md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:28 am

Hello all,

Since "Caribbean Aviation, Part 3.." was getting so long I have decided to start a whole thread!  duck 

We left off talking about the potential new Bahamasair 732 replacement order and talking about Caribbean Airlines.

But feel free to add any new news or updates or just your opinion on something related to the topic  Smile

I've also found the link from another thread to why VS is ending the NAS-LGW service  Sad

http://www.bahamasb2b.com/news/story...Suspends-Direct-Flights-To-Bahamas

Also whatever happened to the Haitian airline starting up with leased MD-80s?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
BWIA 772
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:33 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:48 pm

The more things change the more they remain the same. Based on the FI article it seems as if Caribbean Airlines is going to compete with the new merged entity that would be formed from LI/8B. Now while this is good for the consumer one of the one hand it is the same consumer whose tax dollars are pumped into these carriers when they fail. I wonder if after all of this work they are going to end back at square one.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+Boeing+737-800+in+new+livery.html
Eagles Soar!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 1):
Based on the FI article it seems as if Caribbean Airlines is going to compete with the new merged entity that would be formed from LI/8B. Now while this is good for the consumer one of the one hand it is the same consumer whose tax dollars are pumped into these carriers when they fail. I wonder if after all of this work they are going to end back at square one.

I don't get this at all. I was envisioning a Caribbean Airlines jet service to major caribbean airports and international destination, while a LI/8B regional service, and hub feeder. Davies better know what he doing witht hem 737s as they are not as ecnomical as Dash 8, when in Dash 8 territory and really do serve different purposes.
There is something special about planes....
 
Inbound
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:55 am

that's where the Q400s will be coming in...
Maintain own separation with terrain!
 
beeweel15
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 2):
I don't get this at all. I was envisioning a Caribbean Airlines jet service to major caribbean airports and international destination, while a LI/8B regional service, and hub feeder. Davies better know what he doing witht hem 737s as they are not as ecnomical as Dash 8, when in Dash 8 territory and really do serve different purposes.

I hope he knows what he is doing also because from what I am seeing so far BW/Caribbean is looking more like a regional carrier. The LHR routes are already gone to BA. Although BW/Caribbean will code share I do have the feeling the the deal is lopsided with BA feeding Caribbean pax to filter through out the Caribbean. Also I read an article on the Trinidad Guardian where MR. Davies indicated if BA/BW/Caribbean were to split the LHR slots will not revert to BW/Caribbean.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 4):
Also I read an article on the Trinidad Guardian where MR. Davies indicated if BA/BW/Caribbean were to split the LHR slots will not revert to BW/Caribbean.

You have a link for that article?

Remember this is the early stages yet. We still have no idea what the new carrier that will emerge from LI/8B would look like.


Regards
Eagles Soar!
 
beeweel15
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 5):
You have a link for that article?

http://www.guardian.co.tt/bussguardian3.html

The article is located in the Business Guardian Section
Article Title - BA partnership mutually beneficial says airline by Luis Araujo
 
trintocan
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:52 am

Well, it is just 1 month left for BW now! One hopes and wonders that all will be well when the new Caribbean Airlines takes off on 1 January 2007.

It makes little sense to have Caribbean Airlines competing with any merged or coordinated LI and 8B entity - certainly the cooperation between the 2 Dash 8 operators would be providing a perfect opportunity for a suitable partner for BW to handle the inter-island routes while BW took on the longer hops such as GEO, KIN and the North American services.

As for the LHR slots, consider those gone to BA. BA has basically hedged its entire future on its LHR operations and has tried various means to obtain slots from other airlines which have decided to stop flying to LHR by whatever means. When, for example, Lithuanian decided to drop LHR some years ago a deal was struck by which that airline started flying from LGW and BA got the LHR slots. While the slots are meant to be returned to a pool to be allocated by the BAA a "sweetheart" deal may get around this. The thing is that Caribbean Airlines could have only held on to the slots were BA to have flown its POS and BGI services from LHR but, of course, BA has done its Carib runs from LGW for more than 20 years. BA would use the slots for routes it considers more profitable and as such Caribbean Airlines would have to fly from LGW should it decide to resume its own metal services from London in the future.

TrinToCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
A388
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 7):
It makes little sense to have Caribbean Airlines competing with any merged or coordinated LI and 8B entity - certainly the cooperation between the 2 Dash 8 operators would be providing a perfect opportunity for a suitable partner for BW to handle the inter-island routes while BW took on the longer hops such as GEO, KIN and the North American services.

Agreed. I don't understand how these (or any other Caribbean airline) have the same mentality of competing against each other in such a small market. Look at most of the worldwide airlines, they all have created alliances that span the globe. Why? Because they need to in order to remain in the markets. Why would Caribbean Airlines compete against LIAT/Caribbean Star while these airlines can feed each other very well in improve their profitability.

As I've also said numerous times, we need consolidation in the Caribbean because operating individually will only hurt these airlines instead of improving the air connections. Joining forces is the best way to stay competitive against airlines like AA, US and DL who are invading the Caribbean. As much as I like AA, US, DL or any other airline, I also think that Caribbean airlines should start looking at joining forces before we read about yet another sad bankrupcy of a Caribbean airline because they wanted to compete on their own instead of co-operating (creating "economies of scale" here in the Caribbean).

A388
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:56 pm

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/magaz...TO_US_____MILLION_COST_SAVINGS.asp

The above link is an article about JM efforts to save US 100M. The switch from the Airbuses to 757s and 737s is estimated to take two years and see the airline saving up to US 45M.

Also JM CEO has called the airline's pilots irresponsible about the safety concerns they raised about the acquisition of the 733s. He also seemed to have blames the Butch led management team for some of the current problems.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/magaz..._AIR_J_PILOTS_AS_IRRESPONSIBLE.asp
Eagles Soar!
 
captaink
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 9):
Also JM CEO has called the airline's pilots irresponsible about the safety concerns they raised about the acquisition of the 733s. He also seemed to have blames the Butch led management team for some of the current problems.

Interesting plans they have. I am still wondering whats to take place with the widebody fleet. Initial rumours stated T7s, I later heard 767s, and when and if sourced. In light of the fact that the narrowbody fleet is looking at cost effective solutioin, I see the 767s replacing the A340.

This article should also be posted in the Air Jamaica thread that was started discussing precisly all this.
There is something special about planes....
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:48 pm

I think the next couple of weeks should be interesting especailly down in the south east.

'CA' may have to go back to the drawing board with its regional ambitions. Reasons
1) LI/8B this merged carrier will have LI brand loyalty something that is not to be estimated, it will have a better knowledge of the market than BW and more experience.

2) This is perhaps more important. The shareholder governments of LI are not going to sit idily by and allow the current market conditions to return. They may also be some political fall out if 'CA' does launch a regional arm as it was the POS government that called off the BW/LI merger talks.
Eagles Soar!
 
md90fan
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Inbound (Reply 3):
that's where the Q400s will be coming in...

Actually to this date I'm surprised that the Q400 has no orders from the Caribbean. The Q400's performance is ideal for the Caribbean.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 9):
Also JM CEO has called the airline's pilots irresponsible about the safety concerns they raised about the acquisition of the 733s. He also seemed to have blames the Butch led management team for some of the current problems

Gotta love tha Caribbean  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Captaink (Reply 10):
Interesting plans they have. I am still wondering whats to take place with the widebody fleet. Initial rumours stated T7s, I later heard 767s, and when and if sourced. In light of the fact that the narrowbody fleet is looking at cost effective solution, I see the 767s replacing the A340.

767s, from where?
IMO they should pick up some of U2's 733 if any are left, and for 767s they could get some of KLM's or EVA Air's since those airlines are withdrawing them.
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
captaink
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12):

Good ideas. I guess it is a waiting game for Caribbean Airlines though. The CEO did say that within a few months Caribbean Airlines can be a bigger airline that the current BWIA. Lets see.

Why was the Caribbean Airlines photo removed from the database?
There is something special about planes....
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12):
Actually to this date I'm surprised that the Q400 has no orders from the Caribbean. The Q400's performance is ideal for the Caribbean.

I think that LI did not have enough money to get them. I think they will be gracing the skies soon. For LI the would be good for their hub to hub flights between ANU BGI and POS. They will also be popular on the BGI GEO runs.

Beweel15

You have support in your cause for bringing back the pan on the plane.
http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,48571.html

[Edited 2006-12-02 21:46:53]
Eagles Soar!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 14):
You have support in your cause for bringing back the pan on the plane.

I think they spoke up a bit too late.
There is something special about planes....
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:49 am

Captaink

I agree but I think the call for keeping the pan in the logo is a waste of time. Yes the current BW livery is unique but many people even on this forum do not have a clue of what the livery is about.

I think that steel pan music can be brought into the Caribbean Airlines brand without it being in the livery. The jingle in their ads can feature pan music and if they do this it would be nice if it is done in a creative way. As I said before they can play pan music when they are boarding passengers etc. One of the audio channels can be dedicated to caribbean music and the indiegnous music of the region can be featured.

By doing things like these it is quite possible for the steel pan to beome more prominent in the Caribbean Airlines brand than it was for the BW brand.

Regards
Eagles Soar!
 
beeweel15
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 16):
As I said before they can play pan music when they are boarding passengers etc.

Already done.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 16):
One of the audio channels can be dedicated to caribbean music and the indiegnous music of the region can be featured.

Also already done.

BWIA772 alot of what you said in your last post points back to the lack of advertising in BW. As I said an add coming on at 1am - 3am period is not a good time to advertise. JM as I have said has numerous add through out the day and during prime time when a lot of folks be watching TV. At the times BW's adds come across most folks are watching premium channels. Asdditionally JM has many billboard adds across the city.

IF BW had a revamped marketing department their foutunes might not have been as bad. I had made a post on another topic about BA and VS using the UK Flags on the Tails of their aircraft and you can see where I was coming from.
 
trintocan
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:19 am

Captaink, one wonders whether the photo was requested to be removed by the photographer. In that sort of case the photo-moderators have no choice but to do so.

On the other major issue, that of advertising of the new Caribbean Airlines, promotion is very necessary to enable the airline to gain market share and secure its future. The bad reputation of BW (especially if one visits websites like Airline Quality) meant that keeping the name would have been seriously injurious in the long run.

Dash 8 Q400s are quite possible once LI and 8B join forces as they could beef up capacity on the mjor routes in the region and enhance consolidation of the airlines' networks.

TrinToCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
BWIA 772
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Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:33 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 17):
Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 16):
As I said before they can play pan music when they are boarding passengers etc.

Already done.

I do not know when last you travelled BW but at least for the past 6 years I have not got on one BW flight and hear pan music playing as we boarded the aircraft.

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 17):
IF BW had a revamped marketing department their foutunes might not have been as bad.

Marketing does not exist in a vaccum it is dependent on other functions with in the organisation to be successful. It is ok for a company to have a great marketing department that comes up with a successful marketing campaign that increases business. However if you have crappy customer service and/or product the effectiveness of the marketing campaign would have been negated.

Marketing is basically about getting the customer into the door once they come through the door you have to get them to buy something and provide such a good product and or service that they would want to come back.
BW has not been able to do these 3 things effectively. It has not been able to them for a while.
Eagles Soar!
 
beeweel15
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 19):
do not know when last you travelled BW but at least for the past 6 years I have not got on one BW flight and hear pan music playing as we boarded the aircraft.

Well I have been on the planes to speak to some of my friends who work the flights when the aircraft is at JFK and there was a varity of calypso, soca and pan music being played. Then again it might have been so low that when everyone is onboard and chatting it was drowned out. And believe me it happens on other aircraft I have been on.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 19):
Marketing does not exist in a vaccum it is dependent on other functions with in the organisation to be successful.

True it does not exist in a vacucum but for many years it was indicated to the various managements that that was an area that needed to be improved. To break it down BW's inflight, although not the best, could hold its own against many carriers. Frontline staff major changes were need there cause there was a great dont care attitude amoung many of the staff that reflected towards the customers. Now dont get me wrong you did have those that went above and beyond to put the customer first but they were few and far between at BW. Now from what currently see at JFK BW staff, although contracted, have the worst uniforms. When next to VS, who's staff is also contracted, it is like night and day when the two carriers are checking in next to each other.
 
westindian425
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:08 am

This is off-topic, but what's this about a terror threat on BWIA in Guyana?

http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,48601.html
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:42 am

Things like uniforms and liveries are necessary but mean nothing when the service you provide is crap. BW has a very nice livery but a nice livery does not make a good airline. Nice uniforms will not detract the customer from bad service provided. Ugly uniforms will not stop a customer from returning the service provided is good.
Eagles Soar!
 
A388
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 22):
Things like uniforms and liveries are necessary but mean nothing when the service you provide is crap. BW has a very nice livery but a nice livery does not make a good airline. Nice uniforms will not detract the customer from bad service provided. Ugly uniforms will not stop a customer from returning the service provided is good.

 checkmark  You are absolutely right  Smile

P.S. I have my first Caribbean Star Airlines photo in the screening qeue. It is the first time I have seen this airline and I like the livery. At last I feel like CUR is finally getting more Caribbean connections. It may sound weird but I never got the same Caribbean feeling here in CUR as I did in SXM when looking at all the Caribbean airlines flying to SXM the entire day. It gives you a nicer feeling when your island is connected to the other islands in my opinion. With Caribbean Star Airlines now flying to/from CUR it gives us here a chance to experience the other Caribbean islands as well. CUR is very different than the Leeward Islands as we have more Spanish/South American influences because of Venezuela, Colombia and the Dominican Republic.

Welcome to CUR Caribbean Star Airlines!!!!  bouncy 

A388 Big grin
 
NASBWI
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12):
Actually to this date I'm surprised that the Q400 has no orders from the Caribbean. The Q400's performance is ideal for the Caribbean.

In some ways, yes. But in others, no. Take the Bahamas for example. At first glance, the Dash 8 seems ideal for operations there. But after talking with a Bahamasair pilot about it (a while ago now), he mentioned that even the -300s can be an economic handful. Only seasonally are their flights full - and only to a handful of UP's destinations. Nassau - Mayaguana, for instance, or Inagua, or Crooked Island/Acklins, almost never sees profit-making loads. It's just too big an aircraft for those airports they serve; not to mention that costs of operating aircraft in countries like the Bahamas are much higher than operating the same aircraft in the US or Canada.

This is why airlines like Sky Unlimited, Southern Air Charter, and Western Air operate contracts for Bahamasair for reduced capacity. Recently, UP reinstated service to San Andros and Andros Town - with 9 customers onboard a Dash (Western Air already takes care of much of the market). With loads like that, I can't forsee UP operating Q400s anytime soon. With the exception of Freeport, Eleuthera, Abaco, and Central Florida, Bahamasair doesn't have much more need for 50+ seaters.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
md90fan
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 24):

True, point taken.

I remember a few years back when UP was outsourcing alot of the smaller destinations to Western/Andros Air. UP shouldn't have to serve these destinations that are loss making IMO, they are perfectly served by the competition's Beeches or Metros.

Also IMO Q400s would be good for expansion to other islands or at least to up-gauge some of the regional destinations.

Also I think Long Island can support a 70-seater especially since Stella Maris got shut down  bigthumbsup 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
NASBWI
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 25):
Also IMO Q400s would be good for expansion to other islands or at least to up-gauge some of the regional destinations.

What other islands? UP already serves most (if not all) the islands that have runways capable of handling a Dash. If anything at all, the Q400 could be used to replace the 737-200s on the FPO and MIA routes. FLL should just be a -300 destination, with increased frequency during holidays. Better aircraft utilization that way; as it is, I've seen too many UP planes sitting pretty on the tarmac at NAS whenever I've been down to visit.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 25):
Also I think Long Island can support a 70-seater especially since Stella Maris got shut down

I thought UP only served Deadman's Cay anyway...or maybe Stella Maris was seasonal (or a connecting flight).
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
TransIsland
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:16 am

I'm not getting into the Q400 debate again, I gave my $0.02 in thread #3.

Anyway, this is in the Bahama Journal, title: "Bahamasair Losses Mount"

http://www.jonesbahamas.com/?c=45&a=10777

I just hope that the government allowing smaller carriers to compete with UP by offering scheduled service, we won't be compromising safety.... ah, who am I kidding! The Dept. of Civil Aviation doesn't care, and as long as those smaller carriers don't try and fly to the U.S., there won't be anybody forcing them to meet any safety standards. Sad, but true.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:41 am

On a sad note, CM long awaited POS service, which was due to start Jul 06 and then postponed for Dec 15, seem to be delayed yet another time.  Sad
CM reservations is saying that the T&T government has not issued the proper authorizations allowing CM to serve POS.
How much of this is true, I really don't know, but from the Panamanian side they were blaming T&T for the visa requirement for Panamanian nationals as another reason why the POS service had been posponed. Panamanians frequently arriving in POS have told me that the T&T visa is issued upon arrival for them and they don't need it before flying to T&T.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 28):
On a sad note, CM long awaited POS service, which was due to start Jul 06 and then postponed for Dec 15, seem to be delayed yet another time.

There goes my MEX/PTY/POS/GND going home idea.

In other news, last night Barbados witnessed the arrival of the first A340-600 to their soil. GVYOU Virgin Atlantic bird touched down around 8:30pm.

Apparantly eveyone was amazed at its length. Big grin
There is something special about planes....
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 26):
What other islands?

Not domestic destinations NASBWI, but rather increase frequencies to T&C, HAV,SDQ, Jamaica. They could use the surplus planes to add more destinations such as PAP and more Family Island-Florida flights.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 26):
I thought UP only served Deadman's Cay anyway...or maybe Stella Maris was seasonal (or a connecting flight).

No it last year when I took the flight it went NAS-Stella Maris-Deadman's Cay. Earlier this year Stella Maris airport was closed for repairs and it the flight just went to Deadman's Cay.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 27):
I just hope that the government allowing smaller carriers to compete with UP by offering scheduled service, we won't be compromising safety.... ah, who am I kidding! The Dept. of Civil Aviation doesn't care, and as long as those smaller carriers don't try and fly to the U.S., there won't be anybody forcing them to meet any safety standards. Sad, but true.

Believe or not unless UP gets its act together the legion of smaller airlines led by Western Air, SkyBahamas, Andros Air, Pineapple Air and LeAir will be eating UP's lunch  wink 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:44 am

Latest out of BGI is that the merged Caribbean Star and LIAT will start flights BGI/JFK shortly. That is according to the Minister of Tourism there.
I suggest that from Canada, which will not have a direct flight from Caribbean Airways that we ask West Jet to fly in to BGI, as it will give A.C competition. If A.C doesn't have that competition they will charge very high prices, as happened back in the 70's and 80's. Barbados Canadian tourism is already suffering from the drop off in pax there. AC has cut it's flights to BGI by 4 a week starting Dec 15th
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
2travel2know
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Captaink (Reply 29):
There goes my MEX/PTY/POS/GND going home idea.

That would have been great as far as you don't mind overnight @ POS before and after your GND flight. Maybe on the westbound, if there's a very early GND-POS you woudn't need to spend the night in Port of Spain.
CM POS flight is great for POS, lousy for connections to/fr other islands and GEO/PBM.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 32):

That would have been great as far as you don't mind overnight @ POS before and after your GND flight. Maybe on the westbound, if there's a very early GND-POS you woudn't need to spend the night in Port of Spain.
CM POS flight is great for POS, lousy for connections to/fr other islands and GEO/PBM.

Overnight in POS is no problem, I would as if I am home already being in Trinidad. But depends on the timing of the flights, there are lots of flights between POS and GND, I should be fine.
There is something special about planes....
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:35 am

PanAmOldDC8

The Tourism Minister noted that the new carrier should be flying by the end of this year and it was a possibility that it could start flying US routes.

He also noted that BGI would not be affected by Caribbean Airlines' decision to pull out of direct flights between North American continent and BGI.

I heard most of what he said on the raido yesterday and he stated that AC was going to launch a double YYZ BGI service. That the code share agreement with BA and Caribbean Airlines will result in 3 extra BA LGW services to BGI. He also stated that the government was in negotiations with a Caribbean carrier to launch a route to Southern part of the US. My guess is IAH and it is a toss up between Caribbean Airlines and JM.

Please see the below link
http://www.cbc.bb/content/view/8604/10/
Regards
BWIA 772
Eagles Soar!
 
BWIA 772
Posts: 1613
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RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:14 pm

Below is a link to article in which BWIA chairman defends sale of LHR slots after the opposition member of parliament in POS objected to the sale. Please note that the link is valid for one day only
http://guardian.co.tt/business1.html
Eagles Soar!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 35):

Bachanal in Trinidad boy.. Big grin

The LHR slots were valuable, but I guess they didn't quite fit into the Caribbean Airlines plan for the time being. If the expansion going on at LHR would result in more slots being available, maybe we (BW) can get back into LHR. Or maybe LGW would be just fine, and we don't need LHR at all. I would only accept the later if I see that Davies plan for Caribbean Airlines is successful and that within the next few years, Caribbean Airlines becomes a major player in the region, and force to be reckoned with on all international routes it serves.

Saludos
kerry
There is something special about planes....
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 34):
heard most of what he said on the raido yesterday and he stated that AC was going to launch a double YYZ BGI service. That the code share agreement with BA and Caribbean Airlines will result in 3 extra BA LGW services to BGI. He also stated that the government was in negotiations with a Caribbean carrier to launch a route to Southern part of the US. My guess is IAH and it is a toss up between Caribbean Airlines and JM.

I have just checked the AC website and they have one flight day to BGI except Sat and Sun when they have 2 using the 767 and the 319 on weekends. AC is not going to fly empty areoplanes considering they have just reorganised.There is a rumor floating around Bim that the LIAT/Caribbean Star are looking at a CRJ to do the JFK/BGI run
Last year AC had 2 flights a day to BGI but pulled them due to lack of revenue and came up with the present formula.
BWIA lost money on the YYZ BGI route and that is why they started going thru MIA as well. I think that the pulling of BWIA from YYZ is going to hurt the BGI load factor. Canadians in the last few years have been going to Cuba, due to the cost of Barbados. Having lived in Canada for the last 25 years, I know the Canadian market and have spoken to many TA and they will not use BGI due to the cost
That's my speel for now
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
Inbound
Posts: 614
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 7:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:53 am

a CRJ will never succeed on a BGI-JFK run.

I'm unfamiliar with Gatwick, is it connected to the underground like LHR is?
Maintain own separation with terrain!
 
BWIA 772
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:33 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:17 am

LOL @ CRJ rumor. If they said that they would be getting some EJs or some 733 it would give the rumor some credence.
Eagles Soar!
 
trintocan
Posts: 2725
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:06 am

Inbound, LGW is not connected to the Tube as it is far outside of central London (29 miles or about 44 km away to the South - South London is in any case relatively poorly served by the Tube). It does have the world's first airport railway station which is considered a major station by Network Rail, who operates it. From there one can get Gatwick Express trains directly to Victoria Station as well as commuter services to Victoria and Brighton operated by Southern. There are also trains to Reading by First Great Western, Thameslink (now also operated by First) trains to London Bridge, Kings Cross and on to Bedford and Virgin Cross Country services, again to Brighton and Reading and from the latter to the North of England. As such, LGW is actually better linked to the rail network than LHR. The trouble is that the Gatwick Express may disappear due to congestion on the rail lines to Victoria.

The airport express buses by National Express generally continue on from LHR to LGW, taking an extra hour to get there. Insofar, then, in terms of providing access to London, LGW is comparable to LHR. The problem is that LHR has more prestige as it is nearer to the city and gets more business traffic while LGW is often seen as London's holiday airport.

TrinToCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 40):
LGW is comparable to LHR. The problem is that LHR has more prestige as it is nearer to the city and gets more business traffic while LGW is often seen as London's holiday airport.

TrinToCan.

And I guess LHR is also much better for connections. Are BW passengers usually O&D or do they carry a lot of connecting passengers? From checking people GND/POS/LHR a few had onward connections out of LHR. What is the situation taking the entire flight 900 into consideration?
There is something special about planes....
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:27 pm

Quoting Inbound (Reply 38):
a CRJ will never succeed on a BGI-JFK run.

Ditto, I am waiting for the media to jump all over that  Silly


From the Bahamasair  Smile

Unfortunately UP will post an 18 million dollar loss this year, blaming most of it on the cost of fuel. We are know looking at new aircraft especially the 737-500/600(!) as reported in newspapers. The sale of UP will be put on hold  banghead . More family island destinations will be outsourced to the smaller airlines, also the load factor is 51%!

I guess we'll see..

I'm going to the Bahamas next week, you guys think I should do a trip report?


Cheers,
Devan
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
beeweel15
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:56 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 34):
That the code share agreement with BA and Caribbean Airlines will result in 3 extra BA LGW services to BGI

Just as I expected. Now how come BA can make money by adding flights and BW could not. Mind you they are not just extending current flights to Trinidad. BA got their wish to see the BW out of the way so they can expand in the region.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 36):
The LHR slots were valuable

Yes they were valuable but Mr. Davies gave them away for nothing. 5 million for slots that are worth 4 to 5 times that. Delta recent purchase of LHR slots from UA was 21million plus in the past many other airlines paid double digits for LHR slots. Davies SN Airlines got double digits for their slots from BA so why couldn't BW.

http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-12-07/news1.html

Some of the info I did confirm now BW was ripped off how embarrising.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 34):
He also noted that BGI would not be affected by Caribbean Airlines' decision to pull out of direct flights between North American continent and BGI.

YEs BGI would not suffer and never will cause of the strong tourism traffic to the island. Flights that continue to POS from BGI normally leave nearly empty and vice versa. So with BW out of the picture the others have their chance to expand.

Captaink, on Caribbean Airlines Arrives POS In New Livery, mentioned three key things - reduction in staff, finetuning of management, and serious marketing.

Mr. Davies should have concentrated on this rather than this hasty rush to shut down BW and start Caribbean. I am certain he could have made BW work as it is. The unions would have eventually broken and given the airline what it wanted. This whole thing stinks and it is sad folks dont see it. With 250million Plus Mr.Davies surley could have shaken up BW and made it a well oiled machine. Jet Blue started with less than that. Folks might say that this was done in the past but it was not. Yes new upper management came in but nothing was done to the lower part of the airline which basically remaind the same.

BW/Caribbean should be doing some serious marketing right now and nothing is being done. A lot of folks here think that people dont know the BW logo but they do and yes it has been mentioned that BW will be shutting down and being replaced by Caribbean and what routes are being dropped etc and nothing has been dont to conteract that what so ever and a lot of those folks are looking to other carriers.
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 43):
Just as I expected. Now how come BA can make money by adding flights and BW could not. Mind you they are not just extending current flights to Trinidad. BA got their wish to see the BW out of the way so they can expand in the region.

The problem with BWIA was they were carrying a lot of non paying pax, like Gov't Ministers etc. Flew them once and the whole F class was Politicans
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 42):
We are know looking at new aircraft especially the 737-500/600(!) as reported in newspapers. The sale of UP will be put on hold banghead .

Where did you find the bit about the 735/736? Especially the 736 would be a good plane for UP, not as good a fit as the A318, IMHO, but better than what they've got now, and much better than any ERJs.

As far as the sale of UP is concerned. You can only sell an airline if you have one. Right now, I'm not sure what UP is, but it ain't no airline.

If somebody were to by it now, and suddenly the laws of a free market applied to UP, the consequences for its employees but also for those parts of the country that still rely on UP for connecting them to the capital, would be disastrous.

In the long run, I am all for the privatisation of UP (while strongly opposed to the privatisation of BEC & BTC), but the government may have to start subsidising routes - and I don't think they've realised that as yet.

On the other hand, the Department of Civil Aviation needs to pay closer attention to all these little airlines, for some of them have no maintenance. When both Western Air and Southern Air were grounded for the shortest of times, it was due to popular pressure that the government caved in - and interfered with the Department of Civil Aviation. After all, enforcing laws should not be a political question.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):
Where did you find the bit about the 735/736?

736/736 link

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):
Especially the 736 would be a good plane for UP

Well actually anything would be better than the 732s right now. Unfortunately new aircrafts are not the key to better loads IMO.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 45):
As far as the sale of UP is concerned. You can only sell an airline if you have one. Right now, I'm not sure what UP is, but it ain't no airline.

Yeah, UP is in a coma  wink 

Also for the holiday season, UP will lease in several freighters to cope with the increase in cargo. LOL they said some people bring "14 or 15 bags"  rotfl 

freighter link

Cheers,
Devan
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 46):

There is one positive note, Bahamians fly their airline. UP really needs to capitalize on that and prove them a good service. Even though the Bahamas/South Florida flights are short, cargo is obviously a major factor, and possible a great source of revenue for UP. the B737-500/600 can be good replacement, as they are not known to have great range, but the flights are going to be short, and UP can maximise on the MTOW available on those types.

[Edited 2006-12-09 19:17:52]
There is something special about planes....
 
beeweel15
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 44):
The problem with BWIA was they were carrying a lot of non paying pax, like Gov't Ministers etc. Flew them once and the whole F class was Politicans



Maybe that particular flight you was on there were people going to convention or something in Europe or else where. BW picked up most pax from other islands enroute to LHR. The section from POS was always wide open.
 
A388
Posts: 7159
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Caribbean Aviation, Part 4...

Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Beeweel15 (Reply 48):
BW picked up most pax from other islands enroute to LHR.

So BW was more reliant on Caribbean nationals on the London route instead of other connecting passengers from LHR? I have a feeling this is the case and if so than losing the LHR slots doesn't have to be dramatic or a bad decision afterall. LHR is very attractive because of its connecting possibilities but did BW really need this connecting possibility? I always thaught London was flown by BW because of Caribbean people flying from the U.K. to the Caribbean and a minority of European people to the Caribbean as Europeans tend to take European charter airlines such as First Choice, MyTravel, Thomas Cook, LTU and such airlines for their flights from Europe to the Caribbean.

A388

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