AJMIA
Topic Author
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:10 pm

The other day at MIA I was assisting a passenger flying to CCS. His hand luggage consisted of a small back pack and a lunch tote size cooler. The cooler contained eight small cylinder shaped bags. Each bag contained a small amount of water, a lot of air and one Siamese fighting fish (these fish originally came from still and shallow rice paddies and breath air from the atmosphere).

I realize that water is a liquid, but since there was live fish in it I decided to speak with the supervisor at the TSA check point.

Me: "May my passenger please carry these little fish on?"

TSA: "No it is liquid."

Me: "But it is only water."

TSA: "I don't know that."

Me: "It has fish living in it. If it was not water the fish would die."

TSA: "Listen, if you passenger wants to take them they have to be packed in the ORIGINAL container of less than 3.4 ounces and be in a zip bag."

Me: "But fish are born. They don't come in original containers. They come from the pet store."

TSA: (over his shoulder as he walks off for coffee) "Then they can't go."


So, I spent the rest of the day babysitting orphaned fish and trying to contact the passenger's Miami relatives... Who ended up getting mad at me for the inconvenience when they had to return to the airport to get the fish.

Is there any fluid that could be used to make a bomb that would sustain a fish? I don't think so.

Have we taken this liquid ban too far? I think probably yes.

Do TSA supervisor's have any free reign to use their good common sense in these types of situations?

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
N353SK
Posts: 834
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:15 pm

The supervisor was just doing his job. He has absolutely zero leeway with the rules and did the right thing. None of the TSA workers enjoyed taking away sunscreen from rampers for those first two weeks, but they did it because that's what the rules said.
 
AJMIA
Topic Author
Posts: 431
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 1):
The supervisor was just doing his job. He has absolutely zero leeway with the rules

OK good, because the impression I got from him was that he could care less.

Maybe some of these rules should be changed. The idea should be to keep us safe, not drive us crazy.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
baron95
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:59 pm

If he cared so much about the fish, spend $40 bucks at an airport store, buy a small suitecase, put the tote cooler with the fish in it and check it.

We don't need to waste people's time, when the solution is simple. Somehow travelers and even airline agents seem to turn stupid when they get to airport.

Failing that, wrap the fish in a condom, swallow them, and p%#$ them out the next day. Seems to work well for cocaine.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
baron95
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:05 pm

Rats, after the last post a terrible though came to me, which just proves the foolishness of the liquid ban.

If in fact small amounts of liquid (like 4 ounces) can be turned into a bomb on board, what prevents a terrorist fromw swallowing liquid explosives (or ingredients) wrapped in a condom or other sealed plastic device just before the TSA checkpoint and once past the checkpoint inducing vomit, retrieving the explosive and assembling the bomb?

Why put millions of people a day through the incovenience, when it would have no effect whatsoever on a determined terrorist. Just silly.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 4):
If in fact small amounts of liquid (like 4 ounces) can be turned into a bomb on board, what prevents a terrorist fromw swallowing liquid explosives (or ingredients) wrapped in a condom or other sealed plastic device just before the TSA checkpoint and once past the checkpoint inducing vomit, retrieving the explosive and assembling the bomb?

I've been saying this since the liquid ban was put in place. When will we realize we can't prevent everything and that we should concentrate on living life rather than constantly living in fear? Shit happens. Get on with life. I love the US but this "Al Qaeda is around every corner and is out to get you!!!" paranoia really needs to stop. Get on with life already.

Kris
 
717SK
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:57 pm

When I was leaving RSW (Ft Myers, FL) going back to Europe last month I found 3 post cards that I forgot to mail. Loocking for a maildrop all around the airport I finnaly found out that they didnt have any. This was due to that RSW was the first new termianl build after 9-11. I can understand no lockers but no mail box? It could be at the curb-side, not in the terminal. What about all other airports in the US?
 
AJMIA
Topic Author
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 3):
If he cared so much about the fish, spend $40 bucks at an airport store, buy a small suitecase, put the tote cooler with the fish in it and check it.

I doubt the fish would survive. Live animals my not be checked in baggage. Dogs & cats may go in the cargo compartment if they are in proper kennels and have been manifested.

Quoting 717SK (Reply 6):
When I was leaving RSW (Ft Myers, FL) going back to Europe last month I found 3 post cards that I forgot to mail. Looking for a maildrop all around the airport I finally found out that they didn't have any. This was due to that RSW was the first new terminal build after 9-11. I can understand no lockers but no mail box? It could be at the curb-side, not in the terminal. What about all other airports in the US?

MIA has mailboxes in the terminal before the security check point.
If you were already inside security when you realized you still had the cards I am sure the gate agent would have been happy to drop them in the mail at the end of their shift. I am always mailing items for passengers.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
This whole liquid ban is stupid and ridiculous, it does not stop the real terrorists from their plans but it does affect the lifes of millions of passengers every day who have to undergo senseless procedures at airports.

9/11 could have been prevented by coordinating the surveillance reports of various police and secret services. This has hopefully been changed and let's duly hope that the passenger information gathered before people reach airports works well in combination with the secret surveillances of the potential "customers" who can be clearly defined and targeted.

Yes! Very well put. We need to target our efforts and resources to the real threats.


AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
prosa
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 3):
Failing that, wrap the fish in a condom, swallow them, and p%#$ them out the next day. Seems to work well for cocaine.

Too risky. They were Siamese Fighting Fish. They could chew their way through the condom and then eat the guy's abdomen from the inside. What a horrible death  Smile
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
gift4tbone
Posts: 570
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 5):
I've been saying this since the liquid ban was put in place. When will we realize we can't prevent everything and that we should concentrate on living life rather than constantly living in fear? Shit happens. Get on with life. I love the US but this "Al Qaeda is around every corner and is out to get you!!!" paranoia really needs to stop. Get on with life already.

I've added u to my respected users list..small as it is. I 100% agree with that post! We need to stop with this Terror is everywhere. When will we be able to be FREE AMERICANS again? From the day this whole thing started (I was in DTW for NW ramp training), I said it was too much, and this whole 3-1-1 thing is a joke as well. The TSA needs to realize that this is only inconviencing PAX, and isn't making flying anymore secure. Even my chapstick has to be placed in a zip-lock bag.

Even as a worker, they do ramdom screens before we enter the SIDA area, what a joke. If we wanted to do something, we could just use the other doors! And some days they check our airport IDs as we're leaving. LEAVING?! Hello, whats the point of checking our badges when we're on our way home?

There comes a point where safety and security infers on our rights as americans, and I believe this has crossed that line. And to think it all began with the "Patriot Act" Funny how they call it the "PATRIOT" Act....

Just my 2 cents

-Tony@PVD
Top 3 airports: PVD 23.9%(138 flights), PHL 14.7%(85 flights), PHX 10.2%(59 flights)
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 7):
I doubt the fish would survive. Live animals my not be checked in baggage. Dogs & cats may go in the cargo compartment if they are in proper kennels and have been manifested.

Hugh? The fish where in a sealed plastic bags with water and air. The individual bags were further enclosed in a cooler. What difference does it make if the fish go on checked luggage or the cabin? If dogs survive, fish will survive - it is only a 2 hr or so flight from MIA to CCS. You will be surprised what kinds of live s%#$ people put in checked lugagge. Even aligators have traveled that way  Smile
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
AJMIA
Topic Author
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 10):
Hugh? The fish where in a sealed plastic bags with water and air. The individual bags were further enclosed in a cooler. What difference does it make if the fish go on checked luggage or the cabin? If dogs survive, fish will survive - it is only a 2 hr or so flight from MIA to CCS. You will be surprised what kinds of live s%#$ people put in checked lugagge. Even aligators have traveled that way

Yes, but I thought it might get too cold for them. They are a tropical fish. If they get thrown around they might get too stressed and die. Lastly if they ended up on their side, I doubt there would not be enough water in the long plastic cylendar bags to cover them.

And most importantly... AA does not allow living animals in passenger checked baggage. I could have checked them in with a release in case they died, but after much discussioin the passenger and I decided not to take the risk.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:41 am

Reminds me of something I've been curious about. Sorry for being slightly off topic.

Looking at Canada and the USA, Since 9/11/01 how many real terrorists have been found and stopped at an airport security point, that would NOT have been caught if it weren't for the increased security we've seen over the last couple years? Was it worth all that time, effort, money, and inconvenience?



CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
zvezda
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 1):
The supervisor was just doing his job. He has absolutely zero leeway with the rules and did the right thing. None of the TSA workers enjoyed taking away sunscreen from rampers for those first two weeks, but they did it because that's what the rules said.

No, the honorable thing for the TSA employees would have been to resign in the face of such stupid rules. No civil servant has the right to violate one's civil rights (including the right to travel) unless there is a compelling state interest (which is obviously not the case here). If the job requires it, then one must resign.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting 717SK (Reply 6):
I can understand no lockers but no mail box? It could be at the curb-side, not in the terminal. What about all other airports in the US?

ORD has at least one mail box (entire post office too) inside the airport, it is over by the playground near E&F I dropped a post card in it on Sunday. DTW World Gateway has a mailbox just as you walk into A it is on the right side, sort of close to the currency exchange. The DTW post office is over by the Berry Terminal. I go in there all the time to mail stuff, it is open until 12am and is close to my house. STL has a post office near the baggage claim. MSP has several mail boxes after security, as does MEM. DEN has a post office before security. I have used all of these to mail post cards and the like.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 10):
Hugh? The fish where in a sealed plastic bags with water and air. The individual bags were further enclosed in a cooler. What difference does it make if the fish go on checked luggage or the cabin? If dogs survive, fish will survive - it is only a 2 hr or so flight from MIA to CCS.

I have a friend who owns a bait shop and he has had special bait fish shipped on a plane before. They usually come in a big foam cooler, with some air tablets dissolved in the water. I had some Perch live for three days in my cooler in the back of my truck after a weekend of ice fishing. I ate them all, but gave one to a friend who still has it in his tank. That was six years ago.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 10):
You will be surprised what kinds of live s%#$ people put in checked lugagge

At Thanksgiving I always bring a ham bone home for the neighbors dog.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
bond007
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:51 am

Wouldn't the fish also be disallowed by the individual's airlines policies on live animals in the cabin. I know some airlines specifically only allow cats and dogs in the cabin.

...another alternative is of course to put the water in enough 3oz bottles to fill a ziploc bag, carry you empty cooler and empty cylindrical bags, then stick the fish in your pockets for the short time you go through security....and hope you are not patted down  Wink

....then once airside, remove the fish from your pockets very carefully (giving CPR if necessary), and fill up your bags again in the cooler with the 3oz bottle ...what a plan!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
exFATboy
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 2):

OK good, because the impression I got from him was that he could care less.

Well, in all fairness, he's probably a little tired of enforcing rules that he knows are absurd and yet has no real discretion about, and at the same time having Gods-only-know how many people a day asking for exemptions of one type or another ("I have to take my pills and it isn't fair that I have to pay $2 for another bottle of water..." - heard that one at TPA Sunday) or who have somehow managed to be under a rock for the last six months and still think they can bring, among other things, three-gallon jugs of beer on the plane (saw that at LAS Thanksgiving weekend.)

Yes, I agree the liquid ban is ridiculous - there are several good write-ups floating around the Internet describing how a binary-liquid explosive is virtually impossible to get aboard and detonate on an airplane. But the rules are in place and they're not that complicated to follow...and for the moment we're stuck with them.
 
A342
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
No, the honorable thing for the TSA employees would have been to resign in the face of such stupid rules. No civil servant has the right to violate one's civil rights (including the right to travel) unless there is a compelling state interest (which is obviously not the case here). If the job requires it, then one must resign.

You want to say these civil rights also apply to fish ? After all, the pax could travel.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
zvezda
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
You want to say these civil rights also apply to fish ? After all, the pax could travel.

The TSA don't restrict fish per se; they restrict water.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:27 am

I just wonder who does not know the rules by now? This is as ridiculous as the rule itself!

M
 
bond007
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RE: Live Fish & TSA Liquid Ban

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:01 am

If I might make the assumption you work for AA ... then forget about the TSA 'stupid rules', maybe you should be clear on those of the airline:

"Carry on pets: Only Cats & Dogs."

But since you said the flight was to CCS:

"No carry-on pets to/from Hawaii or Transatlantic/Transpacific or Central and South America. "

Quoting AJMIA (Thread starter):
So, I spent the rest of the day babysitting orphaned fish and trying to contact the passenger's Miami relatives... Who ended up getting mad at me for the inconvenience when they had to return to the airport to get the fish.

Shouldn't have got as far as the TSA, so it's only the airline that should be to blame for the 'stupid rules'. In fact the TSA did their job correctly ...stuck by the rules.

Quoting AJMIA (Thread starter):
Do TSA supervisor's have any free reign to use their good common sense in these types of situations?

Do Passenger Agents ???

Sorry if you don't work for AA, but I can only guess that the pet/animal carry-on rules are similar ... my apologies if not.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!

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