mentioned above... They aren't being replaced any time soon.

Listen, you need to get over the idea that airlines will spend tens of billions of dollars to replace relatively new metal just so that you can have your perfect Airbus-only fleet. The world doesn't work that way.

[Edited 2006-11-27 20:24:06]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
FCKC
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:22 am

If they want these second hand A330s , not before 2008 , perhaps they could find a deal to get the Air Canada machines.In this case , it will be A330-300s.
 
osiris30
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
Listen, you need to get over the idea that airlines will spend tens of billions of dollars to replace relatively new metal just so that you can have your perfect Airbus-only fleet. The world doesn't work that way.

 checkmark  Coudln't have said it any better (or even that well) myself.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
hb88
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:45 am

This seems all interesting news, particularly in view of the possibility of more narrowbody orders - and also coming on the day when Airbus received its 600th order for the A330 - one of my most favourite aircraft.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):

Is DL now merging with UA???

Even with a spelling mistake, I'm sure you are more than intelligent enough to know I meant US.....

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):

The basic message is that DL is a candidate for the 787, but this is questioned because of the US Airways A350 order and their current A330 fleet. And they have that from the Seattle Post.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
However, DL doesn't have any Airbus, US does have quite a few.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
But US has 9 A333s and ordered 10 A332s and 20 A350s.

Tiny compared to Delta's Boeing widebody fleet.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):

Their business relationship with airbus is better than Delta's.

I was never arguing that a new Delta wouldn't do business with Airbus. I was arguing that it was silly to insinuate that a new Delta would only deal with Airbus. A new Delta would have a 75% Boeing fleet and Boeing as a major creditor. Do you seriously think they'd leave BCA in the cold? Forget that.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):

Listen, you need to get over the idea that airlines will spend tens of billions of dollars to replace relatively new metal just so that you can have your perfect Airbus-only fleet. The world doesn't work that way.

 checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
hb88
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 30):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
"Listen, you need to get over the idea that airlines will spend tens of billions of dollars to replace relatively new metal just so that you can have your perfect Airbus-only fleet. The world doesn't work that way."

checkmark Coudln't have said it any better (or even that well) myself.

You're quite right. But, I have heard this line of argument quite a few times in laudatory discussions of all-Boeing fleets.

Unless an Airbus-only or Boeing-only fleet makes sound business sense (which for all I know it might - if there are incentives to keep to a single manufacturers type - however that is manifested - threats, inducements, being forced to read Randys Blog for hours on end, etc etc...), the argument of an 'all anything' fleet is pretty specious.
 
2wingtips
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing extended it until December 1st (and may do so again if warranted).

They lost their 2010-2012 slots, however. Boeing extended the deadline for pricing purposes, but deliveries will now be from 2013/14. Miss a 787 deadline and miss 2-3 years available slots. Amazing!
 
mk777
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:51 am

Who's buying OS's 4 A332?? I am assuming LX is. If not, SU can get them from OS then.
come fly with me
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 34):
They lost their 2010-2012 slots, however. Boeing extended the deadline for pricing purposes, but deliveries will now be from 2013/14. Miss a 787 deadline and miss 2-3 years available slots. Amazing!

Fair enough. I tell you, if Boeing did half-as-well in selling during their production snafu as Airbus is during their's...

Airbus's management may be "screwed up", but their sales teams are still the best in the business, evidently.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
This A330 lease might be a way to allow that Boeing order to go through, while still maintaining leverage over the EU

The most accurate statement to date on any Russian / EU (EADS) interactions, IMO.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Carpethead
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:15 am

It's not the best option out on the market buy why not buy more Il-96s. At least they could support the Russian aerospace market.
 
jfk777
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:02 am

Alll those Canadian A333 with Rolls engines is my bet. With Air Canada going to 777/787 I would bet one airline will take most of the lot since they are all standardized that way.
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 39):
Alll those Canadian A333 with Rolls engines is my bet. With Air Canada going to 777/787 I would bet one airline will take most of the lot since they are all standardized that way.

The A330-300s are going to be the last Airbus widebodies to leave the fleet, aren't they?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
kaitak744
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:03 pm

Well, apparently, Air Canada didn't find a buyer for the A340-500s, and that is why they are keeping them. The 777s will be phasing out the A330-300s and A340-300s while the 787s phase out the 767s. Given that the 777s will be arriving before the 787s, I would assume the A330s / A340s would be first to go.
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:24 pm

My guess? Ex-EK. They are talking of rolling over their A330 fleet. Fingers crossed...
 
planemanofnz
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:03 pm

Any new destinations being thought of by SU for when they get the 330's? SIN maybe?
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:52 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
Tiny compared to Delta's Boeing widebody fleet.

What do they really have? 8 T7s and a lot of 767s, which are the smallest widebodies around.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
I was never arguing that a new Delta wouldn't do business with Airbus. I was arguing that it was silly to insinuate that a new Delta would only deal with Airbus. A new Delta would have a 75% Boeing fleet and Boeing as a major creditor. Do you seriously think they'd leave BCA in the cold? Forget that.

Did I say somewhere that they would do no business with Boeing anymore?

Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
They have 64 767s that are less than ten years old, and half of those are only five years of age or so. That's a substantial amount.

Which means that there are enough 767s older than ten years.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
A330-200s are too big for many of Delta's 767-300ER routes, let alone the 767-200ER routes. The only thing Delta has close to the A330-200s are the 767-400ERs, which are too new to replace. And many of the 757s are just as new as the 767s I mentioned above... They aren't being replaced any time soon.

A321 are good enough for all their domestic routes. A332s are good enough for their international routes. How useful is it to use these small 762s and 763s on trans-Atlantic flights? They might do for the beginning, but after a while you're better of with an A330, even with the same amount of pax, because it carriers way more cargo.


Quoting N328KF (Reply 28):
Listen, you need to get over the idea that airlines will spend tens of billions of dollars to replace relatively new metal just so that you can have your perfect Airbus-only fleet. The world doesn't work that way.

Did I say all-Airbus somewhere? We're only talking about some of the new purchases, especially widebodies. Don't be so nervous, Boeing will still sell some planes.
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 42):
Ex-EK. They are talking of rolling over their A330 fleet. Fingers crossed...

How exactly EK would "roll them over"? They are short on capacity and there is nothing they could get fast enough to replace them.
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 45):
How exactly EK would "roll them over"? They are short on capacity and there is nothing they could get fast enough to replace them.

EK announced a couple of weeks ago that they are considering replacing older A330s with new A330s. If they do then their discarded A330s would become available.
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 46):

EK announced a couple of weeks ago that they are considering replacing older A330s with new A330s. If they do then their discarded A330s would become available.

I thought of that, too. EK has 29 A332s. How many would they "roll over"? If they did, there would be more carriers than just SU standing in line to get some. However, SU might take some of the older A343s. Maybe EK rolls them over, too. (They would replace them with A333s, I suppose.)
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A33

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
What do they really have? 8 T7s and a lot of 767s, which are the smallest widebodies around.

They have eight 777s and two on order. The 777-200ERs are very new, and the 777-200LRs are for a niche that would not be appropriately filled by any Airbus product (DL will not order two A340-500s when they have 777s in place an on order.)

As for the 767s, they're still widebodies. Just because they're small widebodies doesn't mean they're any less significant. Airbus does not have a product in this niche.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Did I say somewhere that they would do no business with Boeing anymore?

When you suggested that DL go all-Airbus, you did. Don't skirt around this. We all know what you are trying to say.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Which means that there are enough 767s older than ten years.

Yes; And those airframes are all 767-200(ER)s or -300(ER)s, which are in a niche that Airbus cannot fill.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):

A321 are good enough for all their domestic routes. A332s are good enough for their international routes. How useful is it to use these small 762s and 763s on trans-Atlantic flights? They might do for the beginning, but after a while you're better of with an A330, even with the same amount of pax, because it carriers way more cargo.

The A321s cannot fill all of the routes that the 757s can. Plus many of the 757s are new! Why are you still suggesting replacing new airframes?

A330-200s are too big for many of DL's routes. You know what, forget about you: your bias is not allowing you to see the fact that many of the solutions that you suggest are not appropriate. You seem to think that airlines are one-size-fits-all, and you fail to recognize the fact that the holes in Airbus' product line happen to be in areas where DL has a lot of metal.

[Edited 2006-11-28 16:02:27]

[Edited 2006-11-28 16:03:05]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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RE: Aeroflot Now Is Considering 10 Second Hand A330s

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
They have eight 777s and two on order. The 777-200ERs are very new, and the 777-200LRs are for a niche that would not be appropriately filled by any Airbus product (DL will not order two A340-500s when they have 777s in place an on order.)

I never said they would cancel existing orders.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
As for the 767s, they're still widebodies. Just because they're small widebodies doesn't mean they're any less significant. Airbus does not have a product in this niche.

And what does Boeing have? Don't say the sgnificantly wider and longer 787. There are now new planes in that size, because they are not very profitable to operate.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
When you suggested that DL go all-Airbus, you did. Don't skirt around this. We all know what you are trying to say.

I never said that, read my post correctly.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
When an Airbus operator takes over an all-Boeing operator, this is actually a good chance for Airbus.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
Yes; And those airframes are all 767-200(ER)s or -300(ER)s, which are in a niche that Airbus cannot fill.

Again, fly A321s domestic and A332 international. Makes more money.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
The A321s cannot fill all of the routes that the 757s can. Plus many of the 757s are new! Why are you still suggesting replacing new airframes?

You would start with the oldest, obviously.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 48):
A330-200s are too big for many of DL's routes. You know what, forget about you: your bias is not allowing you to see the fact that many of the solutions that you suggest are not appropriate. You seem to think that airlines are one-size-fits-all, and you fail to recognize the fact that the holes in Airbus' product line happen to be in areas where DL has a lot of metal.

I wish I could just forget you, but I recently saw a docu on TV, about this spaceship, and every time its reg came into view, I had to think about - you and your anti-Airbus and pro-Boeing comments. I don't know what paranoia drives you, but I never suggested that DL replaces all its aircraft immediatly with Airbus planes. I only said that the takeover increases the chance of them ordering Airbus, when they buy new planes. A thought that comes originally from Boeing's local paper - and I wouldn't have written it without this dumb statement by your fellow cheerleader:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
Maybe they can get those A330's when US dumps theirs after they buy out DL and go for an "all-Boeing" widebody fleet..... stirthepot duck
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011