manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:44 pm

From the article,

"Qatar Airways is going to demand compensation for the delay," Baker said. "If we can get to a compensation arrangement with them, I will confirm the other two," he said.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another interesting comment is made about the status of the A350 commitment.

"Qatar Airways already has an agreement with Airbus on receiving compensation for the A350s for which it placed orders of 60 aircraft. But tinkering with the original design has led to delays. Al Baker has on many occasions said he is not worried about the status of the A350 as clauses on compensation are in place."
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:55 pm

Bargain deal. Buy 1 and get 1 free.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:57 pm

No chance of that. Buy 1, get one at cost, maybe.

NS
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:59 pm

Only ordering two frames always seemed a bit odd to me, though I understand they're tasked for DOH-LHR when they arrive, so adding two more can't hurt since it will give them some coverage should one go down for maintenance.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
rom the article,

"Qatar Airways is going to demand compensation for the delay," Baker said. "If we can get to a compensation arrangement with them, I will confirm the other two," he said.

Thats a misconception..he says that QR would "confirm" the other two, not order two more.

QF are supposed to take 60 odd 787s on order(out of a total 115 with options)..if QF says that "the planes are preforming as planned we will take rest of our order", does that mean they have ordered 55 more? No it doesn't...not to me at least...
"Up the Irons!"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Thats a misconception..he says that QR would "confirm" the other two, not order two more.

Confirming the other two would be ordering two more, yes, since presently they are not firmed.

N
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Thats a misconception..he says that QR would "confirm" the other two, not order two more.

Well he has two on order and two on option, so if he confirms the "other two", is that not a conversion of the two options to an order?

If he had said "our current two", then I would believe he was speaking of the two on order.
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
No chance of that. Buy 1, get one at cost, maybe.

Make it buy 1 and get the 2nd one for 90% off.

Frankly, Qatar has been a big mouth when it comes to compensation to increase pressure towards Airbus. Would be a joke to them if they receive small amount of compensation.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 7):
Would be a joke to them if they receive small amount of compensation.

The bigger joke would be on Airbus if QR cancelled their A350 order, which is some 50% of the current "firm" total for the program.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 1):
Bargain deal. Buy 1 and get 1 free.

Thank you for your valuable contribution. Let's follow your logic. They've ordered 2, and are now in negotations for their delayed A380's. If the compensation is satisfactory Mr. Baker says he'll firm up 2 more. What's the incentive for Airbus here? Give them compensation, so QR will agree with getting 2 FREE A380s? Afterall, buy 1 get one free, is buy 2 get 2 free, not? Well they've bought the first 2....

Airbus is obviously going to make money on the sale of 2 extra A380s, otherwise there wouldn't be much to negotiate about.

Back to the think board for you. Buy 1 get one free is not going to work here...  rotfl 
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 7):
Make it buy 1 and get the 2nd one for 90% off.

Airbus can't give away a $285 million dollar aircraft.

Like I say, cost, sure. Maybe close to cost on two. But they don't sell aircraft at a loss.

NS
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The bigger joke would be on Airbus if QR cancelled their A350 order, which is some 50% of the current "firm" total for the program

Stitch,

I dont think QR has firmed up that order. Or am I wrong?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
is that not a conversion of the two options to an 'order?

 checkmark 

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):
Confirming the other two would be ordering two more, yes, since presently they are not firmed.

 checkmark 

Indeed. Just ask yourself the question how many orders are there at the moment for the A380? Is it 149, 166 or around 230.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 Mor

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Stitch, I don't think QR has firmed up that order. Or am I wrong?

Knowing QR, probably not. They took a year to finalize their 777 order, so...

Still, 60 frames is a lot of frames. Airbus will certainly not roll over for QR on compensation or price, but I don't believe they're going to try and strong-arm them, either.

[Edited 2006-12-05 05:19:30]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):

Confirming the other two would be ordering two more, yes, since presently they are not firmed.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):

Well he has two on order and two on option, so if he confirms the "other two", is that not a conversion of the two options to an order?

If he had said "our current two", then I would believe he was speaking of the two on order.

It's semantics..I disagree (as stated per my example)......
"Up the Irons!"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:34 pm

Your example didn't make any sense.

NS
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
Your example didn't make any sense.

It was basically a direct correlation..whether you understand it or not, I stated it was a matter of semantics anyway...to which I disagreed with the OP...
"Up the Irons!"
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Airbus will certainly not roll over for QR on compensation or price, but I don't believe they're going to try and strong-arm them, either.

Agreed. QR will probably get what it wants. Consequently, if Mr. Baker keeps his word an Airbus doesn't release the news sooner then agreed  Wink , it's only a matter of time to see QR converting their options to orders.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
I dont think QR has firmed up that order. Or am I wrong?

You're correct, the order isn't firm yet.
 
keesje
Posts: 8854
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:55 pm

They ordered 2 sofar, they need at least 2 more to run any kind of reliable time table. Every knows so steep discounts at a.net only.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 Mor

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
It was basically a direct correlation..whether you understand it or not, I stated it was a matter of semantics anyway...to which I disagreed with the OP...

Well I guess I don't understand because the only other way I can interpret his statement is that he will "confirm" that he has two options, but I'm not sure what Airbus gets out of giving him additional compensation beyond what is contracted in exchange to get him to confirm that he might order two more A388s later...

I'm reminded of Wimpy in the "Popeye" cartoons - "I will gladly consider buying your product on Tuesday for some extra cash today".  Silly
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13465
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The bigger joke would be on Airbus if QR cancelled their A350 order, which is some 50% of the current "firm" total for the program.

Airbus has never counted QR's committment for the A350 as firm.

350 firm orders:
Air Europa - 10
Alafco - 12
CIT - 5
Eurofly - 3
Finnair - 9
ILFC - 16
Kingfisher - 5
TAM - 10
TAP - 10
US Airways - 20
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13465
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The bigger joke would be on Airbus if QR cancelled their A350 order, which is some 50% of the current "firm" total for the program.

Airbus has never counted QR's commitment for the A350 as firm.

350 firm orders:
Air Europa - 10
Alafco - 12
CIT - 5
Eurofly - 3
Finnair - 9
ILFC - 16
Kingfisher - 5
TAM - 10
TAP - 10
US Airways - 20
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:44 pm

What do I have to read here? It is:

"Get the first two later and cheaper, buy the other two for the price you once signed."

Besides, it would be a new order, options are not firm orders.

Anyway, Al Baker could firm the A350 deal at the same time he orders the additional 2 A380s.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
astuteman
Posts: 6345
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 10):
Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 7):
Make it buy 1 and get the 2nd one for 90% off.

Airbus can't give away a $285 million dollar aircraft.

Like I say, cost, sure.

Maybe 90% off an A380 list price off is "cost"  Wink
What are Airbus worrying about?  biggrin 

Regards
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
"Qatar Airways already has an agreement with Airbus on receiving compensation for the A350s for which it placed orders of 60 aircraft. But tinkering with the original design has led to delays. Al Baker has on many occasions said he is not worried about the status of the A350 as clauses on compensation are in place."

I'll have some more details shortly but these headlines are typical Al Baker talk

*QATAR AIRWAYS MAY TURN TO BOEING IF FURTHER DELAYS IN A350
*QATAR AIRWAYS MAY ABANDON PLANS FOR A350 IF FURTHER DELAYS
*QATAR AIRWAYS CEO MADE COMMENTS IN INTERVIEW DUBAI

[ Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com ]

I'll update you when they download the AV interview

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:10 pm

Random thoughts here:

" Airbus can't give away a $285 million dollar aircraft.

Like I say, cost, sure. Maybe close to cost on two. But they don't sell aircraft at a loss. "

Airbus has already stated that the first few frames will be at a loss, don't remember the exact number, that principle is out the door. If you can do it for a delayed program who knows what else you will do it for???

" It's semantics..I disagree (as stated per my example)......"

A380F's get converted to pax variants, did not seem to spark this type of debate, why is that, because of the customer?

Just trying to understand guys, nothing more. There have been so many threads about the A380 that it's hard keeping up with the logic flow.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 25):
A380F's get converted to pax variants

ILFC's A380s were firm orders, converted to A380 passenger aircraft. No NEW (increase of) orders here. Options that are being converted to orders are NEW orders, no matter how you look at it.

For those in doubt, answer the question I asked earlier on...

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
how many orders are there at the moment for the A380? Is it 149, 166 or around 230.

Still not sure about it?

How about looking at a pressrelease of Boeing, announcing FR excercising options for the 737.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3/060929a_nr.html

Boeing, Ryanair Agree to Order for 32 Additional 737-800s

The order involves exercising options included in a previous purchase contract.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Or Spicejet.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3/060814d_nr.html

The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] and New Delhi-based SpiceJet today announced that the airline converted its 10 options into an order
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):

I'm reminded of Wimpy in the "Popeye" cartoons - "I will gladly consider buying your product on Tuesday for some extra cash today". Silly

 rotfl 

Quoting Par13del (Reply 25):

Just trying to understand guys, nothing more. There have been so many threads about the A380 that it's hard keeping up with the logic flow.

There is nothing logical..so you need not worry about it.... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
NYC777
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
"Qatar Airways already has an agreement with Airbus on receiving compensation for the A350s for which it placed orders of 60 aircraft. But tinkering with the original design has led to delays. Al Baker has on many occasions said he is not worried about the status of the A350 as clauses on compensation are in place."

How can ask for compensation on the A350 when he didn't even sign a firm contract? The guy has balls butI hope for Airbus' sake they tell him where he can go.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
I'll have some more details shortly but these headlines are typical Al Baker talk

*QATAR AIRWAYS MAY TURN TO BOEING IF FURTHER DELAYS IN A350
*QATAR AIRWAYS MAY ABANDON PLANS FOR A350 IF FURTHER DELAYS
*QATAR AIRWAYS CEO MADE COMMENTS IN INTERVIEW DUBAI

I wonder if he's still got someone kicking his ass for letting go of the 787 slots he held?

Quoting Manni (Reply 26):
ILFC's A380s were firm orders, converted to A380 passenger aircraft. No NEW (increase of) orders here. Options that are being converted to orders are NEW orders, no matter how you look at it.

True, it will be counted as 2 more orders on their books. These are options that are converted to firm orders so in essence a neworder. They just won't have any more options (unless they negotiate for more) after converting these two.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:56 am

1 for 2, 2 for 1, at cost, or close to it, you have to feel bad for Airbus. But then again, IMO, they are not the ones really absorbing the costs.  bigmouth 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
briguy1974
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:47 am

RE: QR Demands A380 Comp. It Then Will Order 2 More

Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:18 am

Airbus has already made its bed... You can not only compensate your large order makers for an aircraft. It is more important for Airbus to compensate QR to keep the A350 order more than to keep the A380 profitable on two extra frames...
Including all the compensation I still can not make the math work with Airbus making a profit on the A380. It seems they are already riding a fine line without any new large orders. (that are not at discounted prices for compensation purposes).

Who is online