gnieob797
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777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:19 am

According to A.net's aircraft data specs, the 773 has wings that fold. Is this true? And if so, does anyone have pictures?
 
gigneil
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:22 am

Absolutely not.

There was a folding wing option offered during the initial studies of the 777-200 but it was not desirable nor was the engineering for it ever done.

NS
 
jycarlisle
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Gnieob797 (Thread starter):
According to A.net's aircraft data specs, the 773 has wings that fold. Is this true?

Perhaps it's the curvature of the wing? I really can't see the T7s having a winglet at the end IMHO and the aerodynamics of the wing is one of the things that amazes me about the craft.


Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
but it was not desirable

Oh it was desirable, but it was too complex and heavy.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
gigneil
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:27 am

Heh, hence why it wasn't desirable.

NS
 
gnieob797
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:35 am

Thanks. The data made it look like the wing, after folding, was 50% it's original size.
 
remcor
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:08 am

I remember reading an article way back in the day when they were first hashing out the 777 conceptual design. The article did mention that Boeing was considering a folding-wing design so that it could fit in tight gates. However this was just in the design concept phase and obviously the 777 that was built never had such a wing.
 
cba
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:36 am

If I remember correctly, during the design phase, AA requested that the 777 be able to squeeze into smaller gates at DFW, and Boeing proposed folding wings to accommodate this. It never wound up happening due to lack of interest.
 
pygmalion
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:40 am

The folding wing option was designed and included in the static and fatigue test aircraft. (one wing on each) It passed all the testing and could have been certified. No one ever ordered it, including AA who asked Boeing for it. It's still on the drawings for the -200.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:21 am

You might yet see if if the Airforce goes with a 777 tanker.

Ruscoe
 
777wt
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 7):
If I remember correctly, during the design phase, AA requested that the 777 be able to squeeze into smaller gates at DFW, and Boeing proposed folding wings to accommodate this. It never wound up happening due to lack of interest.

LGA was in the plan as well...can't even believe they would think of using a 777 there...
 
stirling
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 10):
LGA was in the plan as well...can't even believe they would think of using a 777 there...

It's not too hard to believe.
The DC-10 and L-1011 were the result of airlines wanting to send 250 people from Chicago to LaGuardia.
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cba
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting 777WT (Reply 10):
LGA was in the plan as well...can't even believe they would think of using a 777 there...

Cripes, could it even make it on/off of those runways? If so, it actually wouldn't be a bad idea, that place is so crowded it's ridiculous. They need to roll back frequencies with larger aircraft. Are there restrictions against wide bodies into LGA, or is that just DCA?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 7):
If I remember correctly, during the design phase, AA requested that the 777 be able to squeeze into smaller gates at DFW, and Boeing proposed folding wings to accommodate this. It never wound up happening due to lack of interest.

It wasn't so much DFW as it was ORD. We've never really had a problem with real estate here  Wink

What ultimately killed the wingtips were the fact that aircraft without the mechanism would still carry some unnecessary structural weight. That lead JAL to abjectly refuse the 777 if it carried the OEW penalty, and it wasn't a feature anyone really felt like pushing.
 
highflyer9790
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting Gnieob797 (Reply 5):
The data made it look like the wing, after folding, was 50% it's original size.

Even if they went through with the wing fold option it would only fold the windgtips cutting off about 10-20 feet each wing..
121
 
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litz
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:31 pm

BTW -

The mechanisms for the folding wings ARE in use presently, although not on a 777 ... Boeing re-used the latches and engineering for the big transporter they built out of the 747 for the 787 hull sections.

They're used to latch the swing-tail onto the fuselage.

- litz
 
707437
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:43 pm

Well of course it was a requirement for the Navy F/A-777 program along with a catapult strut on the nosewheel and a tailhook. . . HAHAHA

But seriously as far as I remember there isn't any fuel tankage outboard of the wing fold line. . . Or is there?
 
Mir
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 12):
Are there restrictions against wide bodies into LGA, or is that just DCA?

LGA has a wingspan restriction. Not-so-coincidentially, the 767-400's wingspan just squeaks in under that restriction.  Wink

-Mir
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YYZatcboy
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:54 pm

Just imagine the first time the folded wing fails in flight. That would be scary...
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ncelhr
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
Just imagine the first time the folded wing fails in flight. That would be scary...

I can't imagine a second time since the aircraft would have most probably crashed.
 Smile

That said, foldable wing technology has gone a very long way. Navy planes have folding wings for storage on aircraft carriers. Were talking about jet fighters which subject their pilots to several Gs.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:49 pm

Could you imagine the look on the faces of some passengers, as they see the wing tips fold up approaching the gate, or even worse folding down taxiing out.

I will never forget my wifes concern when travelling on a DHC dash 8, when the undercarriage doors in the engine nacelles opened.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
Heh, hence why it wasn't desirable.

Ah, I see your angle now.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
You might yet see if if the Airforce goes with a 777 tanker.

 checkmark 

Quoting 707437 (Reply 16):
But seriously as far as I remember there isn't any fuel tankage outboard of the wing fold line. . . Or is there?

No. Fuel storage would have stopped at the folding point.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
Just imagine the first time the folded wing fails in flight. That would be scary...

I don't believe that has ever happened on a military aircraft.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 20):
I will never forget my wifes concern when travelling on a DHC dash 8, when the undercarriage doors in the engine nacelles opened.

That's when you say something like: "S**t! It's not supposed to do that!" Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
777236ER
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):

There was a folding wing option offered during the initial studies of the 777-200 but it was not desirable nor was the engineering for it ever done.

Wrong. The engineering was completed and Boeing went so far as to complete the wing ultimate load test with a folding wing.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Continental
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 21):
Ah, I see your angle now.

There's a difference between the desire to HAVE and the desire to PRODUCE.  Smile
 
cubastar
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:43 am

Slightly off topic, but the Navy Chance Vought F8 Crusader has actually flown several times (inadvertently) with it's wingtips in the folded position.
 
777wt
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 12):
Cripes, could it even make it on/off of those runways? If so, it actually wouldn't be a bad idea, that place is so crowded it's ridiculous. They need to roll back frequencies with larger aircraft. Are there restrictions against wide bodies into LGA, or is that just DCA?

I work at LGA in aircraft maintenance and I can tell you DL does come to LGA with a 767, AA does once in a while too.

A long time ago DL came to LGA with a 747. Then it couldn't take off! A RTO was done, the plane deboarded and all the pax was taken by bus to JFK and cargo too while the DL 747 repositioned to JFK and picked up everything it has let off in LGA.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 26):
A long time ago DL came to LGA with a 747. Then it couldn't take off! A RTO was done, the plane deboarded and all the pax was taken by bus to JFK and cargo too while the DL 747 repositioned to JFK and picked up everything it has let off in LGA.

I have never heard of a 747 at LGA. Could you please elaborate on this?

Why would DL even thing of diverting to LGA if LGA could even handle a 747?

This doesn't make any sense what so ever.
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Poitin
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
Just imagine the first time the folded wing fails in flight. That would be scary...

So, for how many years has the US navy been buying airplanes with folding wings? Somehow, I think they got the bugs worked out of it about 65 years ago.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
AirplaneFan
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Gnieob797 (Thread starter):
does anyone have pictures

Rgds,

AirplaneFan
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Boeing Nut
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Gnieob797 (Thread starter):
And if so, does anyone have pictures?

This was the only "photo" I could find so far...

Big version: Width: 700 Height: 400 File size: 49kb
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
There was a folding wing option offered during the initial studies of the 777-200 but it was not desirable nor was the engineering for it ever done.
Wrong. The engineering was completed and Boeing went so far as to complete the wing ultimate load test with a folding wing.

This is correct with one small correction. One wing of the test aircraft had the solid wing and the other was the folding wing.

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I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
trekster
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:02 am

Flight sim had alont of civil planes that can do that

 Smile
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prebennorholm
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:01 am

Originally Boeing offered the 777 with three different wing options:

- a folding wing with which it would fit into any DC-10 / MD-11 / L-1015 gate
- a somewhat lighter unfoldable wing which could later be modified into a folding wing
- an even lighter fixed wing which could not be modified.

The fuel tank layout was identical in all three wings.

The folding option made it through certification, but was never sold. The price and weight penalty was quite substantial.

the 772LR and the 773ER do not offer the folding option. The space reserved for the folding mechanism is taken up by mainly fuel tanks, but also by strengthened structure.

The idea is old. Also the 757 and 767 were proposed with wing folding aimed at fitting into 727 gates. But if memory serves me well, then those projects were cancelled on the design stage and never built, tested, certified. I could be wrong on the latter, it is so long time ago.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 28):
So, for how many years has the US navy been buying airplanes with folding wings? Somehow, I think they got the bugs worked out of it about 65 years ago.

and ships were sailing for thousands of years, but as soon as we got cocky, Titanic.... Never say never. there is ALWAYS a chance something will go wrong.
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stirling
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 27):
Why would DL even thing of diverting to LGA if LGA could even handle a 747?

Especially with so many OTHER airports in the region that COULD handle it.

Quoting Cba (Reply 12):
Cripes, could it even make it on/off of those runways?

If an airline did schedule a 777 into LGA, it would most likely be to/from ORD, DFW, MIA, MCO, or ATL, and in that case it would need less than a quarter of its normal long-haul fuel load.
Being lighter, LGA's 7,000 feet is NO PROBLEM!

Quoting Poitin (Reply 28):
So, for how many years has the US navy been buying airplanes with folding wings?

And then there is VG (Variable Geometry) such as found on the FB-111, B-1, and a few others. Changing the shape of wings is nothing new and proven technology.
The only thing preventing it (folding wings) from being implemented on the 777 is the cost of the mechanisms. Airlines will not pay for anything unnecessary.
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Thorny
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 35):
And then there is VG (Variable Geometry) such as found on the FB-111, B-1, and a few others. Changing the shape of wings is nothing new and proven technology.

Add to this list the drop-nose of the Concorde. Did this ever deploy by accident in mid-flight?
 
prebennorholm
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 34):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 28):
So, for how many years has the US navy been buying airplanes with folding wings? Somehow, I think they got the bugs worked out of it about 65 years ago.

and ships were sailing for thousands of years, but as soon as we got cocky, Titanic.... Never say never. there is ALWAYS a chance something will go wrong.

To produce folding wings is piece of cake compared to "folding landing" gears, which of course is a must on any airliner.

And the loads on folding wings is a lot more predictable than landings gears.

Swing wings as found on MiG-23/-27, Tornado, F-111 etc. is a lot more demanding since they have to swing under load.

Foldable wings ia a minor engineering challenge. It is a question about money and weight.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:59 pm

The Added weight offset the plan.
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gigneil
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
Wrong. The engineering was completed and Boeing went so far as to complete the wing ultimate load test with a folding wing.

I would LOVE to see some evidence of that.

NS
 
pygmalion
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RE: 777-300 Folding Wings

Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 39):
I would LOVE to see some evidence of that

Watch "21st Century Jet", they have copies on Utube. They show the wing breaking at 154% of Ultimate and I think they mention the folding wing. It was on the right side IIRC.