Concorde001
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Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:47 am

Lufthansa targets Japan, India, China as investment areas
Kolkata, Dec 2

Briefing reporters on the resumption of Lufthansa's direct Kolkata-Frankfurt thrice-a-week service after a gap of 35 years, the airline's executive vice-president (Marketing and Sales) Thierry Antinori said in India Lufthansa was targeting 20,000 outbound passengers per week.

The airline, which made Kolkata its sixth destination as against four in China, is working out details for adding another destination in the country. Asked to be specific, he said Amritsar was the likely destination.


I think LH wants to target the huge Panjabi population in North America - at they moment they have very limited (and boy I mean limited) one-stop options to get to ATQ.

What do you guys think the frequency will be?

On a side note, this is great news for Amritsar Airport. The airport has been showing tremendous growth recently - ATQ has direct services to LHR, BHX, YYZ, DME, SIN, TAS, ASB, BTS and it seems in the near future FRA! AI recently increased its BHX and YYZ flight to six weekly and once 9W get more A332s I think LHR will also have increased frequencies (9W wanted to operate the route six weekly).

It also seems ATQ's first development phase is complete - I have the found the following pictures on myaviation.net...the airport now has a proper terminal building!

MyAviation.net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photographer © Harmeet Pal Singh




MyAviation.net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photographer © Harmeet Pal Singh




MyAviation.net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photographer © Harmeet Pal Singh
 
dutchjet
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:09 am

Interesting.......after years of international carriers being focused only on Mumbai and Dehli, the Indian market is fragmenting and airlines are looking beyond these two cities. The changes in the international Indian market are simply remarkable.......nonstop flights to/from the US and new services to/from ""secondary"" Indian cities, not to mention increased capacity on traditional routes such as those to London.

As for Amristar, I think that its just a matter of time until LH launches service....my guess would be 3X per week A343 service to start, upgrading to daily service just as soon as practical.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:27 am

Despite what Thierry had to say on ATQ, I still think, LH will go to AMD first.

rgds//Vimanav
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
my guess would be 3X per week A343 service to start, upgrading to daily service just as soon as practical.

You may be correct about the frequencies, however I'm not too sure about the A343 - I'm not sure if it can handle it, more specifically the runway length. AI and SQ operate 772s from ATQ - doesn't the A343 require more length?

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 2):
Despite what Thierry had to say on ATQ, I still think, LH will go to AMD first

You have a point - if I'm not mistaken AI's first non DEL/BOM route from LHR was AMD - maybe traffic is higher from there...?

Also I have just read the following about British Airways and the possibility of beginning flights to ATQ:

"Sriram Narayan, BA's central India manager, revealed that the interline feed to and from Hyderabad and Amritsar was considerably high, putting both of them firmly on the wishlist for the airline's next round of frequency additions."

Source: Click HERE
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:13 am

What is rwy length at ATQ. Do they plan to increase its length?? Any 2nd rwy requirement??

I think LH might do A343 during peak travel time downgrading to A333 during off peak times.

I am sure if 777 can do it then an A343 can as well  Smile

Awesome news for ATQ and even AMD.

Thanks for sharing pictures of ATQ, more would be appreciated  Smile
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 4):
What is rwy length at ATQ

According to World Aero Data:
Runway: 16/34
Length: 10,791 ft / 3289 m
Surface: Asphalt

Maybe someone can tell us if ATQ is A340 compatible?

After having a look at terminal capacity on the Airport's Authority of India website, I was amazed to read that the maximum handling of passengers at any one time is 250! But, if I'm not mistaken, ATQ is going through a development phase. Phase I is completed, while Phase II to remains. I think Phase II is concerned with navigational and airfield upgrades.

If LH do decide to go for ATQ, what timings would they use...something which would allow for US connections?

I've just realised that ATQ is becoming a fast growing STAR Alliance airport - I know it sounds weird considering its small size, but consider the following flights from ATQ:

SQ - Singapore
AI*- Delhi, Mumbai, Birmingham, Toronto, Dubai (Operated by AI Express)
IC*- Delhi, Sharjah
LH - Frankfurt?

*Scheduled to join STAR in 2007

Also TG have expressed interest to fly to ATQ!
 
behramjee
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:20 pm

LH should look into AMD-Ahmedabad before ATQ as the former has more high yielding potential than ATQ!
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
LH should look into AMD-Ahmedabad before ATQ as the former has more high yielding potential than ATQ!

I think both AMD and ATQ will do well...both Gujju and Punju population have loads of $$$. hehehehe  Smile
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HB-IWC
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Lufthansa targets Japan, India, China as investment areas

I presume that Lufthansa will be looking at secondary markets in China as well. As it goes, Beijing and Shanghai are becoming more and more crowded and the yields have been suffering accordingly. Meanwhile, KLM seems to be doing just fine in Chengdu, so I presume that there are a number of cities of the caliber of CTU currently being looked at by LH.

I am surprised to see Japan on the LH wish list for growth. Japan, like South Korea, is a very mature market, yet LH is venturing into Busan next year, and now comes this annoucement about Japan. I would presume that they are looking into Fukuoka and Chitose for any future growth.
 
Ejazz
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:15 pm

First thing they need to do is air condition the large check-in area at the Airport. Standing there in almost 40 degree heat in summer was no fun last year.

Another problem we found is accommodating the crew on the layover. We stayed in what was supposedly the best hotel in town and it was a dump. Most crew brought their own towels, sheets and pillows which was absurd. I just cannot see the LH crew accepting it.
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Nimish
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Ejazz (Reply 9):
Another problem we found is accommodating the crew on the layover. We stayed in what was supposedly the best hotel in town and it was a dump. Most crew brought their own towels, sheets and pillows which was absurd. I just cannot see the LH crew accepting it.

That's actually an easy problem to solve - LH can possibly just lease a huge palatial mansion and convert that into a guest house. Or sub-contract with someone for a fancy set of serviced apts. It's also a matter of demand and supply - when there's demand, the fancy 5* hotels will be built pretty soon. I'm guessing SQ crew turn around and fly right back to SIN? Or do they layover in ATQ?

On the whole - this is excellent news for LH & India (and Star alliance as well). Given the dilapidated state of the "main" indian airports (aka DEL/BOM), most folks needing connections would prefer to avoid those airports - even if it means an even more dilapidated home airport (in my case - much prefer using BLR even though it's a dump, as the alternatives are BOM and DEL and the silly AAI service to connect between terminals).

I see this route as being a predominantly VFR route for the moment, as there's practically no Western investment in ATQ and surroundings (folks please feel free to correct me on that point). There should be a few Punjabi businessmen though, setting off to Europe & the Americas to see about their export business (whether it's rice or handicrafts or heavy equipment).
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Kevin777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 2):
Despite what Thierry had to say on ATQ, I still think, LH will go to AMD first.



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6):
LH should look into AMD-Ahmedabad before ATQ as the former has more high yielding potential than ATQ!

Have to agree with this, AMD would be a better first-choice for Indian expansion for LH that ATQ.

A major reason is that ATQ is a heavy VFR-destination, but not as heavy on C-traffic as AMD. And there is very limited VFR-potential from Germany to ATQ; as pointed out earlier in this thread this mainly comes from North America, and starting a route based primarily on connecting traffic from the US is not a sound idea, as it is the nonstop pax - and especially the C-ones - that pay the fare premiums. FRA-AMD would attract a lot more C-pax and Germany/Europe originating pax than FRA-ATQ.

Well, just my two cents...

Kevin777  Smile
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:39 pm

Thats great , LH is really growing in Asia , Now they are the Biggest European Airline there.
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behramjee
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 11):
FRA-AMD would attract a lot more C-pax and Germany/Europe originating pax than FRA-ATQ.

precisely...Gujarat state in India is where AMD is situated and is home to one of the worlds larges Diamond manufacturing facilities...lots of C class flying diamond merchant traders fly from AMD via BOM/DEL to BRU.

its also a big time farming state in india and exports massive amounts of farming related products worldwide hence the cargo belly too would easily see 80% occupancy year long...and nowadays air cargo is considered vv high yielding.

LH can also target the large and wealthy guju population residing in LHR, NYC, LAX, SFO, YYZ, ORD and IAD for this flight. Pax heading to AMD, would easily pay a surcharge of USD 100 more if they can to AMD straight without having to transit in BOM or DEL.
 
Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:24 am

I think you may be right about AMD. With its larger population and industrial centre (much greater than ATQ) it may be better for LH...but is there a really big difference between AMD and ATQ?

According to the Indian Government statistics, Punjab's economy (where ATQ is situated) is growing above the national average with a 10% growth rate.

Also, according to Government statistics, Punjab has the highest per capita income the whole of India and the best infrastructure.

In terms of industry, AMD wins - Gujarat is the industrial heartland of India, of that there is no doubt. I have heard that Ahmedabad has an impressive chemicals and pharmaceuticals industry and also IT is growing rapidly.
But, if I'm not mistaken Punjab is developing quickly too. Again according to government statistics:

  • Punjab has over 2.04 lakhs of small and medium industries
  • 600 large scale industries.
  • Leader in the manufacture of machine and hand tools; printing and paper cutting machinery; auto parts and electrical switch gear.
  • Punjab provides more than 75% of the country's requirement for bicycles, sewing machines, hosiery and sports goods.
  • Punjab's Hosiery industry is India's leading and is a major foreign exchange earner.


Also, isn't oil giant BP going to build a $3bn (£1.73bn) oil refinery in Punjab with Hindu Petroleum, producing 180,000 barrels of oil a day?

Behramjee, in terms of farming, isn't Punjab by far India's most important farming state? I've just had a look on the website and apparently Punjab is meant to be 'India's bread basket' and average farm land prices in the state starting at $200,000 a acre!? Also, I thought Punjab exports the most farming equipment (tractors 'Punjab Tractors Ltd' by Swaraj Industries)?

I still have a feeling you may be right that AMD is probably more attractive than ATQ - its population is seven times higher for a start and if you take take into account its role as the gateway to Gujarat, AMD seems very attractive...though LH in ATQ would be great!
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:47 pm

ATQ will work very well. LH will be able to capitalize the numerous NRIs in SFO, ORD, NYC, YVR, YYZ, IAH, LAX... etc. Also, foreign investment in Punjab is really taking off... especially in places like Amritsar, Jalandhar, Ludhiana, and Chandigarh
 
jimyvr
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
I would presume that they are looking into Fukuoka and Chitose for any future growth.

Not necessary.

Probably MUC-KIX or MUC-NGO is on the card.
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 15):
Also, foreign investment in Punjab is really taking off... especially in places like Amritsar, Jalandhar, Ludhiana, and Chandigarh

Talking of Ludhiana, isn't a new airport being built there too? Could this hurt Amritsar considering that Ludhiana is in the centre of Punjab and therefore easier for people all over Punjab to access?

Location of Ludhiana

Also according to the economic map of Punjab below (click on link), Ludhiana seems to be closer to the all important "very high level" of economic development in Punjab - perhaps yields would be better fom Ludhiana?

Punjab's Level of Economic Development in relation to the rest of India

British Airways seem to agree. Commenting on Amritsar in 2000, British Airways' then General Manager for South Asia Alan Briggs said:

"If Punjab makes an international airport at a central place, say Ludhiana, there will be a big potential for international carriers to immediately launch their operations. Further, a town like Ludhiana can also generate both first class and business class traffic."

Source: Click Here

Do you think things have changed since 2000...or is Ludhiana still better placed to attract major international destinations?
 
Vimanav
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 17):
Do you think things have changed since 2000...or is Ludhiana still better placed to attract major international destinations?

Its often quite easy for airline expat managers who go on their once a career visit to the hinterlands of different states to mouth statements like what Alan Briggs made in 2000.

He is not wrong in adding that big "if" in between. Knowing the pace of development in India, I would safely bet 15 years for a world class international airport to come up in Ludhiana... that is if they first agree to have one there. ATQ will never diminish in relative importance because the thousands of pilgrims who come to visit the Golden Temple will not opt to fly to LUH. Even though LUH is an economic hub, the distances are really not that much to justify having a new airport there especially when ATQ is just 78 nm away. By the way all the talk of a new airport for Punjab is now centered around Jalandhar, fyki.

rgds//Vimanav
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Vimanav
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:15 pm

Also read somewhere that LH was planning to have 10 destinations in India by 2010 with CCU being their sixth. I can imagine them evaluating AMD, ATQ and COK as potential new destinations but I cringe at their 10th destination... PNQ? JAI? GAU? BBI? GOI (Condor did fly charters in there)? where?

rgds//Vimanav
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:30 pm

Thanks Vimanav for your info.

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 18):
would safely bet 15 years for a world class international airport to come up in Ludhiana... that is if they first agree to have one there...By the way all the talk of a new airport for Punjab is now centered around Jalandhar, fyki.

I have just looked on the internet and it seems 2 new airports have been given the green light by the Punjab State Government and the Union Government in Delhi!

A new domestic airport will open in Pathankot and an international airport with cargo facilities will open in Ludhiana (to be built in Halwara airbase - apparently confirmation will come in two days, 9 Dec).

According to Chief Secretary K.R. Lakhanpal:

"All formalities for the development of the civil airport vis a vis feasibility report, clearance from the Ministry of Defence and Airport Authority of India have come. We are just awaiting the Cabinet approval which should come in another week's time. Still I have to meet the Civil Aviation Secretary on December 9 and this issue will be discussed there."

Source: Meeting for Halwara Airport on Dec 9, says Chief Secy

The Punjab State Government has already started purchasing land around the airport!

According to Indian media, (perhaps some Indian a.netters can shed some light here), one of the principle reasons for building the airport is due to demands made by the business community for an airport with cargo facilities - Mukesh Ambabi, the head of Reliance Industries is mentioned....???

It looks like Punjab is enjoying a period of massive growth in civil aviation infrastructure and services!
 
cricket
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 5):
Maybe someone can tell us if ATQ is A340 compatible?

It is 777/330 compatible as AI and 9W use those planes from ATQ. If LH has said that ATQ then why are people trying to tell them to go to AMD on this forum.  Smile If they have said ATQ next then it must be ATQ next. I'm pretty sure that LH will serve both cities by late 2007!
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 21):
I'm pretty sure that LH will serve both cities by late 2007!

I agree, but I think AMD, with its position as the gateway to India's industrial heartland (Gujarat), yield may be slightly higher there.

But Amritsar must surely have something going for it; just look at the boom in services since 2005! Who would have thought ATQ would have direct flights to YYZ, DME, LHR, BHX, DXB, SN and now it seems FRA!

How will a new international airport in Ludhiana impact ATQ - they are only 90m/145km apart?
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:55 am

LUH is also closer to DEL... I dont know id an airport can be successful yet in Ludhiana.
 
Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 23):
LUH is also closer to DEL... I dont know id an airport can be successful yet in Ludhiana.

Agreed, buyt DEL-LUH is still 277km away and takes over five hours by car and slightly over three hours by train!

I have checked on the internet and it seems Ludhiana does have ICAO and IATA codes.

ICAO: VILD
IATA: LUH

I think this is the case because it is currently an air force base.
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:55 am

I guess if Ludhiana, chandigarh, jallandhar and amritsar all become major hubs with delhi, then we can see very busy skies just like what we have over JFK, EWR, PHL, LGA, maybe BWI.

More and more delays is what i think will eventually happen. nonetheless, good for punjab and Indian aviation.
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stirling
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:19 am

You guys are killing me with the codes! The hover feature doesn't recognize many of them.

Anyway,

I have been wondering what is the deal with India's 33rd Largest City, and why it seems to have international services that other, more larger Indian cities do not have? What makes Amritstar so special and unique over all these other cities?


2001 Census
1 Mumbai (Bombay) 16,368,000
2 Kolkata (Calcutta) 13,217,000
3 Delhi 12,791,000
4 Chennai 6,425,000
5 Bangalore 5,687,000
6 Hyderabad 5,534,000
7 Ahmadabad 4,519,000
8 Pune 3,756,000
9 Surat 2,811,000
10 Kanpur 2,690,000
11 Jaipur 2,324,000
12 Lucknow 2,267,000
13 Nagpur 2,123,000
14 Patna 1,707,000
15 Indore 1,639,044
16 Vadodara 1,492,000
17 Bhopal 1,455,000
18 Coimbatore 1,446,000
19 Ludhiana 1,395,000
20 Kochi 1,355,000
21 Visakhapatnam 1,329,000
22 Agra 1,321,000
23 Varanasi 1,212,000
24 Madurai 1,195,000
25 Meerut 1,167,000
26 Nashik 1,152,000
27 Jabalpur 1,117,000
28 Jamshedpur 1,102,000
29 Asansol 1,090,000
30 Dhanbad 1,064,000
31 Faridabad 1,055,000
32 Allahabad 1,050,000
33 Amritsar 1,011,000
34 Vijayawada 1,011,000
35 Rajkot 1,002,000
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mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 26):
What makes Amritstar so special and unique over all these other cities?

I think many people living in this city have lots of family members living overseas-toronto, london etc. These people travel frequently, whether it be winter, summer, rain or sun, so the pax load is extremely high.

Earlier all these pax would haul their luggage via train or buses/even taxis and cars to DEL, not anymore.

Also, Punjab is one of the most prospering state in India. The Sikh people are settled in almost every country across the world and what better way to connect to their state and their roots-is an airport that is in the heart of Punjab. ludhiana, chandigarh and even jalandhar didn't rise to the occasion, amritsar did, so now you see tons of intl. airlines fly there, LH will follow soon.

I am sure there are other more important reasons but this is what i think  Smile
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 27):
Mk777

You are correct.

In Britain for example, there is a very large Punjabi/Sikh population, and the vast majority are very successful and have above average incomes (like most of the Indian community in Britain). Before Amritsar airport gained its international status, thousands of Punjabis had to use Delhi airport and then endure either a 4/5 hour train journey or a 7/8 hour drive to Punjab!

Also, it is important to remember that the city of Amritsar itself is quite important to Sikhs. Their holiest shrine (Golden Temple) is located in the city and many Sikhs visit from the around the world every year.

http://magicplanet.org/catalog/images/india_amritsar_01.jpg
 
Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:44 am

Jet Airways to increase Amritsar - Heathrow to six weekly

According to forum posts by staff at Amritsar Travel:

"Jet Airways is pleased to announce that between 23 January and 28 February, 2007, there will be an increased frequency of flights between London and Amritsar.

The schedule and flight timing will be as follows:


9W123 LHR 2135 ATQ 1135 (Days 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

9W124 ATQ 1350 LHR 1740 (Days 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)"


Source: Click Here

Has anyone heard anything official from 9W? If true, then maybe Jet is doing well on this route - great news! Amritsar seems to be attracting services rapidly!
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:55 am

Like i said. Bring any airline to ATQ and you will be able to fill it up. hehehe!!

be it 9W, AI, SQ, LH etc etc.
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Blackbird
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:35 am

Isn't Amritsar that place where some British General had like 1,500 Indians gunned down in 1919?
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 31):
Isn't Amritsar that place where some British General had like 1,500 Indians gunned down in 1919?

Yes. General Dyer. Quite an a**hole i must add. "Jallianwala Bagh massacre"
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 31):
Isn't Amritsar that place where some British General had like 1,500 Indians gunned down in 1919?

From Wikipedia:

"The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, also known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in Amritsar, where, on April 13, 1919, British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. Official sources place the casualties at 379. According to private sources, the number was over 1000, with more than 1200 wounded, [1] and Civil Surgeon Dr Smith indicated that they were over 1800."

In terms of geographic location, Amritsar is located north of Delhi (257m / 413km) and near the border with Pakistan:

 
Kevin777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 19):
Also read somewhere that LH was planning to have 10 destinations in India by 2010 with CCU being their sixth. I can imagine them evaluating AMD, ATQ and COK as potential new destinations but I cringe at their 10th destination... PNQ? JAI? GAU? BBI? GOI (Condor did fly charters in there)? where?

I'm also curious as to what the next ones are going to be, after ATQ and AMD. COK: I would be very surprised, too small. PNQ: Well, guess it's too close to BOM; adding cap/freq or both on BOM might be wiser. In general I think they would be better off improving frequencies on the Indian routes (6-7 or so) before adding new ones. GOI, thought Condor still did that.. but anyways, not LH-potential; 95 % leisure and only in the wintertime (the other routes can go year-round, although they are seasonal of course). Jaipur? Yeah, could be, a few years down the line; fairly large, biz and a little leisure + VFR, not too seasonal, and it would make the BOM-AMD-JAI-DEL complete..

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 15):
ATQ will work very well. LH will be able to capitalize the numerous NRIs in SFO, ORD, NYC, YVR, YYZ, IAH, LAX... etc.

Well I think this is the problem - it would primarily be good for connecting pax, and basing a route just on connecting pax is not a sound idea IMO. The nonstop, or at least Europe-originating customers would be the butter on the toast for that route, and I think that they are simply not there..

Kevin777  Smile
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cricket
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 34):
PNQ: Well, guess it's too close to BOM; adding cap/freq or both on BOM might be wiser.

Well, despite the Expressway, it still takes at least 3 hours on a good day to get from BOM airport to the outskirts of Pune (usually four hours and on a bad day if you catch the worst traffic it will take six). PNQ needs international connectivity particularly with the massive amounts of investment pouring into the neighbouring area - Volkswagen, GM, Fiat - Pune is becoming a hub and could do some amount of direct connectivity, but unless the city gets a bigger and better airport thats unlikely.

Either that, or the Indian Railways should build their first super high-speed rail-line between Mumbai and Pune.
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 34):
Well I think this is the problem - it would primarily be good for connecting pax, and basing a route just on connecting pax is not a sound idea IMO. The nonstop, or at least Europe-originating customers would be the butter on the toast for that route, and I think that they are simply not there..


While I agree with you that the majority of pax on a LH flight to ATQ would be connecting from the US and Canada etc (unlike 9W's LHR-ATQ), I don't think that is particularly a bad thing. What is Emirates, if not an airline heavily reliant upon connecting traffic...and it seems to be doing well? For example, would Dubai really need 49 flights a week to Australia if if didn't have the hoards of people from Europe (especially the UK) connecting in DXB?

Come to think of it, doesn't LH already have a high reliance upon connecting traffic from the US and Canada to fill up flights to India, more so than carriers like VS, BA, 9W etc? I know AF and KL certainly do!

Incidentally, there are sizeable numbers of Punjabis settled in continental Europe, particularly Spain, France and Germany, although far, far smaller than Britain and North America.
 
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:09 am

I think ATQ will work. LH connects to almost every city in the US and canada. Take any big city in these 2 countries and you will find tons of punjus wanting to go directly to punjab and Amritsar is the answer.

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 36):
Incidentally, there are sizeable numbers of Punjabis settled in continental Europe, particularly Spain, France and Germany, although far, far smaller than Britain and North America.

You are right. I have seen lots of punjabis at VIE and on OS trying to fly to DEL and then taking a taxi or train to Punjab. These are all people who live in Europe, they were speaking German and all.

So I think any airline coming into ATQ will do extrememly well.  Smile
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Kevin777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 35):
Well, despite the Expressway, it still takes at least 3 hours on a good day to get from BOM airport to the outskirts of Pune (usually four hours and on a bad day if you catch the worst traffic it will take six). PNQ needs international connectivity particularly with the massive amounts of investment pouring into the neighbouring area - Volkswagen, GM, Fiat - Pune is becoming a hub and could do some amount of direct connectivity, but unless the city gets a bigger and better airport thats unlikely.

Well, true. I guess this would be the same as many EU airlines serving several US East Coast cities, even though they are well connected on the ground. So when PNQ gets ready for international widebody traffic (apparently it isn't according to another thread out there) I guess it could happen, but give it five years or so. Also, if/when a new airport in Navi Mumbai will be reality (far, far down the line though probably) it would be a serious competitor for PNQ.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 35):
Either that, or the Indian Railways should build their first super high-speed rail-line between Mumbai and Pune.

And that will happen the day the A350 starts commercial service..

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 36):
What is Emirates, if not an airline heavily reliant upon connecting traffic...and it seems to be doing well?

Very true. But I think EK has a competitive advantage over many European carriers for instance; most notably because of low wages (because of low/nonexisting taxes), high support from the Dubai government (indirectly through development of DXB etc.)... free fuel..  duck  .. okay, that's another thread! Anyways, LH doesn't have any competitive advantage over other European carriers doing 6th freedom US-India, and LH would be at a disadvantage to the increasing number of ns flight US-India (although not ATQ in any near future!).

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 36):
For example, would Dubai really need 49 flights a week to Australia if if didn't have the hoards of people from Europe (especially the UK) connecting in DXB?

NOPE! They could probably fill a weekly E145!  Smile

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 36):
Come to think of it, doesn't LH already have a high reliance upon connecting traffic from the US and Canada to fill up flights to India, more so than carriers like VS, BA, 9W etc? I know AF and KL certainly do!



Don't know if they have more than VS, BA etc., but they at least have a significant part, no doubt about it, and without it a lot of the traffic to India couldn't survive. However, I think that most of these pax are VFR, and they do their job filling up the back of the cabin - however, on a route to ATQ I think LH would be lacking the C-pax who originate in Germany/EU - and who pay the premiums at the end of the day. Also, the route would lack high yield pax originating in the U.S. Surely, 6th freedom can take you a long way, but I think that at the end of the day it's tough in that market because you don't have an edge over many others - which is also becoming the M.E. carriers achilles heal.

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mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:33 am

Pardon my ignorance, what is a 6th freedom flight?
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Kevin777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 39):
Pardon my ignorance, what is a 6th freedom flight?

An airline from country B flying pax between A and C via B on traffic rights from A to B and B to C....

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mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 40):
An airline from country B flying pax between A and C via B on traffic rights from A to B and B to C....

What is the difference b/w a 5th freedom flight or any other # freedom flight if they exist?
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Concorde001
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:02 am

Thanks for your replies Kevin777  Wink

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 38):
however, on a route to ATQ I think LH would be lacking the C-pax who originate in Germany/EU - and who pay the premiums at the end of the day.

I was about to agree with you, but then I read this:

Volkswagen given go-ahead to build Rs.15bn ($330m) car plant in Punjab

"Punjab state government said it has approved Volkswagen AG's plans to set up a manufacturing plant at a cost of 15 bln rupees.

The approval came after the company's India head Peter Walters and other officials met Amarinder Singh, chief minister of northern Punjab state, where the plant will be opened.

'The Punjab government cleared the super mega car manufacturing project of 15 billion rupees to be set up by the German automobile company, Volkswagen,' a Punjab government statement said in a release.

Singh said the unit will make 100,000 vehicles a year, with annual turnover expected to be 7 bln rupees.

The chief minister said the plant will employ 5,000 people and generate potential work for another 50,000."


I think this is one of the reasons why Lufthansa wants to fly to Amritsar! With VW executives flying to Punjab visiting what is clearly going to be a massive factory is probably worth alot of £££ for LH.

What do you think?
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 41):

I think fifth freedom is something like this. Say EK flies DXB-SYD-AKL. It is allowed to carry pax from SYD-AKL originating from SYD.

Sixth freedom is pax from SYD can goto LHR via DXB on EK. As far as I know 6th freedom is automatic whereas fifth freedom has to be approved by intermediate and final countries. Australia and NZ in this case.

Hope tht helps. Correct me if i am wrong.

Cheers
 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 43):
Hope tht helps

thanks, that helps, is there 1, 2 3 or 4 freedom rights as well?
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Feroze
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:11 am

 
mk777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting Feroze (Reply 45):

thanks feroze, i got it now... Smile
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Kevin777
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RE: Lufthansa Eyes Amritsar As Its Next Indian City!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 42):
I think this is one of the reasons why Lufthansa wants to fly to Amritsar! With VW executives flying to Punjab visiting what is clearly going to be a massive factory is probably worth alot of ??? for LH.

What do you think?

Well, that's an entirely different story, now it has a lot more substance to it, seems very likely now..!

Kevin777
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