FA4B6
Topic Author
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:50 am

"Porter Airlines, whose flights from Toronto's downtown airport to Ottawa and, next month, to Montreal have sparked a holiday fare war, is "looking closely" at adding New York city as its third destination early in the new year, chief executive Robert Deluce said."

Full story at: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/f...8db-4aff-8845-c90df0325142&k=77732

(sorry if already posted, I couldn't find it if it was)
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
FA4B6
Topic Author
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:52 am

IMHO, I think YTZ-LGA or EWR would be a great idea. YTZ is extremely convenient. Too bad it doesnt have US Pre-Clearance like YYZ.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 1):
Too bad it doesnt have US Pre-Clearance like YYZ.

Does it have Canada Customs? I would imagine so given the amount of trans-border GA traffic, but would that be large enough to sustain 70 seats? Further, LGA's FIS is almost certainly not large enough to handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Further, LGA's FIS is almost certainly not large enough to handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared.

I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period. So YTZ-LGA is out of the question.
a.
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:19 am

I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway. If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway.

MDW has a full Customs/FIS facility and receives a variety of scheduled international flights.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.

they couls also use JFK...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period. So YTZ-LGA is out of the question

Technically, it has to be able to in order to recieve pre-cleared flights. LGA does have an FIS, it just happens to be too small for more than a private plane. If something did happen, they could do a full federal inspection, they would just do it very slowly.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 4):
I would imagine they are planning pre-clearance at YTZ considering they are looking at flights to LaGuardia and Midway. If they don't get pre-clearance they would be forced to use EWR and ORD.

MDW's FIS is big enough to handle a full 753.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13200
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:53 am

The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.

The most recent transborder service was CommutAir/US Airways Express in 1998 on a HPN-SYR-YTZ routing.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:31 am

I think that only YTZ-EWR as viable. It would have to arrive at the EWR's Terminal B as it is equipt with the Customes/FIS facility. I don't think that the Yanks would want to open another PFI facility in Canada this soon after the opening of the facility at YHZ. In order to increase the viability of the service Porter could get CO to codeshare on the flight.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
challiday
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:54 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
I'm pretty sure that LaGuardia cannot handle a flight that isn't pre-cleared, period.

You'd be correct, YHZ Only just got a flight to LGA with AE thanks to the new pre-clearance area just opened at YHZ.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:10 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The was an airline (I forget the name) operating as Continental Connection in the late 1980s-1990s flying DH-7s EWR-Toronto Island-Ottawa.

City Express.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13200
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 6):
they couls also use JFK...

This route would cater to business travelers, JFK is not a very popular airport for business travelers which is why there is such paltry service from JFK to major business centers such as Toronto, Chicago etc compared to EWR or LGA.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 10):
In order to increase the viability of the service Porter could get CO to codeshare on the flight.

But with several YYZ-EWR flights daily, I doubt CO would want to fragment their own market.

While Porter will eventually be serving all their 'future' destinations, but as an armchair network planner, I think YQG is the best choice as their third city. A single (their 5th overall) aircraft would give them 5 roundtrips a day on YQG-YTZ. YQG would also give them access to 30,000 potential connecting onward pax to YOW and YUL. Since both YOW and YUL have multiple daily flights to NYC, Porter can expect to attract very few YOW/YUL-NYC O&D pax.

Given Jazz is the only game in town for YQGers, there is a lot less competition there than at EWR. But, like I said eventually, Porter will be serving all of these cities.

[Edited 2006-11-29 18:42:05]
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 5):
MDW has a full Customs/FIS facility and receives a variety of scheduled international flights.

I stand corrected. I had thought MDW was solely domestic but forgot about sun destination international flights.
 
fly2yyz
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:45 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 15):

I stand corrected. I had thought MDW was solely domestic but forgot about sun destination international flights.

Not forgetting to mention that C6, had a short run of flying to MDW from YYZ.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 16):
Not forgetting to mention that C6, had a short run of flying to MDW from YYZ.

Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.
 
fly2yyz
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:45 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):

Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.

It didn't at all! I remember only 4 or 5 passengers coming off the flight! Was incredible to see how MDW couldnt support the service, then again there wasn't much promotion.
 
cs03
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:56 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:53 am

In November 1991, I flew EWR/YTZ/EWR on Air Ontario. Aircraft was DH8-300.
 
multimark
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 14):
...Given Jazz is the only game in town for YQGers, there is a lot less competition there than at EWR. But, like I said eventually, Porter will be serving all of these cities.

You're making the assumption that Porter will be around long enough to add service to all of those cities. Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 20):
Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.

Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

Porter's discounts are for the Christmas-New Year's holdiay period when biz pax (PD's bread & butter) disappear for 3 weeks. Porter will still be maintaining 5 YOW-YTZ daily roundtrips over this period. Compare this to AC who for the past couple of years when they were still operating at YTZ stopped all operations outright over Christmas.

Porter's $69 one-way discounts are only matching WS & AC. It's not like they're selling $1 transcontinental fares like some bankrupt lime-green smiley-faced airline used to do.

I would hardly call the below fares for tomorrow's flights deeply-discounted.

Departing Flight
Ottawa (YOW) to Toronto (YTZ)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
246 07:00 08:00 $142 $332 $383
248 08:30 09:30 $99 $172 $252
250 10:00 11:00 $99 $172 $252
252 11:30 12:30 $99 $172 $252
254 13:00 14:00 $99 $172 $252
256 14:30 15:30 $142 $172 $252
258 16:00 17:00 $152 $248 $328
260 17:30 18:30 $152 $332 $383
262 19:00 20:00 $99 $172 $252
264 20:30 21:30 $99 $172 $252

Previous Day Next DayReturn Flight
Toronto (YTZ) to Ottawa (YOW)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
245 07:00 07:56 $99 $172 $252
247 08:30 09:26 $99 $172 $252
249 10:00 10:56 $99 $172 $252
251 11:30 12:26 $142 $172 $252
253 13:00 13:56 $142 $172 $252
255 14:30 15:26 $152 $234 $314
257 16:00 16:56 $152 $332 $383
259 17:30 18:26 $142 $332 $383
261 19:00 19:56 $152 $332 $383
263 20:30 21:26 $99 $172 $252
 
multimark
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting YOW (Reply 21):
Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

Yes, we've heard that before. But it doesn't take long to burn through a lot of capital in the airline industry. Porter has been offering various promotional fares since day 1.
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 22):

Yes, we've heard that before. But it doesn't take long to burn through a lot of capital in the airline industry.

Not to mention the number of diversions to YYZ are very high. In the fall and winter there are many days with low ceilings slightly below minimums at YTZ plus fog off the water. For the past month almost every week they have had a day or two full of YYZ diversions. If the same passenger gets diverted more than once in a 6 month period they will be hard customers to get back. Why book to fly from YTZ if it ends up late out of YYZ frequently. Porter can't land on contaminated runways at YTZ either so any days hovering around -7C to 0C with precipitation might cause delays as well. They should have started operations in the spring when the airport has fewer weather issues to build up loyalty and they really need to push Transport Canada for a better ILS to afford lower minimums.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 14):
I think YQG is the best choice as their third city.

I disagree. How many business people in YQG need to be downtown Toronto? Or vice-versa. Not many I think. Air Ontario tried YTZ-YQG and it did not last.

Quoting Yow (Reply 17):
Don't forget that during C6's brief appearance at MDW, they would have used pre-clearance at YYZ. That 2000 YYZ departure 1x/day didn't make much sense.

C6 started with 2x daily YYZ-MDW, then reduced to 1x daily. Initially this departure was late afternoon, then 2000.

Quoting Cs03 (Reply 19):
I flew EWR/YTZ/EWR on Air Ontario. Aircraft was DH8-300.

Sure it was a -300? I don't recall GX flying the -300 into YTZ. Anyway, their network then was YTZ-YOW/YUL/EWR.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 20):
You're making the assumption that Porter will be around long enough to add service to all of those cities. Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.

Their load factors, by all anecdotal accounts, are dismal. Despite the discounting. Suggests strongly that the Q400 was the wrong aircraft.

Quoting Yow (Reply 21):
Porter is one of the best capitalized start-ups ever. They very well may only be second to JetBlue.

They still need to generate operating profits.

Quoting Yow (Reply 21):
Porter's discounts are for the Christmas-New Year's holdiay period when biz pax (PD's bread & butter) disappear for 3 weeks. Porter will still be maintaining 5 YOW-YTZ daily roundtrips over this period.

The Q400 rents will not decline during this xmas period.

Porter should be working like crazy to bring on more corporate clients for YOW/YUL. Does not seem like they're having much success to date.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sebring
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting YOW" class=quote target=_blank>YOW (Reply 21):
Departing Flight
Ottawa (YOW) to Toronto (YTZ)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
246 07:00 08:00 $142 $332 $383
248 08:30 09:30 $99 $172 $252
250 10:00 11:00 $99 $172 $252
252 11:30 12:30 $99 $172 $252
254 13:00 14:00 $99 $172 $252
256 14:30 15:30 $142 $172 $252
258 16:00 17:00 $152 $248 $328
260 17:30 18:30 $152 $332 $383
262 19:00 20:00 $99 $172 $252
264 20:30 21:30 $99 $172 $252

Previous Day Next DayReturn Flight
Toronto (YTZ) to Ottawa (YOW)
Friday, Dec 01, 2006
Flight# Depart Arrive Firm Flexible Freedom
245 07:00 07:56 $99 $172 $252
247 08:30 09:26 $99 $172 $252
249 10:00 10:56 $99 $172 $252
251 11:30 12:26 $142 $172 $252
253 13:00 13:56 $142 $172 $252
255 14:30 15:26 $152 $234 $314
257 16:00 16:56 $152 $332 $383
259 17:30 18:26 $142 $332 $383
261 19:00 19:56 $152 $332 $383
263 20:30 21:26 $99 $172 $252

But buy in advance and the fare falls to $68 each way, and if you use the promo code FAMI, it falls to $34 each way until after the Christmas-New Year's break.
 
Salomon
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:18 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Multimark (Reply 20):
You're making the assumption that Porter will be around long enough to add service to all of those cities. Given the amount of discounting they are doing, one has to wonder.

According to a frequent flyer from another forum, the FA told him that the breakeven was 23 passengers per flight (70 seats). She (the FA) also said that they had exceeded their 6 month load targets.

I agree that the source isnt the most reliable but I still wanted to let you know...
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
dc10srule
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:36 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
Their load factors, by all anecdotal accounts, are dismal. Despite the discounting. Suggests strongly that the Q400 was the wrong aircraft.

What other aircraft would offer 70 seater potential revenues with 37 seater operating costs? I don't think Porter would be saving much if they decided on a Q300 or Q200. IMHO, the issue here is more lack of customers than wrong aircraft.
Giggity-Giggity..!
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 27):
IMHO, the issue here is more lack of customers than wrong aircraft.

Well the Ottawa-Toronto route's O&D is about 900,000 or around 2,450 per day and probably more like 2,500-3,000 on weekdays. If Porter can grab market share from not only WS & AC, but also from VIA, they'll be doing fine once they start generating some connecting traffic.

Same goes for Montreal-Toronto with +1.5 million in O&D traffic or 4,100 per day and again more like 4,500-5,000 on weekdays.
 
kiramakora
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:00 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:47 am

Question: what flights from Canada do not pre-clear US Customs in the land of the Cannucks? I remember Halifax. Any other examples?

Thanks and good luck to Porter. Competition is never a bad thing.
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 29):
Question: what flights from Canada do not pre-clear US Customs in the land of the Cannucks? I remember Halifax. Any other examples?

Pretty much any airport which does not have US Customs Pre-Clearance. YHZ now has pre-clearance. Canadian airports with daily year-round Transborder service, but which do not have US pre-clearance include: YYT, YQM, YFC, YQB, YKF, YXU, YQT, YQR, YXE, YLW and YYJ. YTZ will at some point be added to this list.

YKA, Dawson City Yukon, YHM and YYG have seasonal transborder services and soon YSB and YSJ will be added to this list.
 
kiramakora
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:00 am

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting YOW (Reply 30):
Pretty much any airport which does not have US Customs Pre-Clearance. YHZ now has pre-clearance. Canadian airports with daily year-round Transborder service, but which do not have US pre-clearance include: YYT, YQM, YFC, YQB, YKF, YXU, YQT, YQR, YXE, YLW and YYJ. YTZ will at some point be added to this list.

YKA, Dawson City Yukon, YHM and YYG have seasonal transborder services and soon YSB and YSJ will be added to this list.

Thank you for this.
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 29):
Question: what flights from Canada do not pre-clear US Customs



Quoting YOW (Reply 30):
Pretty much any airport which does not have US Customs Pre-Clearance.

Did you figure that out all by yourself, or did you have help?  Smile
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: FlyPorter Wants To Add YTZ-LGA/EWR

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 32):
Did you figure that out all by yourself, or did you have help?

Did it off the top of my head. Did I miss anything?  Wink

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A97, AC853, AirCanada787, airplanedaj, BatonOps, georgiabill, golfradio, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], jetmatt777, LeCoqFrancais, legacyins, OldAeroGuy, picarus, Raventech, ssteve, tareias128, thomasphoto60, TW870 and 241 guests