UAL777UK
Topic Author
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:25 am

Can somebody please explain what is going on here. This very public spat must be undermining AA chance of getting the China route.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061129/american_airlines_china.html?.v=2
 
aacun
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:47 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:16 am

YEAH,

Thay want to be able to occupy our cabin jumpseats!!!!!!!!!!!! In your dreams!!!!!! Unless it´s only after every AA and AE flight attendant has been accomodated first............. And I cant beleive they are asking for this, something sooo unrelated to the route case...... Just negotiate the items that need negotiating so the route can start if awarded, then worry about your selfish requests.............
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Thread starter):
Can somebody please explain what is going on here.

Gladly.

AA's pilots' union calculated that they could threaten AA management into giving them what they wanted because they knew management badly wanted the D/FW-Beijing route and the two have just recently traded contract openers for their contract which is not actually up for another year or two.

The pilots' union miscalculated, however, as they thought AA would give in to their demands because of how much they want the Beijing route. Turns out AA management is not quite that myopic -- they're not going to give the APA an inch just so they can get a single route.

The pilots have asked for things like being able to use cabin jumpseats currently used by flight attendants on full flights, and get the privelege of being able to walk up to the gate for a flight 20 minutes before departure and get on the flight before all the other non-pilot nonrevs who were there from hours before. As these are no-cost items to the company, but could be used by management as leverage to get monetary savings out of the union, what will probably end up happening is AA will give the pilots what they want in terms of jumpseats and deadheading priority, royally pissing off all the other workgroups -- especially the ever-militant flight attendants -- in the process. So much for union unity.

The ironic thing is that AA's pilots had a very big interest in AA getting the Beijing route, as it would have given their member some great high-paying long-haul flying and brought hundreds of millions to AA's bottom line, which helps everyone.

Quoting UAL777UK (Thread starter):
This very public spat must be undermining AA chance of getting the China route.

Personally, I think that AA was in an excellent position to potentially get the 2007 route authority for D/FW-Beijing. Now, this little stunt by the APA has all but killed that.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:01 am

this isn't the first time that a union has caused a company to lose revenue. in fact, it's rather typical in the airline industry.

I still don't believe this little spat will affect the DOT's decision unless either AA or the pilots say they are at an impasse. The DOT awards backup authority on all major route awards so if AA can't perform the services awarded to it, it goes to another carrier.

This kind of spat shows what AA is up against in the future as its labor contracts come up for renewal... and demonstrates why it is difficult to be at the beginning of a contract cycle. AA will not grow until its costs are competitive w/ other carriers - right now AA's labor costs are the highest in the industry - and it has assurances that its investment in new equipment will not be ruined by labor groups.
 
AJMIA
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
The pilots have asked for things like being able to use cabin jumpseats currently used by flight attendants on full flights, and get the privelege of being able to walk up to the gate for a flight 20 minutes before departure and get on the flight before all the other non-pilot nonrevs who were there from hours before.

Shame on the pilots for asking and shame on management for even considering it!

They already have unlimited D6 cabin seat agreements with quite a few other airlines which means as long as their is an empty seat on the other airline they can fly free in a cabin seat that any other employee (except flight attendants who have unlimited D7 priviledges on a couple airlines) has to pay a ZED or an ID90 ticket to use.

As a ground employee I can not use flight deck or cabin jump seat, but my butt fits just as easily in a cabin seat as theirs does.

Stupid, stupid, stupid... we can all point fingers at each other when someone else is awarded the route authority.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
UAL777UK
Topic Author
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:35 pm

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. IMHO its game over for them and this route, I think CO will get it, although I would love to see UA awarded the "Capital to Capital" route.
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
AA will give the pilots what they want in terms of jumpseats and deadheading priority

The first won't happen, and the second likely won't either. First off, the APFA (flight attendant union) owns the cabin jumpseat. What I mean by that is the APFA contract with AA specifically states pilots cannot occupy the cabin jumpseat. An issue one union "owns" cannot be negotiated by another union. The fact the pilots are even attempting to push the cabin jumpseat issue is sad because it pits one union against another, and that is never productive for either work group.

Second, giving pilots nonrev priority over the company's 70-thousand other employees will do far more harm than good, and will go a long way in pitting all work groups against the pilots. D2 has always been first come, first served and should stay that way. I doubt the company is willing to change that, seeing how they've worked to amend relationships with the various union and non union work groups on the property.

For the pilot's to call their wish list a proposal is a joke. I always try to remain optimistic, look at the big picture and not get wrapped up in propaganda from the company or the union. However, in this case, I am deeply disappointed with the pilot's move. Having the right to fly to Beijing should be enough for pilots to work out an agreement. As the company stated in their response to the APA, the items they've requested are better suited to contract negotiations and not the sort of agreement their looking for to fly a particular route.

Isn't the right to fly a lucrative, high-time trip that will fly no more than nine days a month enough? I can't imagine anything better. And the sad thing is, when I talk to pilots on the line, they don't understand why the union is taking a hard line. Of course, precedence is precedence, but come on, this isn't contract negotiations. You're negotiating a side agreement to fly what will easily become the highest time trip in the system and most productive. It just frustrates the hell out of me.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 6):
The first won't happen, and the second likely won't either.

I'm not so sure, unfortunately for all the rest of you hard-working AA people.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 6):
Second, giving pilots nonrev priority over the company's 70-thousand other employees will do far more harm than good, and will go a long way in pitting all work groups against the pilots.

Like I said, the APA just threw union unity out the window. They have sufficiently pissed off every other work group now, not least of which the flight attendants, with these ridiculous demands.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 6):
I doubt the company is willing to change that, seeing how they've worked to amend relationships with the various union and non union work groups on the property.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the company give pilots improved jumpseat space and/or better nonrev priority, as it's a non-cost item to the company. It costs American precisely $0 to give this to the pilots, and it obviously means a lot to them, so management might then demand something monetary in return that might make it a net positive for the company's bottom line. Of course, as you rightly said, it would absolutely infuriate everyone else, though.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:54 am

I might be missing somthing,I don't see in this article where the APA wants to bump anyone out of a CJS,I also do not see where they are trying to take priority in boarding, D2 travel is different than deadheading..on the other issues correct me if I'm wrong...(and believe me,if they are trying to take D2 priority over everyone else,they are dead wrong)
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:04 am

Surely the company wouldn't even consider playing games with the D2 travel rules. The remaining union groups would riot and the non-union work groups would likely reconsider unionization. Fiddling with the D2 rules for the benefit of a single work group would be managerial suicide! Don't do it!

Best Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:13 am

I really half expected this thread to contain a proposal by AA to operate DFW-PEK with no pilots on board.

NS
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 8):
I might be missing somthing,I don't see in this article where the APA wants to bump anyone out of a CJS

It may not be in this article, but that's what the APA wants. It was all over the news in the D/FW Metroplex earlier this week and late last. Just ask any APFA flight attendant -- the ones I've talked to are fuming. The pilots want to be able to take open cabin jumpseats when flying.

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 8):
I also do not see where they are trying to take priority in boarding, D2 travel is different than deadheading

Again, that is what they want, regardless of whether it made it into this article. Pilots want to be able to get top nonrev priority when deadheading, regardless of whether other nonrevs flying on regular nonrev travel checked in before them or not.
 
DualQual
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:46 am

Not taking sides here but how does Nonrev priority work at AA? When I was growing up in a DL family, non-rev priorty was based of off seniority. How long you had been sitting at the airport had nothing to do with it.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Again, that is what they want, regardless of whether it made it into this article. Pilots want to be able to get top nonrev priority when deadheading, regardless of whether other nonrevs flying on regular nonrev travel checked in before them or not.

If they want priority for personal travel,then yes that is a bunch of happy horses&^% and I hope AA doesn't buy into it.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:10 am

What's wrong with the pilots being able to occupy the cabin jump seats after all flight attendants have been accommodated? They would not be bumping anybody at all. I discussed this with several Flight Attendants here at Continental and they said they would be game with the idea if they(flight attendants) could occupy the pilot jump seats after all pilots have been accommodated. Some airlines already do this. Heck pilots and flight attendants already have access to each other's areas during flight what's wrong with letting each other get to and from work this way.

Pilots have priority for the cockpit jumpseat and flight attendants have priority on the cabin seat. Easy as that. Everyone wins.

IAHERJ
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:19 am

I doubt that the DOT would be particularly concerned about some disagreement with the pilots. They will answer to larger political concerns and presumed economic benefit.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
I think that AA was in an excellent position to potentially get the 2007 route authority for D/FW-Beijing.

I thought that DFW-PEK was rather weak since most of the passengers would be connecting. They would have even fewer O&D passengers than DET. My money would be with CO and the huge O&D market out of NYC or UA with the second largest O&D and political angle of IAD. The only thing AA has going for it is that it is the largest airline but has only one daily flight to China.
 
NikonDFW
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:58 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Again, that is what they want, regardless of whether it made it into this article. Pilots want to be able to get top nonrev priority when deadheading, regardless of whether other nonrevs flying on regular nonrev travel checked in before them or not.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this issue..First, when a pilot or fa is deadheading they are positive space A10/11, etc..The pilots are asking for first class priority when there are other deadheaders on the same flight.

Example: Lets say the first DFW-ORD flight in the morning has 20 deadheading crew members, 10 pilots and 10 f/as they are all positive space, but they are not guaranted a first class seat. It's whomever gets on the priority list first among the crew members deadheading, and since they are A class travelers they will get first before any D1/2/3 traveler anyways. The pilots are wanting first class over the f/a's reguardless of who gets on the priority list first.

If a pilot is based at DFW but lives somewhere else then they are on their own, they travel D1/2 like everybody else. The pilots are not trying to get any priority for personal travel, AA would never let that happen.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:20 am

If the cabin jumpseat would otherwise go empty, what is the big deal?

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 6):
An issue one union "owns" cannot be negotiated by another union.

Just ask Delta and Comair/ASA/Delta Connection pilots how that idea has worked out for them. If the company wants it bad enough, it will find away to molify the flight attendants.
Proud OOTSK member
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4306
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
If the cabin jumpseat would otherwise go empty, what is the big deal?

The big deal is that an empty pilot/cockpit jumpseat going empty would never be used for AA inflight. If AA inflight had the opportunity to get cockpit jumpseat (I can't see AA's pilots agreeing to that one), then that may change things, till then, it's a no-go deal.

Personally, a seat is a seat and if it gets a non-rev employee on, let's do it. But red tape is just that. Long and never ending.
You can't cure stupid
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
This kind of spat shows what AA is up against in the future as its labor contracts come up for renewal... and demonstrates why it is difficult to be at the beginning of a contract cycle. AA will not grow until its costs are competitive w/ other carriers - right now AA's labor costs are the highest in the industry - and it has assurances that its investment in new equipment will not be ruined by labor groups.

Southwests A @ P's make five dollar's an hour more than American's. As for the Pilot's once again they show the attitude that they are bigger than the company.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:54 am

yes, but how does AA's maintenance costs compare with other network carriers? Some carriers, we know, don't even have maintenance depts. for all practical purposes other than to change lightbulbs at night. (slightly sarcastic).

Does the FAA not require that FA jumpseat occupants be capable of performing emergency duties. I'm not sure I want a pilot or any other employee occupying a jumpseat if they can't perform the duties if necessary. I also do not see FAs getting access to the cockpit jumpseats by any of the major carriers.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 18):
The big deal is that an empty pilot/cockpit jumpseat going empty would never be used for AA inflight. If AA inflight had the opportunity to get cockpit jumpseat (I can't see AA's pilots agreeing to that one), then that may change things, till then, it's a no-go deal.

The pilots don't have much say in that. Cockpit observer seat access is regulated first by the Feds, second by the company, and third by the union. If the situation were different, then I might agree with you.
Proud OOTSK member
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4306
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
Does the FAA not require that FA jumpseat occupants be capable of performing emergency duties. I'm not sure I want a pilot or any other employee occupying a jumpseat if they can't perform the duties if necessary. I also do not see FAs getting access to the cockpit jumpseats by any of the major carriers.

Exactly. Similar to my sentiment two posts ago. Where are some AA a.netters here to add to this?
You can't cure stupid
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:25 am

It's all for naught. The route will no doubt go to a carrier that is ailing. The government in the past awards lucrative routes to carriers that are not finacially well off as others.
I would think the route will go to either UA or NW.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
I'm not sure I want a pilot or any other employee occupying a jumpseat if they can't perform the duties if necessary.

What leads you to believe that a pilot would be unable to perform or assist in emergency duties? In some emergencies, help may be solcitied from other airline employees, regardless of the seat they occupy and regardless of training.
Proud OOTSK member
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 18):
The big deal is that an empty pilot/cockpit jumpseat going empty would never be used for AA inflight. If AA inflight had the opportunity to get cockpit jumpseat (I can't see AA's pilots agreeing to that one), then that may change things, till then, it's a no-go deal.

The TWU has it in their contract to let the mechanics use the cockpit jumpseat, but APA doesn't let them, even though APA theoretically isn't allowed to stop them per their contract. There's no reason to believe APA wouldn't similarly deny the cockpit jumpseat to flight attendants even if APA and APFA worked out a reciprocal agreement.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 21):
Cockpit observer seat access is regulated first by the Feds, second by the company, and third by the union. If the situation were different, then I might agree with you.

And the feds explicitly say that A&P mechanics can use the cockpit jumpseat. It's less clear for, say, flight attendants, but I'd note that B6 lets their flight attendants use the cockpit jumpseat, in theory once a year, but in practice more.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20):
Does the FAA not require that FA jumpseat occupants be capable of performing emergency duties. I'm not sure I want a pilot or any other employee occupying a jumpseat if they can't perform the duties if necessary.

If they're not jumpseat qualified (as the flight attendants are), anyone else can still ride in the f/a jumpseats as long as the flight attendants give them a briefing on how to operate the exits. (If the jumpseat is not located at an exit, nothing is required.)
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
HikesWithEyes
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:54 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 23):
The government in the past awards lucrative routes to carriers that are not finacially well off as others.

Then can you explain the govt. awarding DCA slots to AS ?
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 18):
a seat is a seat and if it gets a non-rev employee on, let's do it.

I totally agree. The problem in this case is the pilot's know cabin jumpseat access is strictly governed by the flight attendant contract. With them attempting to strong arm the jumpseat from the company, they are directly asking the company to violate the flight attendant's contract. I don't think the pilots would like it if we started to dictate how their contract should be enforced. It's a matter of respect for another union on the property. There is nothing to gain by alienating fellow union members. We need to work together, not pick fights with one another.

I think if there were some discussions between the APA and APFA, cockpit access to flight attendant jumpseats would be doable, but of course, as these things go, there would have to be something in it for the flight attendants. Cockpit jumpseat access is one thing that would work. And for those unsure of the legality of this, it is perfectly legal. There are no FAR's that prohibit flight attendants from occupying cockpit jumpseats.

Also, the pilots are attempting to get higher priority nonrev status for commuting. Funny thing is, they're not the only ones that commute. As the system stands, it's equitable for everyone. Giving the pilots priority over flight attendants and others that commute will only alienate the other work groups and does nothing to move this company forward.

The whole proposal from APA is ridiculous. Getting the opportunity to fly the route will be just as lucrative to the pilots as it will be to the company, and that should be enough to sign an agreement. I can't believe they are turning this into a pissing match.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4306
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 27):
We need to work together, not pick fights with one another.

I wish more people thought like we did. We are all in the same tent dealing with the same circus, let's make the most of it and just transition it smoothly.

I would love jumpseat up front as well as a pilot getting jumpseat in the back. That and other airline flight attendants getting reciprocal jumpseat on us. We all have FAA certificates, why the hell not?
You can't cure stupid
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: AA Opposes Pilots On China Flights

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 26):
Then can you explain the govt. awarding DCA slots to AS ?

It's called politics and AS isn't as healthy as you think its been the past few quarters. They never served the DC area. It's a little different now.

safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.