express1
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Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:15 pm

This is a update from Flight global.com

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ber+Gol-Legacy+collision+over.html

hope its of use


dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:27 pm

Interesting - now we can blame this terrible accident on a computer program glitch? This possibility also points out the limits of computers and their programs. Humans prepare these programs and many not recognize all of their potential flaws when put into use. Then that there is nothing like a human to be involved in real decisions and to make sure they are carried out properly. The communications blackout areas of Brazil where these aircraft were operating is also unacceptable and compounded the computer flaws.
Hopefully we learn from this accident that there are limits to computers and humans in ATC and we need to correct such weaknesses throughout the world.
 
express1
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):

Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

correct me if i'm wrong.

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:54 pm

... still doesn't explain why TCAS failed.
 
osiris30
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:31 am

@ltbewr:

Woah there partner easy on the computers and evil vibe, you'll use it all up.  Wink

I would wager the computers make far fewer mistakes than humans doing the same jobs. Look at autopilot system for example. I feel far better having the computer do the flying from A to B.

Computers don't get distracted, tired, cranky and rarely do they get sick. The problem isn't computers.

Now before I get lynched for saying that, I don't think it reasonable to have a computer only system. Computer systems do fail, just like their human counterparts. Having both is the best of both worlds.

Now onto what the problem is with computers... Software. Specifically software devlopment tools. I don't want to say methodologies, because there are plenty of theoretically strong design methodologies. As someone who has worked in the industry professionally for 15 years (yes I was a wizz kid in the glory days) I want to reinforce just how hard it is to do software well.

The root of the problem is in large complex projects (which even the simplist software has become thanks to feature creep and an ever growing set of expectations placed on it by endusers).

Unlike other forms of engineering, software just annot be simplified and compartmentalized as easily. Look at building an aircraft for example. Sure, that's hard too, but believe it or not, there are infinitely fewer variables. For example once youchose your material and its tolerances, you can relatively easily test for them (weight, strength, alloy content, etc). With software its never just 3 variables.

We are very quickly approaching (or maybe we have passed) the point where something new is going to have to be done from a fundamental perspective to aid software development. Projects today are just so complex no one person can visualize the entire system at a level that's reasonable detailed. Add to that clumnsy tools (imagine if you had to design an aircraft using only text. Or imagine design an aircraft and having a scope of vision 1 rivet hole wide. That's what us software guys have to deal with. We can see maybe 50 lines out of several million at one time)

Generally when we (humans) can't see the whole problem/project is when we make mistakes. Add to that the fact that software I'd driven via data, that once corrupted by one area of the software stays that way, well you get the idea. Back to my plane example, if someone makes a small mistake it can be compensated for elsewhere, or may not even be an issue in practical terms. The same isn't the case for software. We're right or wrong there. I guess its the binary nature of the beast.

Anyway just some food for thought. Admittedly a bit off topic and probably rife with typos as I'm posting from my blackberry while on my way to work (see computers ARE good  Wink )

Regards.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:57 am

So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
hardiwv
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Rgs,
 
cgagn
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Unecessary comment...

Rgs,

Maybe a little inappropriate, but it sure is starting to look like the truth as the investigation progresses.

C-GAGN
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AA54Heavy
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Rgs,

No unnecessary at all......the Brazillians detained the American pilots, and there was almost a revolt against them by the public/gov immediately blaming them and pointing the finger.......now it looks like there are other factors.......how odd....
Roger that, turning to our "other" left
 
LVTMB
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Unecessary comment...

Maybe I am missing something. Whay would you say that? From the onset of the investigation blaming fingers were pointed at the US pilots, even before the dust had cleared. They were actually detained and their passports confiscated (By the way, have they been released?) It is now becoming clearer that Brazilian air traffic control seems to have failed (either a controller, or the programing of a computer system or its design -- computers usually don't make mistakes by themselves). Wouldn't you agree?

By the way, where are those US pilots?

MB
 
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United787
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 8):
No unnecessary at all......the Brazillians detained the American pilots, and there was almost a revolt against them by the public/gov immediately blaming them and pointing the finger.......now it looks like there are other factors.......how odd....

Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
... still doesn't explain why TCAS failed.

Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

I don't think this clears the American pilots, but spreads the blame around.
 
hardiwv
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.



Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

100% Correct.

Rgs,
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Yes, but we still do not know why the Legacy's transponder was turned off, please correct me if I am wrong.



Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
Didn't the transponder being off also prevent TCAS from working.

The (American) pilots flying the Legacy have testified over and over that the transponder was not turned off; it's the Brazilian Air Force that suggested or theorized that the transponder had been turned off.

United787, a failure of the transponder would account for both of your comments. I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
777236ER
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new

Guess work to try and support a personal political point.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
andessmf
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Express1 (Reply 2):

Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

It's called engineering. Throughout history, there have been many engineering failures (the first pyramids come to mind), which then gives additional data to the engineers to correct those failures. That's why you always have those constant changes and improvements to an amazing array of products.

If you wait for a product to be almost fault free before its public introduction, you will never get the product to market. Witness Windows XP, how many corrections have been made since release? This is fairly typical.
 
access-air
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Express1 (Reply 2):
Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

Because unfortunately, we in all our technological advances are not clarvoiant enough to see every potential problem.....

You could say the same thing about why it took an Air Canada DC9-30 cathcing fire in 1983 and people dying to make a rule requiring exit row lighting.....

or any of the other hosts of regualtions that are made AFTER an accident...

Try reading some old full NTSB reports for the mid to late 60s and you will not believe the items or procedures they didnt have then but we do have now as standard regulations or equipment.....You will say to your self, "goodnes, why didnt they do this or that.....?"

Anyway, thats about all I have to say...

Access-Air
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Pyrex
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.).

Do medium/large planes usually have redundancy in the transponders (i.e. more than one device)?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
baron95
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 9):
By the way, where are those US pilots?

The Legacy pilots are staying at the J.W. Marriott hotel in Rio, and are still unable to leave the country as their passports were confiscated with no charges being filed against them to this date. I was also staying at that hotel on a business trip in October and it was a media circus upfront.

The US NTSB has issued a preliminary report on this accident (at the request of Brazilian investigators) and you can read the facts there in english.

Here is a summary. The flight plan did indeed call for altitude changes from FL370 to FL360 to FL380 while en route. The flight was CLEARED all the way to the destination at FL370 (which overides the flight plan altitudes). After passing Brazilia, the two planes were BOTH flying level at FL370 on the same airway, headed towards each other for almost ONE HOUR. For several minutes of that, the Legacy's transponder was reporting altitude to ATC as FL370. One controller asked the flight to ident and received the ident. The controller had only 3 airplanes on his sector.

The root cause of this accident is that ATC cleared both planes on the same altitude, same airway, same time, opostite directions.

They compounded their mistake by failing to correct the problem for close to ONE HOUR.

They missed multiple oportunities to do so, including a shift change briefing, where the controler briefed his replacement incorrectly that the Leagacy was at FL360.

All other factors, TCAS failures, temporary loss of secondary radar info (transponder) and temporary loss of comms are at best missed opportunities to correct the problem, but are NOT root causes.

Suggesting that the Legacy crew turned off it's transponder is ludicrous. It would be reccorded by the DFDR which that Brazilians have already analised.

Suggesting that it failed is not very probable, end if it did, why didn't ATC (NOT ONCE) got on the comms and asked them to reset transponder or switch to #2 transponder?

As for TCAS, I am very interested in why it failed to warn. My theory (weak one, I admit) is that with both airplanes converging at Mach 1.6, nearly head on and nearly at the same altitude (they were a few feet from perfect alignment), that the transponder antennas were blanketed by the fuselages and TCAS did not detect the oposing traffic.

What the Brazilians are doing, talking over and over about the LEgacy crew not following the Flight Plan altitudes and possibly turning off the transponder is a travesty.

Shame on them.
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RobertS975
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:35 am

There is another contributory factor in this accident besides the fact that two converging aircraft were both cleared to the same FL370. And that is the incredible damned accuracy of current Flight Management Systems that kept both aircraft tracking down the exact center of the airway, a bullet hitting a bullet so to speak. A few years ago, this would have likely been a scary near-miss (near-hit) as it would have been unlikely that each plane was tracking the airway centerline so accurately.

Air carrier pilots have discussed whether to deliberately offset the airway centerline by a quarter mile or so on their autopilots to avoid similar accidents.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Suggesting that it failed is not very probable, end if it did, why didn't ATC (NOT ONCE) got on the comms and asked them to reset transponder or switch to #2 transponder?

The link posted by the thread starter points out an issue with the software that would have been difficult for the controllers to notice irregularities in the flight level.

The preliminary report was 100% correct in stating that they need and were going to focus on ATC equipment and technical factors.

Placing blame on the controller before all facts are known is as bad as placing it on the pilots. Neither is more professional than the other.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):

What the Brazilians are doing, talking over and over about the LEgacy crew not following the Flight Plan altitudes and possibly turning off the transponder is a travesty.

Presuming guilt is a travesty. The Pilots and ATC attempted contact but were unable to due to comms failure.

Why did ATC not notice anything for such a long time? Read the link posted by the thread starter. That might be why.


In any case, the pilots should be able to go home.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:01 am

I'm guessing that an American company makes the disputed sofware. Watch and see. The Brazilian Air Force has so far been embarassingly self-protective about this tragedy, and they really need a diplomatic smack over this.
 
express1
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:38 am

well on reading all your replys,the same word comes up all the time,
we all learn by are mistakes.

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
LVTMB
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
All other factors, TCAS failures, temporary loss of secondary radar info (transponder) and temporary loss of comms are at best missed opportunities to correct the problem, but are NOT root causes.

Agree. They are contributing factors ....

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Placing blame on the controller before all facts are known is as bad as placing it on the pilots. Neither is more professional than the other.

Agree as well. But it is obvious that air traffic control failed. Not necessarily the failure of a controller, but certainly of ATC as a system. The simple statement is that ATC's goal or raison de etre is to ensure traffic separation. That goal was not accomplished.

MB
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 13):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new

Guess work to try and support a personal political point.

I don't understand your comment; please elaborate.

I've delivered many (10+) brand new airplanes and flown countless other new (less than a month old) airplanes. My experiences have taught me that new airplanes have "bugs," some big, some minor. I recall one acceptance inspection that our mechanics found four days (repair time) of mechanical discrepancies (before the acceptance flight test).

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 16):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.).

Do medium/large planes usually have redundancy in the transponders (i.e. more than one device)?

Good question. Yes, multiple transponders are the norm, however, I've never flown any aircraft where the failure of one automatically switched/reverted to the other.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
JAM747
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:42 am

All the different bits of info on this tragedy all point the one thing present in all aircraft accidents. That is, they are caused by a series of events not just by one single factor. Of course some factors might be more prevalent than some but I think the final report will show there were a number of factors involved.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 20):
I'm guessing that an American company makes the disputed sofware. Watch and see. The Brazilian Air Force has so far been embarassingly self-protective about this tragedy, and they really need a diplomatic smack over this.

It might be of Brazilian design. I don't know the extent of it but these softawares/instrumentations tend to be developed (at least in part) by Brazilian companies.

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 22):
Agree as well. But it is obvious that air traffic control failed. Not necessarily the failure of a controller, but certainly of ATC as a system. The simple statement is that ATC's goal or raison de etre is to ensure traffic separation. That goal was not accomplished.

No question.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
The link posted by the thread starter points out an issue with the software that would have been difficult for the controllers to notice irregularities in the flight level.

Without getting too technical, that issue ONLY comes into play while secondary (transponder) radar returns are not received. In that case the controller data block would read FL3?0=360, meaning (incorrectly) flight cleared to FL360, present altitude unavailable. For many many minutes after Brasilia the controller datablock was likely reading FL370=360, meaning flight cleared to 360 but flying 370. Any controller that was not asleep (mind you he had only a total of 3 targets on his sector), would get on the comms inquiring about altitude. When he asked the flight to ident he must have seen a bright glowing FL370=360 and still said nothing.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Placing blame on the controller before all facts are known is as bad as placing it on the pilots. Neither is more professional than the other.

First, unlike the Brazilian authorities, including the minister of defence, I did not place blame on anyone. If you read my comments I said that:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
The root cause of this accident is that ATC cleared both planes on the same altitude, same airway, same time, opostite directions.

Can you read? ROOT. CAUSE. ATC. Not fault blame. Not ONLY cause even. Just the ROOT CAUSE. Not the Controller. Just ATC, as in the ATC system, which includes the controller, the procedures, the training, the equipment, etc.

Stop being defensive every time a ROOT CAUSE points to the ATC system. There is little doubt that ATC cleared both planes to the same altitude and did nothing for almost an hour. Lets move on to understand why that happened and why TCAS fail to warn.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
Quoting Express1 (Reply 2):

Why do we wait until something like this happens and then correct the problem afterwards surely somebody should of known about the flew in the computer system by observing the systems behavior.

It's called engineering.

It's called tombstone technology. In the aviation world, changes are not implemented until lives are lost.

For example, two years before the Turkish DC-10 crash in 1974 that killed 346 people, an AA DC-10 encountered the same problem. The cargo door opened in flight. Because the AA DC-10 did not have the high density configuration it weighed significantly less. As a result, the cabin floor did not collapse and it landed safely. It was considered a rare incident and swept under the rug. Design changes were not ordered until the Turkish accident happened.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
maperrin
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:02 pm

Leaving in Brazil, I agree with 99% of what is being said. However, I have to inform that US pilots are in Brazil not because of Government or Air Force decisions. It has been a one judge decision. Judiciary is in charge of legal investigation, which is paralele to technical one. Gvt should not been taken responsible for keeping 2 persons (US or not) in private custody wherever it might be (even in a luxurious hotel in Copacabana beach). It would be illegal. A judge decided it, these pilots have lawyers, and only the Court may return their passports. Following timetable authorization for leaving Brazil should been given by the Court on Dec 13.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Unecessary comment...

Rgs,

Not at all. Completely appropriate, and accurate.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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glideslope
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 5):
So after immediately blaming the American pilots, maybe it's time to look into their own people and systems...

Yes sir. Won't make any difference though. Kicking Americans is in vogue these days.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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viasa
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:14 pm

Is the N600XL still at Cachimbo (SBCC)?
 
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litz
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
United787, a failure of the transponder would account for both of your comments. I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new.

They don't have to be new ... I was on a DL 757 earlier in the week and it arrived in ATL with a failed transponder (we had to wait to leave for TPA for it to be fixed) ... it had been working fine upon its original departure and failed enroute to ATL.

(now, the difference here is I think 757s have backup transponders, right?)

- litz
 
PPVRA
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 26):
Stop being defensive every time a ROOT CAUSE points to the ATC system. There is little doubt that ATC cleared both planes to the same altitude and did nothing for almost an hour. Lets move on to understand why that happened and why TCAS fail to warn.

Maybe there is a valid explanation as to why he didn't do anything? IFATCA seems to have a pretty good theory as to why that happened. And as they themselves state there is "no reminder" to the controller build in the system.

I still hold that xponder/TCAS, comms failure, and now I'll add this computer system issue to the causes I think caused this accident.

While the SJK clearance played an important role, it doesn't change the fact that other things happened and these could have avoided the situation yet they failed. It doesn't explain why the collision couldn't be avoided.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):

All other factors, TCAS failures, temporary loss of secondary radar info (transponder) and temporary loss of comms are at best missed opportunities to correct the problem, but are NOT root causes.

They are not a missed opportunity to correct the problem. They are safety-nets built in the system to catch mistakes. And mistakes happen on a daily basis.

The ATC software is much a root cause as any clearance is.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LVTMB
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Maperrin (Reply 28):
However, I have to inform that US pilots are in Brazil not because of Government or Air Force decisions. It has been a one judge decision.

Roger that. Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, I don't understand why in some countries airplane accidents are investigated by criminal judges, as opposed to an independent, expert body. This case proof that that is the wrong process.

MB
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 32):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 12):
United787, a failure of the transponder would account for both of your comments. I'm not surprised that such a failure could or would occur on a new airplane (the Legacy was on it's delivery flight to the U.S.). Airliners and business aircraft are remarkably complex machines and it's common to have "bugs" when they're new.

They don't have to be new ... I was on a DL 757 earlier in the week and it arrived in ATL with a failed transponder (we had to wait to leave for TPA for it to be fixed) ... it had been working fine upon its original departure and failed enroute to ATL.

(now, the difference here is I think 757s have backup transponders, right?)

Yes, the 757 would be equipped with dual transponders.

You've also made a good point about transponders, or nearly any component, can fail, new or not. My point is that despite being new, components can - and do - fail. Many folks seem to think that new airplanes can't or shouldn't have failures and that not only isn't true, it's my experience that brand-new (roughly less than a month old) airplanes have more failures than the (remaining / more than a month old) fleet average. I'd much rather fly a six year old plane or a six month old one than a six-day old plane.

I have had new transponders fail; I believe just such a failure occurred prior to this horrible accident.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
jrosa
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 34):
Roger that. Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, I don't understand why in some countries airplane accidents are investigated by criminal judges, as opposed to an independent, expert body. This case proof that that is the wrong process.

Let me correct you a little bit, I am a lawyer in Brazil and I can assure you that the Brazilian judge is not doing any investigation. Investigations are not part of our judiciary system.

What happened in this case is that there is a police investigation by the federal police (the Brazilian FBI) for the murder of 154 people (the passengers of Gol flight) and as the American pilots were involved and they could very well have certain degree of responsibility in the crash, the public federal prosecutor in charge for the case asked the judge to seize the American pilots' passports in order to avoid them leaving Brazil before the end of the investigations. I would like to emphasize that the American pilots are not under arrest, they are free and clear to move along within the country.

The reason to seize the American pilots' passports is that they do not have a permanent address in Brazil and they are not Brazilian nationals. Therefore, the idea behind the act of seizing the passports is the following: suppose the the pilots are allowed to leave Brazil and return to the USA, in case the investigations under way appoint that they have a certain degree of responsibility for the crash, the judge considered in its decision that it is very likely that the American piots will never show up again in a Brazilian court to be defendants in the lawsuits which will follow. Also, please consider that an extradition request from the Brazilian government addressed to the American government would never be succesfull, because the American government will never extradite the American pilots (according to international law a government never extradites its own nationals).

Regarding the Legacy, it is still in Brazil (I do not know where) it was seized due to a judicial decision granted in an injunction lawsuit filed by a relative of one of the victims of the Gol Flight. The aircraft was seized as a preventive measure once ExcelAir does not have any assets in Brazil, except the Legacy jet, to pay for any future indemnification.

I hope this helps your understanding of all this.

Best regards,

JC
 
Vref5
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:55 pm

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 36):
the murder of 154 people

Murder? Hmm. In the U.S., to prove a murder charge (as opposed to manslaughter) in a court of law, showing premeditated intent is generally required.

Is it different in Brasil? I realize that as a sovereign nation, Brasil is entitled to its own legal system and definitions, so I'm curious if it somehow differs in this area. As a lawyer practicing in Brasil, you likely know and I would welcome your insight.

And whom is charged with murder, or will be?

Do you really believe that the Legacy flight crew took off with a plan to slam into a Boeing 737 (premeditated intentions) and force it down? Have there been supporting evidence of that theory that is not yet known to the public?

If it is found that transponder equipment failed, will the manufacturer be charged with murder? The entire company, or the designer? Or the technicians that assembled the equipment? Or the technicians that installed it?

If it is found that the ATC controllers made a mistake or oversight, will they be charged with murder?

If it is found that software used by ATC was not sufficiently robust, will the programmers be charged with murder?

If it is found that the Legacy flight crew's actions were proper and compliant with ATC instructions, will the jet then be subsequently released?

Obviously, if it is found that the Legacy crew did not follow instructions or if they knowingly took off in a non-compliant MEL configuration, then the company would likely be responsible for settlement costs. And if the flight crew did indeed break the law, they should and will be held accountable in a court of law.

But mentions of murder before the investigation is even finished strikes me as being... unusual? Especially given the new revelations coming out now.
 
jrosa
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 37):
Murder? Hmm. In the U.S., to prove a murder charge (as opposed to manslaughter) in a court of law, showing premeditated intent is generally required.

Ok, you are correct, it is manslaughter, but this word missed me when I was writing my post.

Instead of reading "murder", please read "manslaughter" in my Reply 36.

Regarding your questions, I will try to answer them. However, please forgive me if my answers are not so complete as you expect, but I do not practice criminal law.

[Quote Vref5] "Is it different in Brasil? I realize that as a sovereign nation, Brasil is entitled to its own legal system and definitions, so I'm curious if it somehow differs in this area. As a lawyer practicing in Brasil, you likely know and I would welcome your insight."

No, here in Brazil it is not different, it works in the same way as in the US.

[Quote Vref5] "Do you really believe that the Legacy flight crew took off with a plan to slam into a Boeing 737 (premeditated intentions) and force it down? Have there been supporting evidence of that theory that is not yet known to the public?"

No, I do not believe in any premeditate act by the Legacy flight crew. Also, nobody here in Brazil ever suggested such premeditated act by the Legacy flight crew. This kamikaze conspiracy theory was never considered here.

[Quote Vref5] "If it is found that transponder equipment failed, will the manufacturer be charged with murder? The entire company, or the designer? Or the technicians that assembled the equipment? Or the technicians that installed it?"

In this case the officers (CEO or anyone else who is personally liable for the acts of the company) may be held responsible from a criminal wise stand point. However, it is not likely to happen.


[Quote Vref5] "If it is found that the ATC controllers made a mistake or oversight, will they be charged with murder?"

They will be charged with manslaughter.

[Quote Vref5] "If it is found that software used by ATC was not sufficiently robust, will the programmers be charged with murder?"

As I explained above, it is not likely to happen.

If it is found that the Legacy flight crew's actions were proper and compliant with ATC instructions, will the jet then be subsequently released?"

For sure! In case you can demonstrate in court that there are no faulty acts by the employees of ExcelAir there is not a single reason to keep the jet seized.

In fact ExcelAir can have its jet released immediately if it requests to the judge in charge of the case to change the guarantee, placing a deposit, or governmental bonds or a bank guarantee in the same value of the seized jet as a substituting guarantee. In this case it is very likely that the judge would accept the substituting guarantee, releasing the jet thereafter.

Best,

JC

[Edited 2006-12-02 20:40:00]
 
LVTMB
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:18 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 36):
there is a police investigation by the federal police

A judge, cops, whatever. What I have a problem is with is airplane accidents being investigated by anyone other than an independent, subject matter expert body. Law enforcement, federal or not, in Brazil and anywhere, are not qualified to investigate airplane accidents. The clowns at the FBI wanted to have that respknsibility in the US and, a I understand, thanks Heavens, that still belongs to the NTSB.

MB
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7877
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 39):

A judge, cops, whatever. What I have a problem is with is airplane accidents being investigated by anyone other than an independent, subject matter expert body. Law enforcement, federal or not, in Brazil and anywhere, are not qualified to investigate airplane accidents. The clowns at the FBI wanted to have that respknsibility in the US and, a I understand, thanks Heavens, that still belongs to the NTSB.

There are two investigations.

One is by the Federal Police and one is by the airforce's Accident Investigation and Prevention Team. The latter one is the "experts" doing the proper investigation.

As to why the Federal Police is involved in this is completely beyond me.

Much of the issue going on is due to Aviation being until recently completely under military control. ANAC, our National Civil Aviation Agency, under civilian control, is just a few months old. ATC is still under military control but IMHO that's likely to change as well (the MoD is in favor as well).

Cheers

[Edited 2006-12-02 22:04:36]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Maperrin (Reply 28):
have to inform that US pilots are in Brazil not because of Government or Air Force decisions. It has been a one judge decision. Judiciary is in charge of legal investigation, which is paralele to technical one. Gvt should not been taken responsible for keeping 2 persons (US or not)

You information is absolutely incorrect and incomplete. It was a Federal Police Investigator and Prosecutor (employees of the Federal Government of Brazil and for the Brazilian Department of Justice, a branch of the government and reporting to the president of Brazil), that petitioned a court to issue an order to confiscate the Legacy's crew passports. IT WAS THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT, not a rogue court that made the decision to prevent the Legacy's crew from leaving Brazil

It was the Minister of Defence, another GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL that made the decision to blame the Legacy pilots in public while deflecting attention from ATC.

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 36):
What happened in this case is that there is a police investigation by the federal police (the Brazilian FBI) for the murder of 154 people (the passengers of Gol flight) and as the American pilots were involved and they could very well have certain degree of responsibility

Brazil and the US have a well established extradition treaty, specially for murder. Even if the pilots returned to the US, the second they got formally charged with murder, Brazil could request their extradiction.

Again, there is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION for confiscating the crew's passports and preventing them from leaving the country. NONE. It is just a banana republic syndrome.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 33):
The ATC software is much a root cause as any clearance is.

ATC Software is part of the ATC system, isn't it? I simply said that the root cause of the accident was ATC (as in ATC system) clearing both planes to the same airway, altitude, time in oposite directions and failing to correct it for almost one hour. It is beyond me why you insist on interpreting my references to ATC to mean simply the controller. Please read what I wrote. We can have a much better conversation then. Thanks.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 38):
If it is found that the Legacy flight crew's actions were proper and compliant with ATC instructions, will the jet then be subsequently released?"

For sure! In case you can demonstrate in court that there are no faulty acts by the employees of ExcelAir there is not a single reason to keep the jet seized.

Wait a minute here. You are saying that ExcelAir has to prove in court that it did nothing wrong to get the jet back, rather than someone else prove the they did something wrong to keep the jet? I think it is a safe bet that this jet will rot in Brazil for many years. What a travesty.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 39):
The clowns at the FBI wanted to have that respknsibility in the US and, a I understand, thanks Heavens, that still belongs to the NTSB.

That is not correct. If ANY CRIMINAL ACTIVITY leading to an accident is suspected, then the FBI has jurisdiction and investigates together with the NTSB. For example if explosives are suspected, or if someone steals a component from an aircraft that leads to a crash, or steals a plane and crashes, you can bet the FBI and the DoJ will investigate.

The problem with this accident, is that there in NO INDICATION OR SUSPICION whatsoever of criminal activity involved. This is simply an ATC error (failed procedures, equipment, individuals). It should not be handled by a police/prosecutor and no persons or property should have been sequestred.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
jrosa
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 41):
Brazil and the US have a well established extradition treaty, specially for murder. Even if the pilots returned to the US, the second they got formally charged with murder, Brazil could request their extradition.

Again, there is ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION for confiscating the crew's passports and preventing them from leaving the country. NONE. It is just a banana republic syndrome.


There is an extradition treaty between Brazil and the US, however, a country never, and I would like to emphasize - NEVER, extradites one of its nationals. The treaty works when a Brazilian national, charged with murder, escapes to the US or the other way around, a US national, charged with murder, escapes to Brazil. When this is the case, the Brazilian will be extradite from US to Brazil and the American will be extradite from Brazil to the US.

In the Gol crash case, you are suggesting that the US Government would extradite an American, charged with manslaughter, to Brazil in order for him to be held in custody here. As you can see, this situation is completely different from the situation described above and it is not covered by the treaty.

Please note that I am not in favor of keeping seized the passports of the American pilots, I personally do not believe that any professional pilot would turn off a transponder in order to fly 1000ft above just to save fuel, this theory is bull shit. I am solely trying to explain the reasons behind the judicial decision to seize the passports and the jet.

P.s.: I will not take into account your comment regarding the Republic of Banana syndrome, because from all your other posts anyone can note that you have well balanced and knowledgeable opinions. This comment does not fit into your standard profile.

[Edited 2006-12-03 16:41:51]
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7877
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
ATC Software is part of the ATC system, isn't it? I simply said that the root cause of the accident was ATC (as in ATC system) clearing both planes to the same airway, altitude, time in oposite directions and failing to correct it for almost one hour. It is beyond me why you insist on interpreting my references to ATC to mean simply the controller. Please read what I wrote. We can have a much better conversation then. Thanks.

Thats much more balanced. You certainly did not sound like it before.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 26):
Any controller that was not asleep (mind you he had only a total of 3 targets on his sector), would get on the comms inquiring about altitude.



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 26):
When he asked the flight to ident he must have seen a bright glowing FL370=360 and still said nothing.

You sound like you were attacking the controller/ATC personel and accusing them of either negligence or incompetence. That's why I made the pilot/ATC personel/professionals comment.

At least we agree ATC system being the main problem.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 45):
There is an extradition treaty between Brazil and the US, however, a country never, and I would like to emphasize - NEVER, extradites one of its nationals.

I do not know the intricacies of the US extradition treaty with Brazil, so I'll deffer to you that it excludes US nationals. However, I know that US nationals can be prosecuted in the US for crimes comitted abroad. If a US national comits murder abroad and returns to the US, he can be charged and tried for murder in a US court as if the crime had occurred in the US. Even more so if the crime ocurred aboard a US registred vessel like an aircraft.

Even mentioning the word murder is totally off the wall in this case. Worst case scenario, one or more persons made a mistake in a very specialized, technical and demanding field - piloting or ATC. Unless someone was drunk, reckless or the like it is not a chargeable crime.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
You sound like you were attacking the controller/ATC personel and accusing them of either negligence or incompetence. That's why I made the pilot/ATC personel/professionals comment.

At least we agree ATC system being the main problem

If I sounded like that it was not my intention. I must confess that I am terribly frustrated by how the brazilian officials have handled this incident. I was actually flying to Brazil on business the same night this accident took place. Since then, I have been in Brazil twice, and I keep on wanting to hear a balanced statement from the government or the press.

Why can't someone come on TV and plainly and calmly say "Both flights were cleared incorrectly or because of non-standard phraseology to the the same altitude. We will focus our investigation into understanding why it happen and why it was not detected in time, as well as the failure of colision avoidance equipment and visual observation by the pilots avoiding the collision".

I'm not on a witch hunt. I don't want to blame the controllers. I don't want anyone blamed. We just need to understand and learn that is all.

When officials go on TV trying to pre-asign blame, and a professional flight crew is sequestered 5,000 miles from their families, it really gets to me.

So maybe my tone was wrong.

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 45):
P.s.: I will not take into account your comment regarding the Republic of Banana syndrome,

OK. Fair enough. Thank you for not engaging me with that. Read above, I was venting.

I spend a lot of time in Brazil. I have always been a great admirer of Brazilian avaiation, particularly TAM and GOL. I think Brazil has done a great job investing in updating their airports (CGH is mostly done, SDH is getting jetways as well, BSB is small but looks gorgeous, etc). Despite all the controversy, Brazil did manage to cover most of their airspace with decent radar, even in the amazon, which prior to that was like flying the atlantic (no radar). The CINDACTA system was a decent (not perfect) system. I actually find the Brazilian commercial flying regulations on par with American's and in some respects more sane.

Why risk it all because some official (the Ministry of Defence) can't hold the buck and wants to conviniently blame a US crew.

Come on. Brazil is better than that. How come the thousands of professional pilots of Brazil are not petitioning, demonstrating, protesting for the return of the american pilot's passports? How come? Because they mistakingly believe that being patriotic requires finding that the US pilots caused this crash.

That is wrong!!! Being patriotic requires stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing.

When the US navy shot down a civilian Iranian airliner that was flying towards their fleet without proper transponder identification, the US stepped up to the plate, apologized to the families and paid compensation to them even though we have no diplomatic relations with Iran. Same when we put 2 1,000 lb bombs down the shaft of the chinese embasy in Yuguslavia (sp).

PPVRA and JROSA - you are smart balanced guys - why isn't the aviation comunity in Brazil demanding that these pilots be allowed to return home.

Had this been a Brazilian pilot detained in Costa Rica under the same circumstances what would the brazilian avaiation community and press be saying?

Thanks for the dialog.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
jrosa
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 am

RE: Gol B738 And EMB 135 Crash Latest Update

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:39 am

First of all the BREAKING NEWS: The Federal Court of Appeals in Brasilia determined that the passports of the American pilots should be released to them in 72 hours from now. During these 72 hours the American pilots should be heard a last time by the Brazilian Federal Police.

After the receipt of their passports the American pilots will be able to board a plane to the US.

Earlier today a federal police agent involved in the investigations of the crash informed that the Brazilian Federal Police investigation was indicating that the American pilots had much less fault for the crash than was expected right after the accident. According to this agent, there are six factors in the police investigation and the American pilots procedures were one of the lesser important causes for the crash.

Another topic: BARON95, opinions, thoughts and behaviors such as the ones demonstrated in your post above really make the discussions in this forum worth the time spent. It is very good to be dealing with people like you, welcome to my RU list!