CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:16 pm

Earlier, there was a post claiming that SIA is only interested in buying the 747-8I if the A380 fails to come to market. Here is another article that actually states the opposite. It seems that both the 777-200LR and 747-8I are of interest.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=7208
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
w3ndytj4n
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:45 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:22 pm

Wow, will SQ be the launch customer for 748i?

w3ndy
Wendy Tjan
 
mrcomet
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:53 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 1):
Wow, will SQ be the launch customer for 748i?

Doesn't sound likely. It confirms that the 748 has not been accepted becuase of the old Boeing problem of high airplane costs. These problems are very questionable considering Boeings annual profit from its aircraft division.

Airbus has no such reservations yet still (until this quarter) reports OK earnings. It seems like this opens the door for Airbus to beat BAC soundly by continually undercutting them on price until they can get competitive models on the 787 and 777. Boeing seems headed toward destroying their competitive advantage with a new, like all American companies, for obscene profits.
The dude abides
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3183
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
It seems like this opens the door for Airbus to beat BAC soundly by continually undercutting them on price until they can get competitive models on the 787 and 777. Boeing seems headed toward destroying their competitive advantage with a new, like all American companies, for obscene profits.

Wow!! That's a lot to read into a relatively short, simple article.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:53 pm

Sounds like there's a poker game going on - Mr. Chew just raised the stakes and Boeing is content to 'see' him, but not 'call 'him yet...........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:03 pm

Quote:
Speaking to media in Seattle, he said an order for the dash 200LR is up to "Scott and Stan,"

Now that's interesting. It sounds like SQ wants the -200LR and an order is not that far away.

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:11 pm

"and hinted that the airline even may take another look at the 747-8I."

Indeed this phrase indicates that they haven't ruled out the 748i. But it's very carefully put... More like "let's enjoy the spotlights and not spoil today's party".
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:59 pm

I think the article highlights the fact that SIA has not made a decision on either the -200LR or the 8I. I posted this clipping because the previous SIA post was firmly against the 8I. It would seem that the 747 has not been ruled out but has not been chosen yet either.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13747
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
It confirms that the 748 has not been accepted becuase of the old Boeing problem of high airplane costs.

Or the even older problem of SQ being very shrewd negotiators.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Sounds like there's a poker game going on - Mr. Chew just raised the stakes and Boeing is content to 'see' him, but not 'call 'him yet...........

 checkmark 

There's no hurry on either side to make a deal. The 747-8 is doing fine selling freighters, and SQ is taking in lots of A380s in the near future.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 1):
Boeing seems headed toward destroying their competitive advantage with a new, like all American companies, for obscene profits.

Doesn't sound likely. It confirms that the 748 has not been accepted becuase of the old Boeing problem of high airplane costs. These problems are very questionable considering Boeings annual profit from its aircraft division.

That's a pretty strong statement there. Regarding prices, both A and B have high sticker prices, yet generally always wind up negotiating lower prices with their customers. To remark that Boeing always has higher prices and is greedily addicted to fat profits while Airbus offers fare prices is a ridiculous statement.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting SafetyDude (Reply 5):
It sounds like SQ wants the -200LR and an order is not that far away.

SQ is probably hedging their bets. They waited too long to order the 787 for their regional 777 fleet replacement and now they have to short-lease A330s to cover the delay.

They're going to have to replace some of their long-haul 777s before the A350XWB is available. At that point, they will have four choices available to them:

  • Order more 777-300ERs
  • Order the 777-200LR
  • Order the 787-10 (assuming it is available and can perform a 772ER's mission profile)
  • Order the A340-300 or A340-600


I believe #4 is a non-starter.

I believe #2 is going to depend on SQ keeping, if not expanding, their ULR services, because they could also replace their A345 fleet at the same time and work a large (30+ frame) deal with Boeing.

And I believe #1 and #3 are both the most likely options. SQ could use the 773s to both replace some 744s and increase luxury and capacity on some 772ER routes. And if the 787-10 is available and can perform a 772ER's mission profile, it's a natural add-on to SQ's 787-9 fleet.

Options 1-3 don't bode well for an A350XWB order, however, especially if Boeing gets aggressive with pricing on Options 1 and 2 to place large orders.

[Edited 2006-12-01 17:09:32]
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 1):
Wow, will SQ be the launch customer for 748i?

What seating could SQ put upstairs on a B747? Their new F seats would only fit in a 1-1 configuration. Same for their new C seats. In either case, the aisle would be more than a meter wide. That's not an efficient use of space. The new Y seats would fit 3-3 with a normal-sized aisle, but I'm not sure SQ would want to put Y passengers upstairs. Maybe.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
SQ is probably hedging their bets. They waited too long to order the 787 for their regional 777 fleet replacement and now they have to short-lease A330s to cover the delay.

They're going to have to replace some of their long-haul 777s before the A350XWB is available. At that point, they will have four choices available to them:


* Order more 777-300ERs
* Order the 777-200LR
* Order the 787-10 (assuming it is available and can perform a 772ER's mission profile)
* Order the A340-300 or A340-600



I believe #4 is a non-starter.

I believe #2 is going to depend on SQ keeping, if not expanding, their ULR services, because they could also replace their A345 fleet at the same time and work a large (30+ frame) deal with Boeing.

And I believe #1 and #3 are both the most likely options. SQ could use the 773s to both replace some 744s and increase luxury and capacity on some 772ER routes. And if the 787-10 is available and can perform a 772ER's mission profile, it's a natural add-on to SQ's 787-9 fleet.

Options 1-3 don't bode well for an A350XWB order, however, especially if Boeing gets aggressive with pricing on Options 1 and 2 to place large orders.

 checkmark 
The B787-10 will be able to perform all B777-200ER missions -- unless the airlines change their minds and accept the previously proposed 540,000 lbs version.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
Earlier, there was a post claiming that SIA is only interested in buying the 747-8I if the A380 fails to come to market. Here is another article that actually states the opposite. It seems that both the 777-200LR and 747-8I are of interest

Ordering and taking an interest (or considering) are different things. Don't make them to be what you want them to be. There are no contradictory statements here.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
What seating could SQ put upstairs on a B747? Their new F seats would only fit in a 1-1 configuration. Same for their new C seats. In either case, the aisle would be more than a meter wide.

They can use slanted configuration right?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
It seems like this opens the door for Airbus to beat BAC soundly by continually undercutting them on price until they can get competitive models on the 787 and 777

Undercutting only works for so long before you loose money. And the competitors to the 787 and 777 are still a long ways aways. There is very little incentive for an airline to wait that many years for a competitive product, unless the improvements over the competitor are significant.

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
and hinted that the airline even may take another look at the 747-8I.

I thought the most interesting point he said was that the 773ER beats the 744 so handily. So Boeing unwittingly provided a competitor to the 744, it wasn't necessarily the A380 that beat down the 744 passenger. Then the 748I has to be a little better than the 773ER for airlines to consider it. Sounds like a tough act to follow.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 13):
They can use slanted configuration right?

Even then, at three feet wide, it would still be 1+1 and would be pretty small in total (a dozen? a score?).
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Even then, at three feet wide, it would still be 1+1 and would be pretty small in total

I know that, you can squeeze more seats in though and lessen the 1 meter aisle loss as Zvezda suggested.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:13 am

I don't think Boeing was concerned about the 747-400 passenger series aircraft losing orders to their own 777-300ER. Obviously, the -300ER is going to be more efficient than the -400. The -400 was made in the mid 80s and rolled off the assembly line in 1989. The real game will be to see how the 747-8I compares to the 777-300ER. For that to take place, we actually need to have some pax versions ordered!

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 12):
Ordering and taking an interest (or considering) are different things. Don't make them to be what you want them to be. There are no contradictory statements here.

When did I say they were going to order them? All I'm doing is posting information that is going against a previously discussed topic. I thought it might be a good idea because other airliner forums with far more knowledgeable people were not discounting the 747-8I and -200LR like we were so handily.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
777-200LR

Possible for US routes .

Quoting CX747 (Thread starter):
747-8I

Just , if the 380 fails , this will never happen , Germany,france... would avoid this with money for Airbus . They have invested to much in this programm .
So I doubt we´ll see a SQ 748I .
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 13):
They can use slanted configuration right?

Huh??? What do you mean slanted? Do you mean a herringbone configuration like VS? Have you seen the new SQ seats?
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
. More like "let's enjoy the spotlights and not spoil today's party".

Like I said before, it's spoken during 777-300ER ceremony. It's either being diplomatic or they just haven't rule out yet.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:22 am

SQ always takes advantage of opportunities when planning its fleet......and its no surprise that they will continue to consider and evaluate the 772LR, 748I, variants of the 787 family, etc. And they will buy when the time is right and the prices and conditions are favorable. Does anyone really think that SQ has said to Boeing: we dont want 748s, regardless of what you are offering? I think not.

Also, there are many variables.......the A380 still has issues to be resolved, the A350/XWB has a lot of variables, SQ is still evaluating the ultra long haul business and whether there is real money to be made with these routes, the 787-10 is not yet an official airplane, and SQ does not want to get stuck with the 748I if it only sells in limited numbers for pax service as that will harm values on the second hand market. With 773ERs, 787-9 and A380s on firm order, and commitments for the A350 as well, SQ is taking some time to consider its next move.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Have you seen the new SQ seats?

Yes. Why don't you just explain yourself instead of just questioning people's knowledge.

I know the seat is square. The Business class seat however is not very long, and you can modify it a little bit to fit 1-1 herringbone configuration, with a place for the PTV. I am not interior design expert, But if SQ wants it, they can surely modify the seats to fit the 747 upper deck better if they have to.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:51 am

The SQ seat might be too heavy for the upper deck?
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
The SQ seat might be too heavy for the upper deck?



Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 22):


I know the seat is square. The Business class seat however is not very long, and you can modify it a little bit to fit 1-1 herringbone configuration, with a place for the PTV. I am not interior design expert, But if SQ wants it, they can surely modify the seats to fit the 747 upper deck better if they have to.

Cheers,
PP

Lets not get too focused on the new J class seat for the upper deck of a 748I......SQ could always put F and J class on the main level and utilize the upper deck for 3+3 Y class seating.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 22):
Why don't you just explain yourself instead of just questioning people's knowledge.

No offense intended. I just wanted to ensure we weren't talking past each other.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 22):
I know the seat is square. The Business class seat however is not very long, and you can modify it a little bit to fit 1-1 herringbone configuration, with a place for the PTV. I am not interior design expert, But if SQ wants it, they can surely modify the seats to fit the 747 upper deck better if they have to.

They would be rather different seats.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 24):
Lets not get too focused on the new J class seat for the upper deck of a 748I......SQ could always put F and J class on the main level and utilize the upper deck for 3+3 Y class seating.

Yes, it's possible, but I don't think SQ would be keen to do that. I can't offer any evidence; it's just my sense as a customer.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
and hinted that the airline even may take another look at the 747-8I.

Hmmm, the I or the F?  scratchchin 
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 26):
Hmmm, the I or the F?

I think I was very clear on that. Reread my post and answer your own question.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
Does anyone really think that SQ has said to Boeing: we dont want 748s, regardless of what you are offering?

Indeed that wouldn't make much sense. However there are other airlines wo did make silly remarks along these lines.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting W3ndytj4n (Reply 1):



Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
It seems like this opens the door for Airbus to beat BAC soundly by continually undercutting them on price until they can get competitive models on the 787 and 777. Boeing seems headed toward destroying their competitive advantage with a new, like all American companies, for obscene profits.

That is going to very tough for Airbus to do with the Euro's value so high over the Dollar (currently around $1.30= EU1.00, sorry, my keyboard does not have the Euro sign). Even though both Airbus and Boeing sell airplanes overseas in US Dollars, Airbus's balance sheet is still in Euros.

BTW, if Boeing's profits, for this year (and 2005) are "obscene", what do you call their huge losses during 1994-1997 and 2001-2003? I also won't paint "all American companies" with such a broad brush. There are many "European companies" in business to make money, too.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
Airbus has no such reservations yet still (until this quarter) reports OK earnings. It seems like this opens the door for Airbus to beat BAC soundly by continually undercutting them on price until they can get competitive models on the 787 and 777. Boeing seems headed toward destroying their competitive advantage with a new, like all American companies, for obscene profits.

You are joking of course! What the heck do you think Boeing is supposed to be in business for? MAKING MONEY!!! They have an obligation to their shareholders to make the most they can EVERYDAY! Unlike Airbus, Boeing cannot depend on Messrs. De Villepin and Chirac or whatever French, German and Spanish politician to bail them out. You are absolutely correct however!!! The only way that Airbus can compete is to drop their shorts!!!
 
thebry
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:12 am

Wow... 60 777s in their fleet!? I didn't realize they had that many. Of course, they're a predominantly Boeing carrier, so I shouldn't be so surprised.
 
PVG
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
Or the even older problem of SQ being very shrewd negotiators.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
They waited too long to order the 787 for their regional 777 fleet replacement and now they have to short-lease A330s to cover the delay.

Or the even older problem of thinking that because your name is SQ that everyone is going to kiss your butt and overplaying your hand because of it and then getting caught short when you've lost!
 
AvObserver
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:40 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):

I thought the most interesting point he said was that the 773ER beats the 744 so handily. So Boeing unwittingly provided a competitor to the 744, it wasn't necessarily the A380 that beat down the 744 passenger. Then the 748I has to be a little better than the 773ER for airlines to consider it. Sounds like a tough act to follow.

My thinking, as well. It would seem that although Boeing markets the 747-8I as a nominal A380 competitor, the -8I's worst competition is within Boeing, itself. The 777-300ER seems of late to be the biggest 747 killer around and is likely the main obstacle to launching the newest 747 passenger model. Although the -8I should be a fair leap in efficiency over the 744, it may still not surpass the newest 773ERs, which might be putting Boeing's efforts into selling its newest pax jumbo into a bit of a quandry.

McComet, you're really reaching with your speculations from that one flimsy article. Do they like to "pass the weed" around regularly in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Big grin Just kidding, man.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 32):
It would seem that although Boeing markets the 747-8I as a nominal A380 competitor, the -8I's worst competition is within Boeing, itself. The 777-300ER seems of late to be the biggest 747 killer around and...although the -8I should be a fair leap in efficiency over the 744, it may still not surpass the newest 773ERs, which might be putting Boeing's efforts into selling its newest pax jumbo into a bit of a quandary.

The 748 might have better CASM then the 773ER, however the 773ER might better be fitting the demand curve so what it gives up in CASM, it makes up for in RASM.
 
DJ748
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:16 pm

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Order the A340-300 or A340-600

When the MD-11 was in development, SQ originally had an order for them, but cancelled the order because of doubts about the performance of it. They then ordered the A340-300 and did operate them for a while. They may have been replaced by early 772's. I doubt if they will order any A340-600 as they already have a significant number of 777's in the fleet, and only QR and TG are the only airlines that are operating both 777 and A340-600 side by side. It doesn't make too much sense to operate both, unless SQ want to continue using the A340 with more premium seats, particularly knowing they have premium economy in the A345.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: SIA Door Open For 777-200LR And 747-8I.

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting DJ748 (Reply 34):
only QR and TG are the only airlines that are operating both 777 and A340-600 side by side.

QR has yet to take delivery of their first 777. Other then TG, CX also operates both aircraft.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 57echo, ACA033, aflyingkiwi, Bing [Bot], haydenschool, hoons90, LAX772LR, PlanesNTrains, sassiciai, tcaeyx and 239 guests