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AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:45 pm

An interesting report from ATI

According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.

[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.rati.com/ subscriber only service ]

States that order should be made prior to year end.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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OU812
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
According to a report carried in ATI AirBridge Cargo, a subsidiary or Vloga Dnepr are on the verge of ordering "several" B747-8F which would take sales for the 748-F to over 50 units.

Holy $hit !

50 units  eyepopping 

That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:57 pm

Confirms my theory that if you need a big plane you order 748 for cargo and A388 for pax.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 1):
That's a lot of revenue . PamAm , you may want to add the 50 units to the thread title .

Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;

10 x Cargolux plus 10 purchase rights
8 x NCA plus 6 options
12 x Atlas Air plus 12 options
10 x EK Skycargo plus 10 purchase rights
4 x Guggenheim Aviation Partners
5 x Korean Air plus 2 options

49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Confirms my theory that if you need a big plane you order 748 for cargo and A388 for pax.

Well, I half agree with you.  Wink
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scouseflyer
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:13 pm

Has Boeing speculated what the production rate might be - are we looking at a couple of years production here?
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:14 pm

For an old dog "cornered" by cheaper conversions, the 747F new-build program still soldiers on.

Is the 747F line going to four deliveries per month? If so, this will order will push them over the amount needed to sell out 2010.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Is the 747F line going to four deliveries per month?

Is this necessary for a freighter plane?

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OU812
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
Hi OU812, No there are already 44 747-8F units sold so this implies that AirBridge intend to order 6 or more and total sales for the 747-8F variant will be over 50 by year end. Nor does that include KE who have not been booked firm yet. I did not say AirBridge would order 50, but "several" of the variant. 747-8F order book stands as follows;

Oh !


 blush 
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 7):
Is this necessary for a freighter plane?

It is if demand warrants it. And with the line sold out until at least 2010, it appears demand does.  Smile
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Has Boeing speculated what the production rate might be - are we looking at a couple of years production here?

Curious,
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F ?

http://www.compositesworld.com/news/cwweekly/2006/November/cw110808

Boeing begins moving assembly line for the 777
The Boeing Co. (Seattle, Wash.) has started using a moving assembly line for the first time to build its market-leading 777 jetliner. For now, the moving assembly line is used only during final assembly positions for the airplane, moving it at a steady pace of 1.6 inches per minute during production.


Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
49 firm orders plus 40 options / purchase rights. Not bad for the launch year.

Agreed !
That would mean if Boeing used the Airbus method of counting orders . Boeing would have close to 100 orders for the 747-8F !  biggrin 
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 10):
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F

The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
And with the line sold out until at least 2010

Wow, good news for Boeing. For the time being, Looks like, Boeing have a better freighter plane compare to Airbus. With 747F and 777F.

When is the EIS for 748F?


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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
It is if demand warrants it. And with the line sold out until at least 2010, it appears demand does.

An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.

Don't worry OU812 these things happen  Smile

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 12):
When is the EIS for 748F?

EIS will be in the later part of the second half of 2009.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
Quoting OU812 (Reply 10):
Will Boeing be utilizing the moving assembly line for the 747-8F

The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.

For that matter, all Boeing products in production are on a moving line or in the process of being converted to one:

747
767
737NG
777 (conversion taking place as of Nov 2006)
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
The 747 assembly line has been "moving" for some time now.

Um... no they aren't. A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly. 737 and 777 are the only ones using a moving line for Final Assembly. As far as the 787 goes, we shall call it "moving factory" not "moving line." I wish i could say more...
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 16):
A "moving line" and "move the aircraft to different slots for furthur production" are not the same. 747 and 767 are BOTH on slanted production for final assembly.

No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well.



Continuous Innovation -- 767 Program Begins Moving-Line Process

EVERETT, Wash., March 20, 2002 -- The moving line and related changes were adapted from automotive lean manufacturing methods in Japan. And while moving lines in airplane production are not new, what is new is the fusion of moving lines with lean manufacturing techniques. A continuously moving assembly line slowly moves products from one assembly team to the next. This technique keeps production moving at a steady pace, allowing employees to gauge status at a glance and reduce the amount of work-in-process inventory.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...02/photorelease/q1/pr_020320g.html

Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.

Sorry for all the edits.

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:10:21]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:11:17]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:14:53]

[Edited 2006-11-30 19:16:53]
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
An interesting note as an aside. We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F. Two top tier carriers that have large PAX and Cargo operations. By going with both models, this could allow flexibilty to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F. Just a thought.

Certainly an interesting thought. However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
We have now seen EK & KE both go with the 777F and the 747-8F...By going with both models, this could allow flexibility to order the 747-8i or -F and convert from one variant to the other, if needed. This may help Boeing in securing 747-8i orders as demand for the -F is considerable and if an order is made for the PAX variant and then not needed it could be converted to the -F.

It is possible, but I find it more likely that it could help 748 orders in maximizing the life of the airframe within the airline, first by using it as a passenger carrier for a decade or two and then converting it to a cargo model and running it as a freighter for another decade or two.

Does anyone know if Boeing is designing future freighter conversion ability into the passenger model? Something to make the conversion much quicker and cheaper? I imagine actual physical reinforcement of the floor and such would not be desirable due to the extra weight, but what if Boeing designed in the mounting points for such reinforcement? Yes, it adds a few "hundred" pounds now, but not the "thousands" full reinforcement would and it would make the conversion quicker and less expensive.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 18):
Certainly an interesting thought (PanAm_DC10). However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.

Well the 748I won't be available until 2010, and Boeing or potential customers could be holding slots on the production line to accommodate 748I deliveries. If no orders happen, then Boeing can accelerate 748F deliveries, but the freight haulers themselves may not want their entire fleet delivered over a period of a few months and may themselves prefer a more leisurely delivery schedule which leaves openings for Boeing to slot in 748Is.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
No, both the 767 (since 2002) and 747 (since 2003) are assembled on the same type of moving line pioneered with the 717. FWIW, the 757 was assembled on a moving line from 2002 as well

I am afraid that is incorrect, as Beech19 mentioned both the 747 and 767 are on a slant production line contrary to what that excerpt mentions. I was visting the Everett facility two weeks ago and both of those types were still using the slant production method.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
Sorry, I haven't been succesful finding a press release announcing the conversion of the 747 production to a "moving" assembly line, but I've seen it in action with my own eyes.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything but i'm not sure the last time you were in there... but i'm there all the time. And as of last week both aircraft are using slant and have been for some time.
I remember that press release you referred too but i also remember hearing something that is wasn't working out for the legacy aircraft and so they went back to slant.

I shall ask someone... calling right now...

Okay... my father-in-law who works on the 747 has confirmed. They tried the 747 and 767 moving lines for about 9 months. They was then canceled because it was not working out for them. They are back on slant and have been for over 2 years. There is still no official decision on doing the 748 on moving line but they are toying with the idea of introducing 767 moving line again, but with some changes.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:48 am

Let's make it easy. If you see a tractor pulling an aircraft that's NOT a "moving line"
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 21):

Thanx for the information. I was last in the plant in January 2004, when there was one 747F airframe on the moving line, the place did indeed look barren. I saw the 767 assembly line in action in early 2003 as well, when there were two airframes on the moving line. Perhaps Boeing decided to go back "on the slant" because of the relatively low production rates on these lines? I'm sure the tracks and other towing apparatus necessary for the moving lines remain in the floor of the respective bays of the factory allowing for rapid conversion should management decide to resume "moving" assembly in the future.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Md95 (Reply 22):
Let's make it easy. If you see a tractor pulling an aircraft that's NOT a "moving line"

Thats actually a good point... the picture above of the 767 is actually NOT on a moving line but its a completed aircraft getting pulled out of the factory. The moving line still has TONS of rigs and stuff all over the aircraft just has a self powered tow that follows a white line on the floor via optics.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
It is possible, but I find it more likely that it could help 748 orders in maximizing the life of the airframe within the airline, first by using it as a passenger carrier for a decade or two and then converting it to a cargo model and running it as a freighter for another decade or two.

It's a valid point, but I'll ask the following. Does the extended upper deck on the 748i make it more difficult to come up with an conversion program similar to the 744BCF? If not, then it maybe harder to come up with such a conversion program.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 18):
Certainly an interesting thought (PanAm_DC10). However, there is one thing to consider in regards to the 748i: slot availability. The current -8F orders should already cover most of the first 2-3 years of production, which should make it harder by the day to place any (large) -8i orders. Just a thought.

Well the 748I won't be available until 2010, and Boeing or potential customers could be holding slots on the production line to accommodate 748I deliveries. If no orders happen, then Boeing can accelerate 748F deliveries, but the freight haulers themselves may not want their entire fleet delivered over a period of a few months and may themselves prefer a more leisurely delivery schedule which leaves openings for Boeing to slot in 748Is.

Exactly, IIRC Atlas Air have the most 2010 slots booked firm but if you look at NCA their 8 frames start delivery from 2009 through to 2012 with the options covering 2011 through 2014.

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 25):
Does the extended upper deck on the 748i make it more difficult to come up with an conversion program similar to the 744BCF?

I don't think so. The fuse plug that extends the 748i is placed behind on the door on upper deck. After reading other members comments about the modifications on the 744BCF, it seems like the floor behind the door on the upper deck is moved up, to increase the height of a larger part of the main deck. Since the door is in the same position (the same distance from the cockpit that is) on the 748i as on the 744, that shouldn't make it more difficult to convert it into a 748BCF.
What might become a problem is if an airline utilizes the crown on the 748i, which would require strengthening the roof above the main deck. If those modifications to the structure is extensive, that _might_ make a conversion more difficult.
But hey, I'm no structural engineer working for Boeing, I could be wrong about the last part bouncy 
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:30 pm

50 orders is an impressive achievement especially when you consider how much longer the A380F has been available for sale. The 747-8F vs. A380F is begining to look like the 787 vs. A350 battle, rather one sided in Boeing's favor. The 747 is still the freighter of choice. It isn't the biggest, can't fly the farthest but it just gets the job done.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:38 pm

Oh with AirBridge ordering this, that means for sure NGO will see 748s. I won't see A380s unless its a diversion or UPS Cargo. Seeing a new Large aircraft besides the LCF will be nice.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 24):
The moving line still has TONS of rigs and stuff all over the aircraft just has a self powered tow that follows a white line on the floor via optics.

Merely for purposes of illustration:



RENTON, Wash., Aug. 15, 2002 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] this week began assembling 757s on a moving assembly line in its Renton, Wash. factory. Commercial Airplanes' 737 and 757 Vice President-General Manager Carolyn Corvi and 757 Manufacturing Director Larry Loftis applauded as 757 Functional Test Supervisor Larry Mullins started the 757 moving line.

The moving line method moves an airplane 24 feet a day through the final assembly stage. The 100-ton jetliners are pulled by an automatic self-guided tug, the same device being used by the 737 moving line...[emphasis added]

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...02/photorelease/q3/pr_020815g.html



737 Moving Assembly Line

[Edited 2006-12-01 08:07:43]

[Edited 2006-12-01 08:09:39]

[Edited 2006-12-01 08:13:37]
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
Merely for purposes of illustration

Thanks for posting the pics... i don't know why i was having such a hard time finding them... lol

I beleive the "white line/track" is on the floor still... i'll have to look closely next time. The "tugs" i'm sure are around in less they put them to use on the 777 line.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Confirms my theory that if you need a big plane you order 748 for cargo and A388 for pax.

It tends to confirm half of your theory. It doesn't tend to either confirm or refute the other half. Since very large passenger aircraft have not been selling in statistically significant numbers since the B747-8 SuperJumbo was introduced, no conclusion can be reached about which VLA airlines would buy if they were buying.
 
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:17 am

Courtesy of Flight International;

Russian carrier aims to expand fleet as it bids to cement position in freighter market

AirBridge Cargo (ABC) is finalising a deal to acquire Boeing 747-8 Freighters to supplement its existing fleet of all-cargo 747s.

The scheduled arm of Russian outsize cargo carrier Volga-Dnepr, which began operations in May 2004, operates three 747-200Fs and one 747-300SF.

Speaking to Flight International at the Institute of Economic Affairs' Air Cargo Seminar in London last week, ABC chief executive Stanley Wraight said that the carrier was negotiating a "multiple" aircraft order for 747-8Fs, after an evaluation that included the 777 Freighter. "We're in final negotiations," says Wraight. An order announcement is imminent, with deliveries due to begin in 2010.

"It will be a multiple aircraft order for sure, but it depends on Boeing's position and their ability to deliver the aircraft in the time slot that we want them," adds Wraight


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ised+to+sign+deal+for+747-8Fs.html

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:38 am

"ABC is taking two more 747-200Fs and the first of two new-build 747-400ERFs next year, with the second aircraft following in February 2008. But Wraight says that a third 747-400ERF is to be added to this order for delivery in April 2008."
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ised+to+sign+deal+for+747-8Fs.html

I found this VERY interesting as they are NOT taking orders for -400's anymore and they only had ordered two to begin with. How would they be adding a 3rd one that late?

Great news whatever it is... and another sale for the 748F.
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 33):
How would they be adding a 3rd one that late?

Guggenheim Aviation Partners should have 1 free 744ERF available, the other 2 they are getting via GECAS

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 34):
Guggenheim Aviation Partners should have 1 free 744ERF available, the other 2 they are getting via GECAS

I see the order from GECAS on 10/27/2005 for 2 x 744ERF.
Guggenheim has 6 unfilled 744ERF orders. Assuming 1 is for ABC... who are the other 5 for?
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 35):
Guggenheim has 6 unfilled 744ERF orders. Assuming 1 is for ABC... who are the other 5 for?

Just going from memory they are for the following and one has taken a 3rd but I can't recall which.

2 x Bluebird Cargo
2 x TNT Cargo

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 36):

Thanks.  Smile
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 36):
Just going from memory they are for the following and one has taken a 3rd but I can't recall which.

2 x Bluebird Cargo
2 x TNT Cargo

I believe KLM has contracted for one of Guggenheim's as well. This would mean that neither of the two above are getting a third frame, or ABC will have to look elsewhere for their aircraft.

Regards,

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 37):
Thanks.

No, thank Hamlet69, he is correct. I checked my records and TNT were to take a 3rd, but didn't. KLM indeed took the 5th 744ERF, though TNT sometimes contract their 744ERFs to KL. That said GAP still have 1 free for ABC.

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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 39):
No, thank Hamlet69, he is correct. I checked my records and TNT were to take a 3rd, but didn't. KLM indeed took the 5th 744ERF, though TNT sometimes contract their 744ERFs to KL. That said GAP still have 1 free for ABC.

Well there we go. Thanks Hamlet! PanAm...  Smile
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RE: AirBridge Cargo To Order B747-8F

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:10 pm

On the day this thread was posted 5 x 747-8F were booked as UFO now that Boeing have updated their website. Upon consideration, the publication which reported it, also reported the LH 748I order and were correct.

So in my opinion and after some consideration, I believe that AirBridge Cargo is the carrier behind the order for 5 x 747-8F booked on November 30 by ATI. They mentioned 2010 delivery, announcement imminent and 3 x TU 204s under consideration.

Subscriber only but I'd say this is the order http://www.rati.com

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible

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