United777atGU
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Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:47 pm

From San Francisco Chronicle

"While the governor awaits the outcome of Hawaiian's petition before the U.S. Department of Transportation to continue serving the territory, Tulafono said he continues to talk with other airlines who may be interested in the American Samoa market.

Among the airlines is United Airlines, which the governor said is currently looking into whether it could make a stopover in Pago Pago en route to other destinations in the Pacific."

Well, I'm sorry about the problems that Hawaiian and the governor and American Samoa are having. I must say that.

Now to my point: Is United really looking at a Pago Pago stopover?? Well, obviously route planners and upper management would only know...but let's speculate? What would this do for UA? Would it work for them? What would they tweak in their routes/schedules? Would the route be a tag-on from HNL, OGG, LIH, or KOA? They wouldn't dare touch an international flight and try to include a stop, would they? I think it would be cool (probably uneconomical though) to work a PPG-HNL-PPG so they can get the connections to the mainland and to NGO or NRT if possible...???
(It'd add just one more destination to the list of places I plan to visit!!!)  bouncy 
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Gemuser
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:05 pm

Seems unlikley, but how about LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772 or LAX/SFO-PPG-MEL B744 decoupled from the SYD flight.

Apart from SYD & MEL and the reintroduction of AKL, UA does not fly to any where else that PPG is on the way to.

Gemuser
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MCOflyer
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:40 pm

It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

MCOflyer
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dutchjet
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:10 pm

I would be shocked if UA ended up at Pago Pago......UA has trimmed its South Pacific network down to nothing more than nonstops from California to Australia, how would a route to PGO (from HNL?) fit into the network planning.

From what I have read, the govenor of American Samoa is quite a character.....and while he may have spoken with UA, who knows if UA was listening? If HA were to drop service to PGO, Aloha would seem to be the replacement carrier.....but didnt Aloha once try service to PGO and could not make money on the route? And isnt a destination like PGO better served with a widebody aircraft that can haul lots of cargo?

There were also rumors that American Samoan interests would form a new airline in order to provide service to the islands, I dont know what happened to that idea. In any case, the Samoan soap opera continues......I just hope that the overzealous approach taken by the govenor does not result in the islands losing a vital air link.
 
dispatchguy
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:22 pm

UA already has the authority to tech stop in PPG.
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HALFA
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

What "crud" are you referring too?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
I would be shocked if UA ended up at Pago Pago......

So would I.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
If HA were to drop service to PGO, Aloha would seem to be the replacement carrier.....

HA has no intentions of dropping service to PPG or being forced out by a politician with ulterior motives. Aloha tried service to PPG from HNL a few years ago but quickly withdrew as it was not profitable for them.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
And isnt a destination like PGO better served with a widebody aircraft that can haul lots of cargo?

Absolutely.
Just to add a little bit to this story. A few weeks ago, Governor Tulafono went to Washington to meet with government officials and made a stop in Chicago to plead his case to UA management about starting service to the territory. There has been no word by the Media here in HNL or in PPG whether his attempts were successful.

Aloha,
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ha763
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
but didnt Aloha once try service to PGO and could not make money on the route?

Yes, AQ couldn't make money flying to PPG. This was even with the fact that their PPG operation was partially subsidized by the Am. Samoa government. Subsidies that were not and are not offered to HA. AQ's fares were not much lower than HA's and AQ pulled out after less than a year.

Here's the article were it mentions the support given by the Am. Samoa government to AQ. Look under the section titled, "Aloha: A Failed Experiment."

http://archives.pireport.org/archive/2006/august/08-08-ed2.htm
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 5):
What "crud" are you referring too?

The crud between Tulano and HA. No disrespect intended HALFA.

MCOflyer
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ltbewr
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:33 pm

Perhaps CM (Contintental-Micronesia) could cover this, as they already cover other USA territorial Pacific islands.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772

That could get them back to AKL. The route could even be offered with a 763ER.
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bobnwa
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1):
LAX/SFO-PPG-AKL with B772 or LAX/SFO-PPG-MEL B744

Either of those routings would lose money faster than UA could count it. PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to. The local population is not large enough to support that kind of service.
 
AirCop
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:37 am

Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 11):
Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.

That was 40 years ago, when passengers had no choice other than multi-stop transpacific flights. Passengers (especially premium pax sitting up front and those paying higher fares) now require and expect nonstop service from LAX/SFO to SYD/MEL/AKL and have no interest in a 20+ hour multi-stop odyssey when nonstop flights are offered. Even Air New Zealand, the pioneer in flying the coral route, and the airline that has maintained its island hopping network in the SOuth Pacific, is rethinking its route system to keep costs under control. Thus, an island hopper flight would no longer attract any thru traffic (aside from some a.net members) and revenue would have to be earned in full on the individual segments......thats a tough business case.

Operations in the SOuth Pacific is a difficult and expensive proposition....and fares do tend to be high due to long distances and limited demand/frequency; that is why I still do not understand why the govenor of American Samoa is so critical of Hawaiian. Fares on the HNL-PPG can not and should not be compared to the fares charged on LAX-HNL (for example)......the conditions, demand, yeilds and expenses are totally different.
 
ha763
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Perhaps CM (Contintental-Micronesia) could cover this, as they already cover other USA territorial Pacific islands.

They would be a logical choice, but their fares would be just as high or higher than HA's. Plus, they have no presence in the South Pacific outside of Cairns and probably not even looking at the area. That's probably why they were not mentioned by the Governor.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to.

Yep, Am. Samoa has a non-existant tourist industry.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
that is why I still do not understand why the govenor of American Samoa is so critical of Hawaiian.

Exactly. He should have learned from his AQ experiment. He favored AQ and helped them with taxpayer money, but AQ's fares were only slightly lower than HA's.
 
freedom747
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:36 am

From an airline standpoint, what business would any airline have flying there? Fill me in...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10):
PGG is a destination that neither Aussies or Mainland US visitors are clamoring to go to. The local population is not large enough to support that kind of service.

Even with the rest of Samoa factored in, the only service that is really needed is 2-3x per week to HNL is all I can see as being economically feasible. From HNL people can find their way to LAX, SAN, SFO, SLC (A sizable chunk of Samoa is Mormon believe it or not) or SEA where the vast majority of the Samoan community resides on the mainland.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:45 pm

I can't see UA stopping enroute to OZ or NZ in PGG. With the US-OZ market being rather competitive and highly coveted, I can't see the only US airline offering non-stops from the mainland US, stopping. It would hurt business. Hell, who wants to stop in HNL (sunny, paradise destination aside) on the way Down Under, when you can go non-stop?

HA will just have to go it alone on the PGG-HNL market and the governor of Samoa will have to deal with it.

Isn't there more of a HNL-PGG market than a US Mainland-PGG market?
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 16):
Isn't there more of a HNL-PGG market than a US Mainland-PGG market?

Samoa is a significantly poor island chain as is nearby Tonga. You have to get further west into Fiji, or east towards French Polynesia before there is more of a tourist market, and more disposable income amongst the population.
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burnsie28
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
It would make sense to introduce UA as they could improve relations and stop all that crud thats going on.

The problem was that he said that HA was charging too much, i found airfare from PHX-PPG rt for $400 thats no different then most US domestic markets.
 
bohica
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting United777atGU (Thread starter):
From San Francisco Chronicle

Has anyone clicked on the article?

The main topic of the article is not about UA but the Governor of American Samoa complaining that HA favors the Oakland Raiders over customers in the territory claiming that HA has rescheduled service to PPG to handle the Raiders charters.

Here is an excerpt of the article:
(12-01) 12:38 PST PAGO PAGO, American Samoa (AP) --
Hawaiian Airlines denies American Samoa Gov. Togiola Tulafono's latest complaint: that the carrier favors the Oakland Raiders over its customers in the U.S. territory.

Tulafono, who is trying to get a new carrier to serve the territory, blames Hawaiian's charter services agreement with the NFL team for the rescheduling of several flights between Pago Pago and Honolulu in recent weeks.

Airline spokesman Keoni Wagner insists that's not the cause for Hawaiian having to reschedule five flights in November.

He said aircraft for the regularly scheduled flights were not available because of "an unanticipated delay in modifying the interior of a 767 that's being added to our fleet."

Wagner, in an e-mail responding to questions, said, "This has affected flights on all of our routes, not just Pago Pago."
 
planemanofnz
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:03 pm

Hopefully this will sign the return of UA to New Zealand after about a 4 year absence.

What I didn't understand was why UA pulled LAX-AKL-MEL and instead, started LAX-SYD-MEL. SYD has enough O & D traffic to sustain a seperate flight. There would be lots of local traffic MEL-AKL and lots of MEL PAX continuing to LAX. Plus, AKL would prvide better connections to CNS, ADL and PER than the current situation at the moment.

While a routing to AKL via PagoPago would not be ideal, it would work in my mind. However, if this route does go ahead I can sense a more agrovated relationship between UA and NZ emerge as the new PagoPago flight would obviously completely sabotage NZ's own LAX-APW flight. To be honest I think NZ would rather fly LAX-PGO-AKL than LAX-APW-AKL, it's just that NZ does not have local traffic rights American Samoa - USA. I mean what American wants to go to Western Samoa when it is easier to get to American Samoa?

UA please, please come back to New Zealand. I beg of you.
 
PITrules
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Quoting HALFA (Reply 5):
What "crud" are you referring too?

The crud between Tulano and HA. No disrespect intended HALFA.

MCOflyer

I can't speak for Am Samoa, but what "crud" has HA dished out? I don't understand
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flydreamliner
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 11):
Pan American used to run a milk run thru the pacific islands with a 707, which includes a stop at PPG, (in-fact they crashed one at PPG late sixties), so why not with a UA 763 or 757, I'm sure more than one island is underserved.

Milk runs have all but fallen out of favor, since making money on them is a pretty big uphill battle. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone really interested in flying from SFO-AKL via HNL and PPG.

Continental Micronesia makes the most sense, to me, to pick that route up. UA has been trimming a lot of routes and centering its focus on areas where it seems to have advantages in the market and can therefor make the most money.... flying to PPG just doesn't fit.

As for UA flying SFO-AKL on a 772ER or even maybe a 763ER (if it has the legs... it looks too close to call for me), I'd love that, even though their star alliance partner Air New Zealand services it currently (and Air New Zealand is a wonderful airline, btw), it'd be nice to see the two share the route.... I could fly in to AKL on UA and back on NZ.
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koruman
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:30 pm

It's not true, but there is a potential market!

We know that there is a market of economy class passengers flying American Samoa to Hawaii, and there is an even bigger market of economy class passengers flying Auckland to Apia. Both markets are price sensitive in the extreme, and neither can find high-yield business class markets.

In addition, Air New Zealand is very reluctant to continue its AKL-HNL 767 service and is considering routing it via APW or RAR.

What about the option of United using a low-cost base Ted operation to fly A320 aircraft or similar:

Auckland - Apia - Pago Pago- Honolulu.

The AKL-APW flight would certainly be full, and a handful of people would fly through to HNL

And the PPG-HNL flight would obviously be full too

It could be done, and requires no new traffic rights except for AKL-APW and APW-PPG, which would be a formality, especially if Air New Zealand agreed an Airshare agreement and bought a block of seats. And if they bought seats all the way through to HNL they would get out of their HNL dilemna.

But it is imaginative, and airlines don't like anything that looks novel or risky.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:08 pm

I think the American Samoan governor should be looking into ways to remove the double standard applied to PPG airport.

It is technically a domestic airport as it is a territory of the United States, so no airline can have any traffic rights PPG - USA. However, all HNL-PPG are considered international, so higher international airfare rules must apply. Choose one or the other, but not both. That's what makes PPG such a rough location.

I think it would be terrific is UA could fly to PPG coupled with an increase in Samoan tourist facilities. I understand it to be a fascinating place - maybe with an increase in tourist facilities could accompany a UA expansion. I'd love to visit!!
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United777atGU
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 23):

We know that there is a market of economy class passengers flying American Samoa to Hawaii, and there is an even bigger market of economy class passengers flying Auckland to Apia. Both markets are price sensitive in the extreme, and neither can find high-yield business class markets.

In addition, Air New Zealand is very reluctant to continue its AKL-HNL 767 service and is considering routing it via APW or RAR.

What about the option of United using a low-cost base Ted operation to fly A320 aircraft or similar:

Auckland - Apia - Pago Pago- Honolulu.

That's an awesome idea! I like it alot! It would give UA a reason to say that Ted is working and is expanding--the only problem is that it would be solely based in the Pacific, w/o any connections to Ted on the mainland...interesting. It would be nice if someone figured out the logistics and made it work. The region, as some have explained, is very difficult and sensitive. No wonder not many people want in on it.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 24):
I'd love to visit!!

I would too.
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NZ107
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:41 pm

Doesn't Virgin Blue have some sort of codeshare with UA? They could do a codeshare with Polynesian Blue for flights to and from APW.. Unless NZ will fly there.. What's the distance between APW and PPG? Have Polynesian Blue considered HNL, and how long would a flight take for something like a 767?
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:42 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 13):
Yep, Am. Samoa has a non-existant tourist industry.

Yes, so:

1) Low density route
2) Low Yield route (not a lot of 1st or business traffic)
3) need a widebody A/C to help the profit margin with freight.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 24):
HNL-PPG are considered international, so higher international airfare rules must apply.

4) Higher costs due to additional International fees.
5) Not enough demand for a second airline.

Either the Governor is simply stubborn and cannot hear these reasons why the fares are higher, or I would suggest an ulterior motive:

He has a relatively stagnant and isolated economy which does not benefit as much as his people would like from it's association with the U.S. So perhaps this is his way to improve his approval rating locally, by seeming to take on the big, unfair airline from the U.S. It seems like either unfathomable ego, or else a calculated "fight" to seem like a David against Goliath. Even if he loses, he looks good to his constituents because he is their advocate?
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777fan
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 26):
Doesn't Virgin Blue have some sort of codeshare with UA? They could do a codeshare with Polynesian Blue for flights to and from APW.. Unless NZ will fly there.. What's the distance between APW and PPG? Have Polynesian Blue considered HNL, and how long would a flight take for something like a 767?

Don't even get me started on the DJ-UA relationship. Mrs. 777fan just arrived back on our home rock (Oahu) after a two week jaunt in Australia and New Zealand...both countries charmed our socks off as we're already planning to go back!

A trip report is in the works; be prepared to see Air Canada and Virgin Blue (aka Virgin Screw) get shredded. Preview: Virgin Blue charged us a $200 (AUS) baggage overage fee from SYD-MEL (granted, we expected to be charged something)...but, despite actually having 2kg more in luggage, charged us only $60AUS on the return leg!!! A complaint has already been filed, per the suggestion of the MEL-based agents.

More to come...


777fan
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NZ107
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 28):
Don't even get me started on the DJ-UA relationship

Whoops, sorry.. Just haven't heard much of it apart from the fact you can get UA miles on DJ (true..?) and well maybe saying a codeshare with NZ using one of their "empty Tasman A320s". How many people fly to APW to then head over to American Samoa? Would there be much room for operating 2 flights? Or alternate it?
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
koruman
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:06 pm

Every comment about why PPG is an unattractive route for an airline are true, but then Hawaiian is sticking in there like a limpet because as long as it has a monopoly it can screw anyone wanting to fly out of Tafuna, and it quite blatantly and unapologetically does so.

Apia to Pago Pago is around a 12 minute jet flight: it's nothing. That's why AKL-APW-PPG-HNL could work, because an empty APW-PPG sector is little more than repositioning, and only a US carrier will get PPG-HNL rights.

United's cordial relations with both Virgin Blue and Air NZ would also remove any fighting over traffic rights.
 
777fan
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 29):
Whoops, sorry.. Just haven't heard much of it apart from the fact you can get UA miles on DJ (true..?)

No, it's true but only on flights within Australia that continue onward from UA's flights to SYD and MEL. It's pretty confusing and, after the experience we had last week, not worth the miles.

As an aside, both of the SYD-AKL flights we flew on ANZ were completely full (A320s). Service was impeccable.

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bobnwa
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 30):
Apia to Pago Pago is around a 12 minute jet flight: it's nothing. That's why AKL-APW-PPG-HNL could work, because an empty APW-PPG sector is little more than repositioning, and only a US carrier will get PPG-HNL rights.

Even though it is only a 12 minute flight, it would cost UA thousands to fly APW-PGG.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:54 am

would little natives run out to the plane and try to sell beads to the passengers?

 flamed 

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sstsomeday
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 30):
Every comment about why PPG is an unattractive route for an airline are true, but then Hawaiian is sticking in there like a limpet because as long as it has a monopoly it can screw anyone wanting to fly out of Tafuna, and it quite blatantly and unapologetically does so.

It is true that they have a monopoly, and will charge what the market will bear. I wonder if some charter operation would be able to offer once or twice weekly flights at lower prices? It would be illegal for Hawaiian to undercut them solely to put them out of business.

I remember when I first went to The Netherlands with my family as a young lad, we were on an actual charter flight; an entire A/C that was not part of the regular KLM schedule. It was a KLM DC-8 hired by a charter operation. Some time later, we were part of charter groups on reg sched flights; part of a block of seats that had been purchased from the airline by a charter operator at a group discount. Those savings were passed on to us. Are none of these options possible for vacationing Samoians?

I need to add to my suggested "reasons for higher fares:"

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 27):

1) Low density route
2) Low Yield route (not a lot of 1st or business traffic)
3) need a widebody A/C to help the profit margin with freight.
4) Higher costs due to additional International fees.
5) Not enough demand for a second airline.

6) More expensive ground operations due to inability to share infrastructure or employees with other operators.
7) And I suspect, higher fuel costs in Pago Pago
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Motorhussy
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago S

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 17):
Samoa is a significantly poor island chain as is nearby Tonga. You have to get further west into Fiji, or east towards French Polynesia before there is more of a tourist market, and more disposable income amongst the population.

What an incredibly ignorant and ill-informed thing to say. Been to Samoa a few times have you? No, didn't sound like it.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
baw716
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:43 am

Hmm...the governor again.

OK, let's leave him aside for a moment and look at the merits.

HNL-PPG-HNL service on its own makes no sense for UA. Now, if UA were to attempt to open up secondary cities in Australia (BNE or CNS), then going to PPG might make sense if there was enough traffic to split the plane and enough local traffic between PPG and secondary cities in Aus to make it viable. Since this route could be flown with a twin, a 777-200 could be flown that direction. The problem is (for United), from the west coast, there are too many 1 stop connections to BNE/CNS that a two stop affair would be something few passengers would be willing to accept.

Now, if UA flew west coast-PPG-BNE, then there might be something to consider. However, is there enough traffic to warrant a west coast-PPG service? I have no clue on this and if someone with some better information could offer an opinion on this point, I'd certainly welcome it.

As to the question of Hawaii-PPG and the war between the Am. Samoan Governor and HA, I really don't think that another carrier is going to come into that market. I have to believe that part of the reason the fares are so high to/from PPG is that the market is not big enough to support the aircraft that is on it now. I don't know if a 737-700 has the range to make PPG from HNL, but if so, then perhaps the other Hawaiian carrier could operate it, but my sense is that if AQ is staying out of the fray, they probably don't think it makes a whole lot of sense either.

If someone with some better idea of the economics of the route could share some information, then I could offer a better opinion. I am not going to offer an opinion on the current HA v. Am Samoa Governor flap, I just don't know enough about the loads and economics of the route to make an educated opinion.

Thoughts anyone?

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 36):
Now, if UA flew west coast-PPG-BNE, then there might be something to consider. However, is there enough traffic to warrant a west coast-PPG service? I have no clue on this and if someone with some better information could offer an opinion on this point, I'd certainly welcome it.

Perhaps there would be more demand if another carrier can make the route viable by offering competition. Maybe this is possible as a one-stop route to a northern Australian city from the West Coast. Whereas it's reasonable that the fares are somewhat higher on this low yield, high cost route, yet without any competition, Hawaiian MAY have somewhat inflated fares on TOP of that. All things considered, however, it seems that the low yield nature of the route prevents other airlines from trying to compete.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 36):
don't know if a 737-700 has the range to make PPG from HNL,

I am certainly not more educated on the subject than you, and I am speculating here, but I understand that part of what makes that route viable is the freight below decks. A 737 would offer less capability in that regard vs the 767, I would suggest. So it may not be able to compete even if with high passenger loads.
I come in peace
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:34 am

But an A320 is fine for freight!

I don't see Samoa (Western or American) being viable for any flights apart from to Hawaii (from Pago) or New Zealand (from Apia).

But an A320 would be fine on AKL-APW-PPG-HNL, and useful with freight.
 
ha763
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 36):
I have to believe that part of the reason the fares are so high to/from PPG is that the market is not big enough to support the aircraft that is on it now.

The PPG market is big enough for the 767 2-3 times a week, which is exactly what the schedule is. The cabin may not always be full of pax, but there is a lot of excess bags and mail going down there.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 36):
I don't know if a 737-700 has the range to make PPG from HNL, but if so, then perhaps the other Hawaiian carrier could operate it, but my sense is that if AQ is staying out of the fray, they probably don't think it makes a whole lot of sense either.

It has been mentioned several times before in other threads. AQ flew to PPG with their 737-700s. But they pulled out after less than a year because they couldn't make money on the route. AQ's fares were slightly lower than HA's, flew on days not operated by HA, flights were scheduled to leave HNL earlier than HA's flight, allowed 3 checked bags compared to 2 for HA, were favored over HA by Tulafono, and got subsidies from the Am. Samoa government. All this and they couldn't make it on the route.

HA responded to the added competition by doing nothing. They didn't lower fares, change schedules, or policies, yet they are the ones still flying the route.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 37):
I am certainly not more educated on the subject than you, and I am speculating here, but I understand that part of what makes that route viable is the freight below decks.

With increased security requirements, most cargo goes on Kalitta's weekly 747 to PPG. It's the excess bags and mail that fills the belly.
 
B6FA4ever
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 38):
But an A320 would be fine on AKL-APW-PPG-HNL, and useful with freight.

the A320 may not be useful for freight if PPG-HNL is anything like JFK to the carribean. we (jetblue) discontinued service from JFK-SDQ due to not making money on that flight and mainly due to the cargo (excess bags etc). AA flies that route w/ A300-600's and i hear that even those planes are packed to the gills w/ cargo.

so i doubt PPG-HNL would do any better w/ an A320.

~B6FA4ever
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 33):
would little natives run out to the plane and try to sell beads to the passengers?

No, they learned from their previous mistakes when a newborn was sucked into the intake of a P&W JT9D. The extended family spent the following 20 something years paying back Pan-Am the money only to be relieved, post-Lockerbie, when the airline went belly-up.

 biting 

And on a different note, you obviously know little about Samoa as there are very few "little" natives; Polynesians being the physically largest race on the planet.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 36):
I don't know if a 737-700 has the range to make PPG from HNL,

Of course it can, FJ use them on their NAN-HNL-YVR legs; each of these is longer than PPG-HNL.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
koruman
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:50 pm

I'm not anti-Hawaiian: I'm a member of the frequent flyer program.

I'd just say that Hawaiian is onto a winner being a monopoly carrier protected from competition from more efficient local carriers like Polynesian Blue and Air NZ due to application of cabotage rules in a place which is further away from mainland USA than Africa is.

I think that mid-Pacific stopovers died forever when 747s grew enough range to fly USA-Australia / NZ non-stop.

But SLCUT2777's comments show his or her ignorance. American Samoa may not have a tourist industry, but its residents are richer than any other Pacific Islanders except for Hawaiian residents, French Polynesians and New Caledonians. And (western) Samoa, may I remind you, has a higher literacy rate than the USA.

No-one new will fly to Pago Pago. (Can anyone find any internet stuff about South Pacific Island Airways who flew 707s out of PPG?).

But if anyone new did, it would have to be a UA-operated plane (to avoid cabotage accusations) with blocks of seats pre-sold to partners Air New Zealand and Polynesian Blue.

Let's say there were 150 seats on an A320.

AKL-APW: pre-sell 50 seats to Air NZ for AKL-APW and 50 more seats to Air NZ for AKL-HNL.
APW-PPG: pre-sell 50 seats to Air NZ (all the way AKL-HNL) and sell 30 seats to Polynesian Blue for APW-PPG and 30 seats to Polynesian Blue for APW-HNL .
PPG-HNL: pre-sell 50 seats to Air NZ for AKL-HNL and 30 seats to Polynesian Blue for APW-HNL.

This model takes out all the competition except for Hawaiian, and guarantees revenue to UA for 100/150 seats AKL-APW, 80/150 seats APW-PPG and 80/150 seats for PPG-HNL. In other words, it turns a profit before UA actually sells any of its 50 seats AKL-APW, 40 seats APW-PPG or 70 seats PPG-HNL.

And whereas Air New Zealand currently has just over 700 seats per week to HNL, if it instead depended on this codeshare it could be operated daily and still only require them to sell 350 seats per week.

If you're wondering where the idea comes from, it is exactly what Air New Zealand is doing on the Auckland - Noumea route with Air Calin's A320 service, and is exactly what Air NZ is proposing to do with Air Tahiti Nui on its A340 Los Angeles -Papeete service. It's a good model for long, thin Pacific routes.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 1529
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RE: Is It True That UA Is Looking At A Pago Pago Stop?

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:26 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 30):
Apia to Pago Pago is around a 12 minute jet flight: it's nothing. That's why AKL-APW-PPG-HNL could work, because an empty APW-PPG sector is little more than repositioning, and only a US carrier will get PPG-HNL rights.

Are you sure this is a good idea? I'd hate to think what that would do to an aircraft if such a routine was continued over a long period of time. I mean look at EI's 333's which have to make a double, 25 minute hope DUB-SNN a couple of times a day. Because of this, they're nearly always in for maintenence or having issues.

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