MSYtristar
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F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:33 am

It'll be nice to see F9 tap into the New England market again. I would have personally liked to see them at MHT or PVD (closer to the BOS area), but BDL will probably work well for them.

The New Englad market is just too big to ignore forever. Now, let the Gulf South expansion begin....just kidding.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:55 am

Congratulations to Hartford and Frontier. Good to see them starting to add some new cities again. Hopefullly there will be more to come.. Oh please let there be at least one more to come..  eyepopping 
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PVD757
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:08 am

wow - good for BDL. I can only hope PVD can get on the F9 radar screen...
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 2):
I can only hope PVD can get on the F9 radar screen...

How is the gate situation at PVD? That seems to be the biggest issue every time I've been there. They are all taken except A2 which is an equipment parking lot for US. The other end is so crowded all the time that there is no space to move.. What's the temporary remedy to the problem?
Aiming High and going far..
 
MaverickM11
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:13 am

When did they announce BDL? How did I miss that? And how are they going to survive with WN pricing and schedule?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
RL757PVD
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:13 am

Ive heard this was comming for a while now. i had even heard it was planned then pulled when WN announced DEN, so a little delayed.

The good thing is that BDL is not a BOS alternative and can possibly lead to other airports in New England getting the service since BDL is not convenient to BOS, nor do they compete with MHT or PVD.
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FATFlyer
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:14 am

Nice startup fares.

BDL to DEN at $99 ow. BDL to AUS $92 ow.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/frontier/specials/online-deals/intro-fares.do
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dolphinflyer
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:15 am

Good news for BDL, but just one flight per day? And an eastbound redeye at that? Well, I guess if you're the only nonstop game in town...
 
FATFlyer
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:18 am

Looks like only a single red eye right now.

Denver to Hartford
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
313 11:55 p.m. 5:35 a.m. Daily*

Hartford to Denver
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
314 7:35 a.m. 9:50 a.m. Daily*
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Bicoastal
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:18 am

Hmmm, a route United doesn't fly non-stop. We'll see if United suddenly discovers it.
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RL757PVD
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:20 am

Yuck, i just saw its a red-eye DEN-BDL. the outbound times are good, but short red-eyes (4 hrs) are not fun.

I was figuring theyd start with an evening turn. While good for a/c utilization, not great for attracting pax. With crappy times, i wonder if UA will bother to respond?
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
PVD757
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
How is the gate situation at PVD?

for a carrier like F9 - no problem at all since I HIGHLY doubt they will lease thier own gate. With all the capacity cutting by DL, AA, NW, and US - there are plenty of gates to share depending on the time of day...

FL or B6 would be tough to squeeze in right now without getting creative.
 
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 11):
FL or B6 would be tough to squeeze in right now without getting creative.

Well we know AA has no use for Gate 12 anymore!
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:37 am

Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
PVD757
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 12):
Well we know AA has no use for Gate 12 anymore!

they barely have use for gate 14 too!!

seriously though, I suppose I should be happy they are hare at all at this point...
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:42 am

Read this quote...

Frontier's service launch in Hartford marks the airline's return to New England. Until now, Hartford was the second largest unserved market from Denver, and the largest market from Denver to not have service in the last two years. Frontier previously provided service between Denver and Boston until 2002.

1 question.. What's the largest market without nonstop service?  angel  And when are they going to rectify THAT problem?
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MaverickM11
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 10):
Yuck, i just saw its a red-eye DEN-BDL. the outbound times are good, but short red-eyes (4 hrs) are not fun.

I wish them luck but yeesh, that's going to be an ugly uphill slog with that schedule and WN in the market. I bet it will be full though.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 2):
wow - good for BDL. I can only hope PVD can get on the F9 radar screen...

Does UA fly that route?
 
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 17):
Does UA fly that route?

Nope.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
1 question.. What's the largest market without nonstop service?

Um - BOS perhaps? I think that is what they mean.

I guess they're using the old Hollywood motto - screw me once, Massport, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

They're not giving Massport a chance to screw 'em twice.  Smile

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
yeesh, that's going to be an ugly uphill slog with that schedule and WN in the market.

Almost anywhere Frontier chooses would have Southwest in the market, or close. But - they've survived LAX-SFO and are adding some 80 seats to that next week.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
I bet it will be full though.

That would be good. So I'm not clear why it will be an ugly, uphill slog?

mariner
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richierich
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
1 question.. What's the largest market without nonstop service? And when are they going to rectify THAT problem?

That's an interesting question.
If they couldn't make BOS work for whatever reason, what makes them think that BDL is going to be any better?
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 17):
Does UA fly that route?

Not as of today but I suspect they'll be adding it to the spring schedule, too. It's a good market for them out of IAD and ORD, so I'm sure they'd do well on it from DEN.
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PVD757
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 20):
If they couldn't make BOS work for whatever reason, what makes them think that BDL is going to be any better?

BOS failed due to operational issues that Massport (reportedly) failed to even care about with respect to F9. Loads were good but costs to operate at BOS made the flights unprofitable especially with the longer stage length (fuel).
 
frntman
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:08 am

One of the things that seems to be lost in the BDL announcement is the fact that the BWI station will close effective Januray 8th. I know Frontier has their own employees there above wing. I hope they are able to find something in the Baltimore/DC area within F9.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
Um - BOS perhaps? I think that is what they mean.

BOS has nonstop service. It may not be on F9, but they do have nonstop so it can't be them..
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Frntman (Reply 23):
One of the things that seems to be lost in the BDL announcement is the fact that the BWI station will close effective Januray 8th.

Interesting. Looks like Southwest cleaned their clock on that route....Mariner set me straight if I'm wrong. I wonder, in addition to UA, if WN will announce DEN-BDL non-stop service?
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USPIT10L
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
1 question.. What's the largest market without nonstop service? And when are they going to rectify THAT problem?

Good question. When will F9 step up and provide RDU-DEN service? That's really the only major market not served nonstop from RDU.
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airbazar
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
They're not giving Massport a chance to screw 'em twice.

Or maybe they just can't compete with both UA and B6 on the same route.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
Looks like only a single red eye right now.

Denver to Hartford
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
313 11:55 p.m. 5:35 a.m. Daily*

Hartford to Denver
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
314 7:35 a.m. 9:50 a.m. Daily*

Looks pretty good for the skiing crowd and that's probably what they're going for by starting this route this time of the year.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 26):
That's really the only major market not served nonstop from RDU.

Sort of...

I think the order is BAY (SFO, OAK, SJC) then DEN then MCI, or something to that effect..
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A330300
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:43 am

As an employee, the shuttering of the BWI station seems to be of more concern. We go from 2x, to 1x, to none - is this erosion of our market share to WN and UA that we're seeing?
 
RL757PVD
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 25):
I wonder, in addition to UA, if WN will announce DEN-BDL non-stop service?

That i doubt, compared to other stations WN is not really big at BDL They have 22 flights now, shrinking down to 19 flights by the spring.

UA may do something though
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 25):
Mariner set me straight if I'm wrong. I wonder, in addition to UA, if WN will announce DEN-BDL non-stop service?

Two parts (i) Your theory would be that if Frontier starts it, United will?

That probably was true (DEN-CUN and the other resorts, eg), but I'm not sure it is true now.

The relationship between United and Frontier appears - stress "appears" - to have undergone a bit of a sea change since Southwest came to DEN - the A gates issue, United's tacit support for Frontier's LAX-SJD etc, and Ted is no longer the demon that some thought - as in DEN-MDW.

We should know soon enough. Frontier's new 4 x weekly DEN-GDL goes daily in June, even before the service starts. If your theory is correct, United should start the route.

But I'm not sure they will. DEN-MEX has never been thrilling for United (or even Mexicana?), and I think they might wonder if there is room on DEN-GDL for two?

(ii) As to Southwest starting DEN-BDL, I don't know - who knows what they have planned? But I don't think it would be high on their list.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
BOS has nonstop service.

That's true. I mis-read it, sorry.  

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 25):
Looks like Southwest cleaned their clock on that route

Southwest certainly didn't help, but BWI has been on borrowed time for a couple of years, long before Southwest. It did okay, but it was always a low-yielding route compared with, say, DCA.

They have taken a page from the Southwest playbook though (another one!). If you try to book DEN-BWI on the website, it will offer DEN-DCA.

mariner

[Edited 2006-11-28 20:19:57]
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boslax
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 20):
They're not giving Massport a chance to screw 'em twice.

Frontier operated in the old terminal A at BOS and needed to find another carrier to provide their under-the-wing service in the other terminals since A was being demolished to make room for the new Delta terminal. Frontier could not find a cost effective provider and since they only had one daily flight at the time, they decided to bail instead. Blame the other carriers at BOS, not Massport.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
But - they've survived LAX-SFO and are adding some 80 seats to that next week.

It's a little early to call it "surviving". At this point I'd say they haven't given up. The first two months weren't even 50% full.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
That would be good. So I'm not clear why it will be an ugly, uphill slog?

I think it's going to look a lot like BWI, but with less demand--incredibly full, but at very low fares, before WN was even in the picture. F9 went from two daily flights to one redeye the same month WN went from one to two daily flights, and hasn't changed since.
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AirEMS
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Now, let the Gulf South expansion begin....just kidding.

Seriously I would love to see F9 going to ILM!! I would love to see a non stop there from Denver.

-Carl
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
It's a little early to call it "surviving". At this point I'd say they haven't given up. The first two months weren't even 50% full.

I'd say adding seats is not exacty dying. We used to give airlines a year to make a dent in a new route. I guess those days have gone.

But - 50%? That's good. I had heard a lower figure for those first two months. I'd also heard that the BELF is not high on that route. All anecdotal, of course.  

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
F9 went from two daily flights to one redeye the same month WN went from one to two daily flights, and hasn't changed since.

As noted above (?) BWI has always been an odd one for Frontier. It went from 1 x daily to 2 x daily to 1 x daily and back to 2 x daily long before Southwest was in the picture.

They appear to be consolidating that area into the higher yielding DCA. I'm not sure how that is a bad thing?

I note AMR is dropping two key routes from BOS, one to MCO, just as we are coming into season. Perhaps Airtran or Jetblue (or even Southwest from MHT?) is cleaning their clock too?

Or is it simple consolidation - playing to the strengths? I dunno.

mariner

[Edited 2006-11-28 20:58:16]
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walter747
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 11):
for a carrier like F9 - no problem at all since I HIGHLY doubt they will lease thier own gate. With all the capacity cutting by DL, AA, NW, and US - there are plenty of gates to share depending on the time of day...

FL or B6 would be tough to squeeze in right now without getting creative.

AA uses gate 12 wat 3 times day day and DL has 3 gates never all being used at once and NW has two they barley use. Spirit gate wow they use it what two times a day. Theres plenty of room.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 12):

Well we know AA has no use for Gate 12 anymore!

 checkmark  they might as well buy a bus and park the ERJ on hardstand and make sensible use of that gate.  Smile
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
And when are they going to rectify THAT problem?

Here's a little tid-bit for you - it seems you are not alone with your wish:

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news...story?coll=hc-headlines-local-wire

"Customers in Colorado have asked for new nonstop service between Denver and Hartford for years, second in demand only to their requests for an uninterrupted link to Raleigh-Durham, N.C., Van Leuven said."

Maybe it depends on any possible deal they can get from RDU?

 Smile

mariner
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flyibaby
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:10 am

Mariner

You are obviously the F9 guru on here, so I ask a question. Why don't they try and gain more marketshare in Alaska. Yes I know they already fly to ANC, and FAI from DEN, but it just seems like such a cash cow up there due to the fact that AS is the only carrier in most markets. I'm not even referring to the routes that AS just sends their 737 combis to. A prime example would be flying the fishermen to Dutch Harbor and then the fish back as cargo. Obviously that example would be seasonal, but others come to mind. Why are they being sooo conservative in cases like this, but then turning around and trying to offer what equates to a shuttle route within California that is really already saturated. I know they are basically a good airline, I just don't understand the logic. The Mexico expanison made sense, the Airtran marketing agreement almost makes sense- a codeshare would make more sense-but say la vie.
Do you understand where I am coming from?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:51 am

DEN-BWI always had STRONG booking when I was with the airline. Honestly, closing BWI shocks me. It's too bad that WN entered the market. It's always sad to see an airline that offers a high quality product such as F9 lose out to an airline that offers a mediocre product.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 38):
I just don't understand the logic.

I have no "inside information" (or if I did, I wouldn't use it), but, to try and answer your questions:

It is a very small airline, and the bigger airlines (and some a.netters)sometimes see it as easy prey. United was supposed to kill 'em at DEN, then 9/11, then TED was to finish the job, and when that didn't happen, a year ago Southwest at DEN was supposed to be the end of them. Or the price of oil. Or both.

They are still there, but, in the face of all that, they can't do everything. Alaska is certainly a lucrative market (although they don't fly to FAI), but rich Alaska (the airline) would go nuclear if Frontier tried to muscle in on Alaska (the state) too much.

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 38):
Why are they being sooo conservative in cases like this, but then turning around and trying to offer what equates to a shuttle route within California that is really already saturated.

It is a conservative management, fighting a lot of Goliaths. As to LAX-SFO, I see it as an essential building block in a much larger strategy. They obviously have plans beyond that (as in SFO-LAS), but I don't know how far those plans will go.

DEN-GDL, as an example, was a gamble. DEN-MEX is a problematic route for other airlines, so it is pleasing to see that DEN-GDL seems to be doing well. Or - going to do well. It suggests that there is more to Mexico for Frontier than just the vacation resort crowd.

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 38):
the Airtran marketing agreement almost makes sense- a codeshare would make more sense

A codeshare might not make more sense - at this stage. It is, essentially, a FF program, and the CEO says they get a lot of the value of a codeshare for very little of the cost.

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 38):
Do you understand where I am coming from?

I think so, but I am not sure what more you want. I just lie back and enjoy the ride, the ups and the downs. They constantly take me by surprise - Mexico did, ANC did, SFO-LAX did, today's announcement did (ending BWI was no surprise, though). And if they do restore the old PSA Midnight Flyer, as the CEO has hinted, that could be real good fun.

For me, the book of Frontier is still being written. They are on the cusp of one of the most interesting phases of their history - the regional Q400 flying, the expansion of Jet Express (but who?) and the True West/Mexico plans.

And we know, because they have said so, that Costa Rica may be in the cards. If so, can Belize be far behind? I don't know, but, whatever it is, I know it won't be dull.

 Smile

mariner
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CALMSP
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:03 am

wow, i'm not to gung-ho or confident on the red-eye. what time is the last major bank into DEN for F9???
 
Bicoastal
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
And we know, because they have said so, that Costa Rica may be in the cards. If so, can Belize be far behind? I don't know, but, whatever it is, I know it won't be dull.

Either a friendly or hostile take over by United?? With Southwest now in Denver, the government can't argue that there isn't low cost competition to block the takeover.
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 42):
Either a friendly or hostile take over by United??

I don't think so. I think Frontier is much too useful to United - at DEN - as a separate company.

Or even - not just at DEN. If Virgin America does start up and at SFO, the relatioship - whatever it is or may be - between United and Frontier becomes really interesting.

Or complex. Or confusing. Or something.

Perhaps.  Smile

mariner
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MAH4546
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 9):
Hmmm, a route United doesn't fly non-stop. We'll see if United suddenly discovers it.

They flew the route for a while in the late 1990s/early 2000s.
a.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 41):
wow, i'm not to gung-ho or confident on the red-eye.

I tend not to waste energy getting gung-ho or otherwise about things that have not - yet - happened.

But the CEO used to work for PSA when the Midnight Flyer was operating, so maybe, just maybe, he knows a tad more about it than I do.

Or maybe the CEO is just a naughty tease.  Smile

mariner
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SANFan
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:56 am

Regarding the red-eye timing of the new BDL flight, a couple of things I noticed on F9 sked's: 1) although F9 does hardly any e/b red-eyes, one of 2 they do now operate is a BWI flight, and 2) ironically, the BDL flight will op at almost exactly the same times as that very same "gone-after-Jan-8" Baltimore flight.

Sounds to me like a simple case of easy substitution (with a 2-month lag for some major mx perhaps, at an appropriate time of year...) In other words, no new a/c needed to provide BDL service; in fact, no adjustments needed to any other existing F9 flights. Nice, smooth transition, Frontier.

I would also expect that at the next major sked rework by F9 -- probably April -- the BDL flight will be re-timed and the e/b red-eye will be replaced with a daylight r/t!

Happy Holidays to All.

bb
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:57 am

Usually the DEN red eyes have been flown seasonally, so I would expect BDL to see a more traditional departure time...maybe in the 10:00am bank...within a few months.
 
HVNandrew
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 17):
Does UA fly that route?

No, UA dropped their DEN-BDL route pre-9/11.

Well, even though that return flight isn't ideal, any new service is good for BDL, considering BDL's biggest carrier has been dropping capacity and routes left and right for a year.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: F9's New DEN-BDL Route

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
I guess they're using the old Hollywood motto - screw me once, Massport, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

Yes, as was said earlier I ddon't think it was Massport that caused Frontier to leave Boston. But God only knows that Massport causes grief in the name of the almighty dollar.
Besides, you're not going to 'screw' Massport by going to Hartford. You'd certainly do it by going to MHT or PVD, which eventually I think they'll do. Rational, sensible growth is what airlines are all about these days. It is pretty unrealistic to think a carrier would come to BDL and not eventually come to the Boston market in the same way that Southwest did. But even at PVD and MHT, gates are tough to come by from 10pm until around 8am or 9am. If Frontier wants to skirt those hours, fine. But it's not operationally realistic that they'd want to. Everyone want in at night and out early the next morning.

Chris in NH

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