KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2634
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:05 am

Courtesy: Minneapolis/St Paul Business Journal

NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/061128/1382442.html?.v=1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtesy: CNN

Northwest Fights Right To Strike

http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/28/news....reut/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtesy: WCCO-TV

NWA: 'Good Business' Means Peace With Attendants

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_332164443.html

[Edited 2006-11-28 23:07:09]

[Edited 2006-11-28 23:13:30]
 
mspguy
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:49 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:00 am

I like how the one judge pointed out that a strike wouldn't be in the public interest!!!!!

If you want a good paying job, get an education. You don't need a college degree to serve food, drinks, and help people out of a plane!!!!
If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
I like how the one judge pointed out that a strike wouldn't be in the public interest!!!!!

When does a strike help the public interest.

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
If you want a good paying job, get an education. You don't need a college degree to serve food, drinks, and help people out of a plane!!!!

I have a college degree. Money isn't the underlying issue, it's about us keeping the dignity in our jobs within our jobs. You're sounding very John Kerry-ish.
Made from jets!
 
Squid
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:21 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:44 pm

Well here they go again. Why don't the flight attendants just give up and shut up. If you don't like the terms and pay that your airlines is offering, then move along.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13438
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
a strike wouldn't be in the public interest!!!!!

And that's precisely what part of the RLA is based on - it's the business equivalent of mutually assured destruction, and that's what keeps both sides negotiating in good faith.

When one side - in this case NW management - believes the other side doesn't have the ability to inflict harm, there is no reason to negotiate.

I'm not a big fan of organized labor, but judges have spent the better part of the last 4 years rendering the Railway Labor Act meaningless.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:58 pm

Yes go on strike and totally end a career that you have had for ever......makes sense to me.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:24 pm

Well here they go again. Why don't the flight attendants just give up and shut up. If you don't like the terms and pay that your airlines is offering, then move along.
****

This is where this dispute becomes sticky. The company did offer them terms, agreed to them, and signed a contract stating so. Now the company has thrown out the contract, and imposed fairly heavy wage cuts on the flight attendants.

1) Are you suggesting that NW should be able to just change the contract at will without agreement with the flight attendants ?

2) The judge in this case felt it was not in the publics interest to have the Flight attendants strike, so he blocked it. I feel he should have blocked both the right to strike, but also the wage cuts until both sides can reach an agreement. It seems odd to allow NW to break the contract, impose wage cuts, but not allow the flight attendants to do anything about it

3) Don't get me wrong here, I believe that the flight attendant wages were unsustainable, but a contract is a contract. If you need to change it, then it is something that needs to be agreed upon by both parties. For NW to say that they will go out of business if the wage structure doesn't change is NW's problem, they agreed to this contract, and should live by it, not just cry foul when it no longer suits them.
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:20 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting Squid (Reply 3):
Well here they go again. Why don't the flight attendants just give up and shut up. If you don't like the terms and pay that your airlines is offering, then move along.

Man I am really getting sick of your "if you don't like it move along" crap. You are in your 20's and haven't even started paying your dues in the workplace..Easy for you to just say "move along" alot of the people in the nwa fight have more working time than you have on this earth pal. I could explain it to you in detail but you will never understand the concept of seniority and having to start over. I did it and feel damn lucky (hence the name) to work for an outstanding company but that does not mean that I don't have a chapped ass for all I have lost in the 17 yrs I worked for nwa..
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
If you want a good paying job, get an education. You don't need a college degree to serve food, drinks, and help people out of a plane!!!!

What a crappy attitude.

The job is much more than that. We are the faces of a company in the people business.

Running an airline is like a gigantic show..an illusion...behind those doors in the terminal is absolute chaos going on most of the time. The "art" in running an airline is being able to "never let them see you (or the company) sweat".

So in a sense, we're performers as well as safety personnel. And the fact that I have a brain and an education to go with it, and speak 5 languages all needed by the company, i' think i'm worth more than $10 an hour. I mean, I just retired a few months ago because i couldn't take the maddness anymore.

It's attitudes like yours that make those of us who have to deal with you dislike serving you. The vast majority of customers are just fine. The 2% factor of poeple like you can make our lives pretty unpleasant.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:20 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
And that's precisely what part of the RLA is based on - it's the business equivalent of mutually assured destruction, and that's what keeps both sides negotiating in good faith.

Yeah the problem is that the RLA is abused by the airlines against labor. The NMB allows the airlines to drag out contracts in good economic times years after the amendable date. Case in point was the AMFA contract at NWA. We had a virtual wage freeze from 1993 to 2001 under the iam when the airlines were making record profits. Then Amfa comes in and we fought for and got a 30 percent increase in salary and it was lambasted by the flying public with phrases like "mechanics won the lottery" but think about it the rest of the working world was averaging 3 to 5 percent per year raises while we didn't get any for 8 yrs. Even with what was perceived to be an outlandish raise adjusted over 8 yrs it falls in the middle of average working America except that average America had the money up front to invest or whatever. Only people who work in this industry will ever understand it.
 
Squid
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:21 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:34 pm

I think it is great that a flight attendant can speak whatever language is needed for the airline but that doesn't mean the companys should bow down to their employee's. The company should be free to offer what they see as fair compensation for the job and if a flight attendant with the ability to speak five languages doesn't think the wage the company is offering is fair than they should leave and find work for a company that see's them as an asset and pays them accordingly. In America, union's should be illegal. The way I was brought up, they were not only sinful, but anti-American. If NWA want's to lower the payscale and benifit's so low, then they will get what they pay for. If NWA doesn't like the quality of the people who are serving and interacting with their customers, then they will raise the wages and "clean house" to bring in better people. But because of the union's thinking which is "we will all be treated fairly no matter who does a better job-all for one, one for all" mentality, it prevents global airlines like NWA from hiring Japanise and Chinese speakers, inforcing a weight and appearance scale, paying people with more useful skills like language, and the ability to position those people on flights as the company see's fit. If an interested candidate can speak languages that the airline need's and "looks the part, i.e. slim,pretty, and wears make-up, the company should have the ability to offer that person highr pay and the ability to bid for flights where those language skills and her/his attractive immage whould offer the company a competative advantage to their competitors. But instead, because of the unions, they will start on reserve, possibly in MEM, flying reserve and DC-9's for the next 20 years. What good is it to have a gorgious, friendly flight attendant with the ability to serve flawlessly in business class and speak Japanise or Chinese to their highest paying customers flying OMA and FSD turns? But because of the unions un-wavering fight, NWA must now find people to hire while only offering about $16,000 per year starting. Now $16,000 starting might be fine for a good majority of their new FA's because NWA will need those new people to fly FSD and OMA turns, but they also need to get with the program on the international side. NWA is facing stiffer competiton by the year from companies like JAL and Cathy. The kind of people NWA really needs and really wants would demand more of a wage like $35,000/ year +.

Just my opinion.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
Yes go on strike and totally end a career that you have had for ever......makes sense to me.

It's not about that, it's about using leverage to bring the company to the negotiating table.The company drags out negotiations behind the bankruptcy courts until they feel they've outlasted the us. If we bring the company to a halt, than that's a consequence

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 7):
Man I am really getting sick of your "if you don't like it move along" crap. You are in your 20's and haven't even started paying your dues in the workplace

Yeah, well when he's having to earn a living, and make ends meet, he'll see things differently

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 7):
Easy for you to just say "move along" alot of the people in the nwa fight have more working time than you have on this earth pal. I could explain it to you in detail but you will never understand the concept of seniority and having to start over. I did it and feel damn lucky (hence the name) to work for an outstanding company but that does not mean that I don't have a chapped ass for all I have lost in the 17 yrs I worked for nwa..

Yes, it's preserving a certain respectability in our professions. Part of it is keeping wages high enough to attract a better type of person.
Made from jets!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 11):
It's not about that, it's about using leverage to bring the company to the negotiating table.The company drags out negotiations behind the bankruptcy courts until they feel they've outlasted the us. If we bring the company to a halt, than that's a consequence

Ahhh new tactics, much like what the air traffic controllers did in 81! See, that is my problem, we just bring the company to a halt attitude really does suck, really does! Yes, flight attendants pay is for sure horrid and should be not as it is, but when you mention "bring the company to a halt", sure puts a sour note my desire to listen to the causes of the lengthy negotiations and makes me wonder what your next career is going to be!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
MiCorazonAzul
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
If you want a good paying job, get an education.

It's not a pay issue but it's about integrity.

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
You don't need a college degree to serve food, drinks, and help people out of a plane!!!!

You are correct yet in the event of an emergency, who are you going to turn to? All the training we go through is for a reason. Getting hired as a F/A for a major is not easy let alone the training. Don't try to make it seem like it's a nothing job because it isn't. For many of us, it is a CAREER.

Quoting Squid (Reply 3):
Well here they go again. Why don't the flight attendants just give up and shut up. If you don't like the terms and pay that your airlines is offering, then move along.

RIIIGGHHHTTTT...tell that to a senior flight attendant with lots of years in the company. Sure they can go to another airline but start at the BOTTOM of the seniority list. We all know that seniority is EVERYTHING in the biz. Also, what about company pride? Some of these people might genuinely love their airline just not what management is doing to them. In other words, in NOT that easy.
Live for Today.....tomorrow is NOT guaranteed.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13827
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 6):
For NW to say that they will go out of business if the wage structure doesn't change is NW's problem, they agreed to this contract, and should live by it, not just cry foul when it no longer suits them.

That's how things normally work, but since NW is in bankruptcy, indeed they can just throw out the contract, with the judge's approval.

A bankrupt company is a failed company! The fact that NW FAs even have jobs now is solely due to the bankruptcy process. If the judge thought it was in the best interest of the creditors for the company to fold up and sell off all its property, that is what would have happened, and it may yet happen.

Leagally speaking, NW FAs signed a contract with a company that failed, not the one that hopes to emerge from bankruptcy. The investors will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar after all is said and done. The FAs had to realize they were working for a company with major issues, and now unfortunately the spam has hit the fan, and everyone is covered in it.

So, no, it's not NW's problem. Everyone involved in a corporation (employees, management, executives, directors, investors) is taking a risk. It's just plain old capitalism at work. NW promised things it could not deliver. It's pretty clear to me the FAs could and should have seen something like this happening. To now say the company should just make things right by them is very, very naive. If such ignorance of how capitalism works wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
mspguy
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:49 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
It's attitudes like yours that make those of us who have to deal with you dislike serving you. The vast majority of customers are just fine. The 2% factor of poeple like you can make our lives pretty unpleasant.

Actually when I fly I'm very low maintenance, I'll either read, sleep, or stare out the window. I always have correct change for anything I buy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like what's happening to them. But on the other hand the job market has changed for the industry as a whole. It's something I've faced in my career choice, fortunately I've found a good company. I've seen members of my family being in a field for 20+ years, only to have to start over.

I just don't think striking is the answer. In theory they could collapse the company. Then no one would have a job and would have to start over. To me that's selfish on their behalf.

just my
 twocents 
If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Lucky42 (Reply 7):
concept of seniority

Hold it! Not to drift off the topic but you are out of touch like a union in
TODAYS world. Seniority is not the buzz word. It's MERIT. That's what is
going on between unions and management today. Seniority is going the way
of the DC 6....out to pasture.

now back to the topic....
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 6):
The company did offer them terms, agreed to them, and signed a contract stating so. Now the company has thrown out the contract, and imposed fairly heavy wage cuts on the flight attendants.

Wasn't the FA contract up? I thought they were negotiating for a contract that had expired, so they didn't throw out a contract, they negotiated a new one and imposed it..

Nitpicky I know..
 
Indy
Posts: 3938
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
Ahhh new tactics, much like what the air traffic controllers did in 81! See, that is my problem, we just bring the company to a halt attitude really does suck, really does! Yes, flight attendants pay is for sure horrid and should be not as it is, but when you mention "bring the company to a halt", sure puts a sour note my desire to listen to the causes of the lengthy negotiations and makes me wonder what your next career is going to be!

When a company uses bankruptcy to negotiate terms of a new contract in bad faith while using the courts to protect the pay of executives I think the FAs have every right in the world to walk. When management acts they way they do I think they should be held accountable. There is a contract to provide labor to the airline. If negotiations are failing for an extended period of time there is no obligation of the labor supplier to continue to provide labor. Those represented in the labor contract have a right to walk away until the company comes to them to offer a better deal. The contract was voided. They are free to discontinue providing services.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 15):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
It's attitudes like yours that make those of us who have to deal with you dislike serving you. The vast majority of customers are just fine. The 2% factor of poeple like you can make our lives pretty unpleasant.

Actually when I fly I'm very low maintenance,

Uh huh.

It's the ones who don't realize what jerks they are who are the biggest jerks of all.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
When a company uses bankruptcy to negotiate terms of a new contract in bad faith while using the courts to protect the pay of executives

As was pointed out to you before, the court is not protecting the executives pay, only their separation payment if they lose their job.

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
They are free to discontinue providing services.

That is right, and the company is free to not take them back.
 
Indy
Posts: 3938
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 20):
That is right, and the company is free to not take them back.

That is correct. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13827
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
When a company uses bankruptcy to negotiate terms of a new contract in bad faith while using the courts to protect the pay of executives I think the FAs have every right in the world to walk.

They do have every right in the world to walk: it's called resignation.

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
They are free to discontinue providing services.

I think the judge disagrees with you.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 6):
1) Are you suggesting that NW should be able to just change the contract at will without agreement with the flight attendants ?

Yes, in bankruptcy, all prior contracts are subject to chance or cancellation. Including financial debts.

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 6):
2) The judge in this case felt it was not in the publics interest to have the Flight attendants strike, so he blocked it. I feel he should have blocked both the right to strike, but also the wage cuts until both sides can reach an agreement. It seems odd to allow NW to break the contract, impose wage cuts, but not allow the flight attendants to do anything about it

NWA is considered more important to the public interest (and creditors) than the flight attendant union. FAs have rights, but those rights are subordinate to the public interest.

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 6):
3) Don't get me wrong here, I believe that the flight attendant wages were unsustainable, but a contract is a contract. If you need to change it, then it is something that needs to be agreed upon by both parties. For NW to say that they will go out of business if the wage structure doesn't change is NW's problem, they agreed to this contract, and should live by it, not just cry foul when it no longer suits them.

Again, in bankruptcy, NW has the freedom to amend contracts. That is what bankruptcy protection is.

If someone holds a gun to your head and make you sign a contract, I wouldn't go blaming you for the ill wisdom of the contract later on. It is too bad people have to hurt each other this way and end up penniless.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
Ahhh new tactics, much like what the air traffic controllers did in 81! See, that is my problem, we just bring the company to a halt attitude really does suck, really does!

So what is your "armchair" suggestion? How would you tell the F/A's to handle this situation? How would you tell NW Management to handle the situation?
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 1):
I like how the one judge pointed out that a strike wouldn't be in the public interest!!!!!

NWA isn't in the public's best interest anymore  stirthepot 
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
PresRDC
Posts: 512
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:00 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
That's how things normally work, but since NW is in bankruptcy, indeed they can just throw out the contract, with the judge's approval.

A bankrupt company is a failed company! The fact that NW FAs even have jobs now is solely due to the bankruptcy process. If the judge thought it was in the best interest of the creditors for the company to fold up and sell off all its property, that is what would have happened, and it may yet happen.

Leagally speaking, NW FAs signed a contract with a company that failed, not the one that hopes to emerge from bankruptcy. The investors will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar after all is said and done. The FAs had to realize they were working for a company with major issues, and now unfortunately the spam has hit the fan, and everyone is covered in it.

So, no, it's not NW's problem. Everyone involved in a corporation (employees, management, executives, directors, investors) is taking a risk. It's just plain old capitalism at work. NW promised things it could not deliver. It's pretty clear to me the FAs could and should have seen something like this happening. To now say the company should just make things right by them is very, very naive. If such ignorance of how capitalism works wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable.

These are very good points that bear repeating. Every stakeholder in the company loses in a bankruptcy. NWA is not just tearing-up labor contracts, but supplier contracts as well, which, in turn, have a greater ripple effect.

Labor needs to understand that they are but one of many stakeholders in NWA and, to the extent that they are not creditors, their interests are subordinated in a Chapter 11 action.
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6580
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 17):
Wasn't the FA contract up? I thought they were negotiating for a contract that had expired, so they didn't throw out a contract, they negotiated a new one and imposed it..

Our contract was expired, but the expired contract continues under the Railway Labour Agreement until a new is negotiated*

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 23):
Yes, in bankruptcy, all prior contracts are subject to chance or cancellation. Including financial debts



Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 23):
Again, in bankruptcy, NW has the freedom to amend contracts. That is what bankruptcy protection is.

Wrong, they do not, nor should not be able to use the courts to cancel contracts on-demand like a morning-after pill. Thay should still have to prove their case in court (which NWA did, not arguing that), otherwise these court filings would become capricious and arbitrary. That is wrong.
Made from jets!
 
mspguy
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:49 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 19):
Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 15):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
It's attitudes like yours that make those of us who have to deal with you dislike serving you. The vast majority of customers are just fine. The 2% factor of poeple like you can make our lives pretty unpleasant.

Actually when I fly I'm very low maintenance,

Uh huh.

It's the ones who don't realize what jerks they are who are the biggest jerks of all.

So let me get this straight...... Because I don't agree with the FA's striking, I'm a jerk when I travel?????
If it ain't broke, DON'T touch it!!!!
 
Indy
Posts: 3938
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I think the judge disagrees with you.

And if thousands of workers decide to walk off the job what is this judge going to do about it? About the only thing he can do is allow the company to terminate the employment and those who walk get denied benefits and unemployment. Other than that there is nothing he can do about it.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Other than that there is nothing he can do about it.

Actually union leaders have gone to jail as recently as last year over this type of action. Do you remember the NYC Transit Workers?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 30):

Actually union leaders have gone to jail as recently as last year over this type of action. Do you remember the NYC Transit Workers?

Plus, wasn't AA's pilot union heavily fined for their walkout after the Reno Air merger?

I never really understood why airline jobs went solely on seniority. I can see why flight attendant jobs use seniority in a way, because they aren't professionals, but why do pilots not have experience based pay instead of seniority pay.

AAndrew
 
Indy
Posts: 3938
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 30):
Actually union leaders have gone to jail as recently as last year over this type of action. Do you remember the NYC Transit Workers?

The transit workers didn't shut down an airline. They crippled a city. That is the difference between flight attendants and transit workers.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ckfred
Posts: 4712
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:17 am

At the very least, Congress needs to amend the RLA to cover the issue of contracts voided by a bankruptcy court.

But, maybe the time has come to get rid of the RLA, at least for airline bargaining units.

When the RLA was amended to include airlines, the CAB regulated the airlines. If an airline was struck, other carriers couldn't fill in easily to carry extra passengers. Now, airlines can shuffle their schedules and fleet to take advantage of the extra traffic.

When the F/As struck AA in the early 90s, NW added extra flights and widebodies between its hubs and AA's hubs.

The other problem with the RLA is that a union can't strike until the NLRB mediator declares an impasse and starts the 30-day cooling off period. This could be more than a year after a contract becomes open to renogiation, and it does make it hard for the traveling public to book around a strike.

If, hypothetically, I know that WN's pilots' contract expires on a certain date, then I can book around WN after that date. But with the RLA, it could be months before a strike date is certain.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13827
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
And if thousands of workers decide to walk off the job what is this judge going to do about it? About the only thing he can do is allow the company to terminate the employment and those who walk get denied benefits and unemployment. Other than that there is nothing he can do about it.

Are you new at this? The judge can throw the leaders of the strike in jail, and can seize all assets and issue punative fines against the union. In esssence, he can bring the union to its knees.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
LMP737
Posts: 4808
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
In America, union's should be illegal.

I will tell what is illegal. Intentured servitude which in another post you seemed to endorse

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
The way I was brought up, they were not only sinful, but anti-American.

So basically you raised this way and don't have enough sense to think that who ever taught you this might be wrong.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4808
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
The company should be free to offer what they see as fair compensation for the job and if a flight attendant with the ability to speak five languages doesn't think the wage the company is offering is fair than they should leave and find work for a company that see's them as an asset and pays them accordingly.

People should also have the right to organize and negotiate for better wages, benefits etc. Wait a minute, they already do.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting MSPGUY (Reply 28):
So let me get this straight...... Because I don't agree with the FA's striking, I'm a jerk when I travel?????

It's your stated opinoin that you think we are made up of overpaid, overeducated people.

It's an attitude towards a profession that revolts me. You simply don't get it.

And you're far from alone. We're treated like garbage every day....by just a few people...but enough to make you sick of the job. You know, uninformed, out of touch people like yourself.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:20 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
Seniority is going the way
of the DC 6....out to pasture.

Ahh not quite...I am non union now and we still have a seniority system but merit also does play into it where it does not generally at a union company. Our annual bonus is based on merit. Slackers still get one but it is a percentage. Those who take on extra tasks or special projects get the most. To be truthful I like it this way but I make a good salary because of the THREAT of getting a union. If unions did not exist I would be making a fraction of what I make now and most likely not near the benefits.
 
Charger
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:20 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
In America, union's should be illegal.

So should stupidity. When your out in the working world for a while and get kicked around let's see if your opinion changes.

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
The way I was brought up, they were not only sinful, but anti-American

Then you were brought up wrong. I worked 20 years in a union position and went through many strikes. 1 strike in particular lasted 6 months. But in the end we were constantly gauranteed full medical, paid for entirely by the company, gauranteed vacation time (up to 6 weeks per year by seniority), gauranteed sick time (2 weeks per year), 5 personal days off with pay, $25 bucks an hour regular time, overtime after 40 hours, double time after 50 hours and and a (100%) company matching 401K. Do you honestly think any of this would be available to us if there was no union.

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
When a company uses bankruptcy to negotiate terms of a new contract in bad faith while using the courts to protect the pay of executives I think the FAs have every right in the world to walk

So do I.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 20):
As was pointed out to you before, the court is not protecting the executives pay, only their separation payment if they lose their job

And exactly why should their separation pay be protected? How much money are we talking about here? I'm sure it's in the millions, but yet F/A's Can't get a couple of bucks raise. Pure B.S.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 30):
Actually union leaders have gone to jail as recently as last year over this type of action. Do you remember the NYC Transit Workers

IIRC The transit workers union has a clause in their contracts that specifically says they can't strike, and that's why the union leader's went to jail.
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
The way I was brought up, they were not only sinful, but anti-American.

Can someone pleae fully explain this type of thing to me? Why is it that if anyone disagrees with something in the US, many make this claim of it being "anti-American". What exactly has disagreeing with something got to do with such a frequent, and mostly non-sensical, statement?
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Charger (Reply 39):
IIRC The transit workers union has a clause in their contracts that specifically says they can't strike, and that's why the union leader's went to jail.

Not quite, but close. It's actually New York State law that states that public employees cannot strike, officially the Public Employees Fair Employment Act, but better known as the Taylor Law.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Charger
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:20 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 41):
Not quite, but close. It's actually New York State law that states that public employees cannot strike, officially the Public Employees Fair Employment Act, but better known as the Taylor Law

I was close, but no cigar. Thanks for correcting me. I knew I read somewhere that there was a reason that they couldn't walk.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Charger (Reply 39):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 20):
As was pointed out to you before, the court is not protecting the executives pay, only their separation payment if they lose their job

And exactly why should their separation pay be protected? How much money are we talking about here? I'm sure it's in the millions, but yet F/A's Can't get a couple of bucks raise. Pure B.S.

I see your point, but it's standard practice in big-company bankruptcies. I guess the board of directors and the bankruptcy judge feel that it's crucial to retain talent. Bankrupcy will send your best and brightest packing f.a.s.t.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Indy
Posts: 3938
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 34):
Are you new at this? The judge can throw the leaders of the strike in jail, and can seize all assets and issue punative fines against the union. In esssence, he can bring the union to its knees.

This is America. Nobody can be forced to work. If the workers refuse to honor the new contract the judge can't do anything about it. The best he can do is allow the airlines to terminate them. All the union has to do is deny involvement. I'd personally like to see the judge try and do something about it. Doesn't matter what you do to the entity known as the union. You can't force the workers to return.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
rdwelch
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:52 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 41):
Not quite, but close. It's actually New York State law that states that public employees cannot strike, officially the Public Employees Fair Employment Act, but better known as the Taylor Law.

Is this like the PATCO situation in '81 with the ATCs and Reagan?

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 24):
So what is your "armchair" suggestion? How would you tell the F/A's to handle this situation? How would you tell NW Management to handle the situation?

Good question as I actually don't have a dog in the fight for sure, but how did you folks work our your issue with your company last year? Seemed to work to get a signed agreement, but then CO and NW are a bit different I'd guess seeing it from my chair.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
. In America, union's should be illegal. The way I was brought up, they were not only sinful, but anti-American.

Somebody needs to review their United States history. Much of the standard of living enjoyed by Americans today was the result of union activity. Just a couple, medical, workers comp; then there was retirement benefits. Yes, its true some unions are/have been/will be corrupt, but then again so have some mangement at various firms. What appears to be the case today, public employees appear to be the ones whos benefits are increasing, thanks to unions/employee associations. One example here in Arizona, the state legislature just granted probation officers a 20 year retirement at 50%. I suppose the FA at NW or any other airline could only dream about a retirement package like that.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 1655
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 13):
Quoting Squid (Reply 3):
Well here they go again. Why don't the flight attendants just give up and shut up. If you don't like the terms and pay that your airlines is offering, then move along.

RIIIGGHHHTTTT...tell that to a senior flight attendant with lots of years in the company. Sure they can go to another airline but start at the BOTTOM of the seniority list. We all know that seniority is EVERYTHING in the biz

Seniority is a product of the unions. Not the companies. So, you should complain to the union about that messy seniority thingy. I am sure every airline would do away with it tomorrow if the unions agree.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
So, no, it's not NW's problem. Everyone involved in a corporation (employees, management, executives, directors, investors) is taking a risk. It's just plain old capitalism at work. NW promised things it could not deliver. It's pretty clear to me the FAs could and should have seen something like this happening. To now say the company should just make things right by them is very, very naive. If such ignorance of how capitalism works wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable.

Outstanding post! RR list here you come!

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
When a company uses bankruptcy to negotiate terms of a new contract in bad faith while using the courts to protect the pay of executives I think the FAs have every right in the world to walk

If you do not protect the pay of executives (actually severance pay) you will have nobody running the airline and the bankruptcy judge will just disolve the company. Then you can walk all you want.

Quoting Indy (Reply 18):
When management acts they way they do I think they should be held accountable

And, likewise, the union should be held accountable. Remember, duly elected bargaining committees from two seperate unions came to terms with NW and the membership supported neither. If the union will not support the bargaining committee of TWO unions the accountability comes in when the BK judge allows the airline to impose the first tenative agreement.

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 24):
So what is your "armchair" suggestion? How would you tell the F/A's to handle this situation?

Live with it. Take responsibility that you blew it when you changed unions in mid stream and did not support two seperate union bargaining teams. When you do something like that, even without a company being in bankruptcy, it usually is game-set-match company.

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
And if thousands of workers decide to walk off the job what is this judge going to do about it?

I don't know, he almost bankrupted the AA pilots union by fineing them. And I believe he threatened to jail the union leadership if they didn't go back to work--but I am not sure about that. But he could have done that. Interesting to see the US Marshal's showing up at a union heads house.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 33):
But, maybe the time has come to get rid of the RLA, at least for airline bargaining units.

Won't happen. The airlines won't let it happen.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 40):
Can someone pleae fully explain this type of thing to me? Why is it that if anyone disagrees with something in the US, many make this claim of it being "anti-American". What exactly has disagreeing with something got to do with such a frequent, and mostly non-sensical, statement?

It means you have no good argument. Sorta like the ultimate insult.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13827
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: NWA Flight Attendants Ask Court To Allow Strike

Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 44):
This is America. Nobody can be forced to work. If the workers refuse to honor the new contract the judge can't do anything about it. The best he can do is allow the airlines to terminate them. All the union has to do is deny involvement. I'd personally like to see the judge try and do something about it. Doesn't matter what you do to the entity known as the union. You can't force the workers to return.

Some googling came up with the following quotes about the AA pilot's sick-out of 1999, from all things, a socialist web site!

Quote:
Kendall ordered the APA to pay $10 million as a downpayment on an even larger "eight-figure" fine to compensate for American Airlines' lost business. He also ordered APA President Richard Lavoy and Vice-President Brian Mayhew to pay $10,000 and $5,000 respectively.



Quote:
Kendall was infuriated by the refusal of hundreds of pilots to comply with an order he had issued last week demanding an end to the sick-out. Union officers maintained that they had tried to enforce the order. But Kendall told them, "No one can make someone else go fly an airplane. Particularly if someone is dishonest and willing to lie and say they are sick when they really aren't. Despite all the macho chest beating and mouthing off by anonymous pilots, I have never made that claim. But what a federal judge can do, and what I will do, is make people pay for what they break. So if the activity and consequent damages continue, when all the dust clears, all the assets of the Union, including their strike war chest, will be capable of being safely stored in the overhead bin of a Piper Cub."



Quoting AirCop (Reply 47):
What appears to be the case today, public employees appear to be the ones whos benefits are increasing, thanks to unions/employee associations.

That bubble will burst some day too. For instance, CALPERS (the fund that backs most California public employee pensions) is projected to go bankrupt at about the same time Social Security does.

Currently the public supports very generous contracts for its employees, hoping that some of that goodness rubs off on their own employment situation. But something tells me that after decades of this not working, and incredibly high taxes to support people not working, things will change.

This has been an interesting thread to read. It seems a lot of people have very hardened positions. I hope the thread helps people see the other's points of views.
Inspiration, move me brightly!