NYCA330
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Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:35 pm

I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I assume a local fishing enthusiast was involved in naming these. So... when were these named, and who got to name them? This question doesn't only apply to JAX, i notice a lot of local flavor for other airports as well. This question can extend to a lot of other waypoints as well, since they often seem to come in themes... I see that in Japan there are CELLO and VIOLA. Anyone?
 
cxb744
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:43 pm

Some intersections are named after landmarks they are near. Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
777fan
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:12 pm

I've often wondered the same. Here at HNL, we feature the "MAGGI 3" arrival although I doubt there are many locals here with that name. The letter "G" isn't even in the Hawaiian alphabet!

Another notable intersection is "BEARS" which sits just off the lakeshore near Soldier Field in Chicago.

777fan
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LTU932
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:17 pm

There's TIO (Coco VOR), TOMAS, MONTE, LIO (Limón VOR, actually Lio is an Ice Tea brand in Costa Rica), TIGRE, RAMON, ATENAS, PARAI (short for Paraiso, a town in Cartago province) here in Costa Rica as waypoint names. Some of the departures are even named RAMON departure, ATENAS departure, even CACAO departure. My favourite however is PESTO waypoint on the UB767 airway. Just hearing the name of it makes me hungry for some pasta with pesto (a basil paste for use on breads and pasta dishes). Big grin

I also want to know who names those waypoints.
 
graphic
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:27 pm

There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.
Demand Media fails at life
 
charlipr
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting Graphic (Reply 4):
There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.



Acutally, the one you are talking about is the Portsmouth, NH (KPSM) RNAV (GPS) RWY 16 approach.
 
3201
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Graphic (Reply 4):
There's one arrival in a florida airport where you come over ITAWT ITAWA PUDDY TTATT, if you go missed then the holding point is IDEED.

That's Portsmouth, NH, not in Florida.

Sometimes points or procedures or other airspace features are named after people working in the industry who help develop them, e.g. this one.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
UA772IAD
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:35 pm

MCI has some good ones:

SPICY, BARBQ, and RIBBS

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/00780I1RC3.PDF
 
KELPkid
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:41 pm

They used to be human-named, yes...like TRAIL and BLAZR (both fixes for the ILS RWY 10L approach at PDX-BLAZR is the final aproach fix).

I've heard that they are now computer-named, however after looking at the RNAV RWY 10 approach at 5T6 (Santa Teresa, NM): http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0612/09068R10.PDF , I can tell you this (about the fix names): WAREG is named for the War Eagles Air Museum, located on the field. SAZAR is named for Susie Azar, the former mayor of El Paso, TX, who kept her plane at Santa Teresa, and was a flight instructor there  Smile SUSIQ is named for Suzy-Q, a famous P-51D Mustang, at one time owned by the late John Macguire, who started the War Eagles Air Museum with his private warbirds collection (I believe Suzy-Q was lost in an accident at Reno in the late 1970's). Sounds like too much of a coincidence for the fixes to be computer named to me  Wink The approach at 5T6 was certified late last year.
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Mir
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
Another notable intersection is "BEARS" which sits just off the lakeshore near Soldier Field in Chicago.

KUBBS is around there as well.

The MSP area is filled with local references:
WOLVS, TWOLF (references to the Timberwolves basketball team)
TWINZ, KBREW, HRBEK (references to the Twins baseball team, and two ex-players)
WILDD (reference to the Wild hockey team)
SKETR (no shortage of mosquitoes in Minnesota)
OLLEE (as in the Ole and Lena joke, aka "stupid upper midwesterner joke")

-Mir
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bond007
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:51 pm

Well, the key is that is has to be pronounceable. Almost every major airport in the US has fixes that have some relevance to the area:

"b. Names assigned for waypoints, intersections, Air Traffic Control (ATC) coordination, and Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) fixes not co-located with a navigational aid shall consist of a single five-letter pronounceable name. These five letters shall serve as the name, identifier, and computer code.
c. Regional/service area office requests for specific five-letter names for radio fixes and waypoints should be avoided, but may be granted by Aeronautical Information Management if feasible.
d. Five-letter names that are assigned by National Flight Procedures Office and major commands will be coordinated with the associated ARTCC to preclude similar sounding fix names.
e. Aeronautical Information Management shall not duplicate any radio fix, waypoint, marker beacons or compass locators names.
f. A fix or waypoint name change is required if the fix/waypoint is moved 5 NM or more unless operational requirements dictate otherwise"


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
3201
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting NYCA330 (Thread starter):
I was just looking at STAR procedures for KJAX (don't ask me why. okay- flightsim), and i noticed that among the fixes for the POGIE1 arrival were "SHINR" and "BASSS", which are both fish that can be caught in northeast florida (along with pogie, of course). I

And here I thought Shiner and Bass were beers...
7 hours aint long-haul
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:30 pm

All centers have a list that is "reserved" for their use and the approach control facilities within that center airspace. That list is made up of 5 letter names that have been checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world. When you request a specific spelling for an intersection within NAS that is the run up the flag pole to through Aviations Standards to see if it is "reserved" anyplace or currently in use. If not, have at it.

There are some very very good names for waypoints/intesections, sometimes they fit the local area other times just having fun. Such as SEEYA way out on a long south downwind from the GLAND Arrival to IAH, they wouldn't let ADIOS'! Many many more too.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:20 pm

Waypoints are named according to ICAO Annex 11. Each is a 5 letter name code (5LNC) supposedly unique in this world or amongst the ICAO contracting states. Usually waypoints are named by the individual state's ANSP or the authorities responsible for procedure design.

Waypoints are sometimes named after a local location or feature but not necessarily. Examples are LAMMA in Hong Kong FIR after Lamma Island, SOKOE after the Sokoe Islands, LESTA in London FIR after Leicester, CHELT after Cheltenham.

Air Services Australia allows you to name your waypoints each for a A$100 donation to a charity.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/namegate.asp

These names are then checked against ICARD or their regional ICAO offices for validity and uniqueness. The ICARD facility is maintained by Eurocontrol and supports the ICAO 5LNC allocation. It maintains a database of 5LNCs issued by ICAO and the status of each one (available/taken). Access to ICARD requires membership of OneSky Online, open only to ANSPs and specified aviation related organizations.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/icard/public/standard_page/5lnc.html

Hope this helps.
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mcdu
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:41 pm

DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).

DEN has BAYLR and ZIMMR from the original Colorado Rockies team.

The FAF for RWY22R at ORD is Ridge which is located in the park ridge neighborhood. RWY 14R at ORD has SEXXY as a fix and I have no idea why it is named, but perhaps the guy with the names had a girlfriend in the neighborhood  Wink
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 12):
checked by U.S. and ICAO folks to verify that there is no 2 names spelled exactly the same anywhere in the world.

how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct. The FMS page is labeled Duplicate Waypoints.

CDG had and may still have a VOR and either another VOR or NDB with the same name for years, that was confusing.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
how do you explain then on many int'l trips when loading the flt pln I must choose which ABCDE(waypoint) I want because there may be several with the same name and the dist from last entered point and lat/lon are how you know which is correct.

I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:00 am

To answer the question, they are named by Air Traffic Controllers...at least some of them used to be. Im quite sure by now, they must be computer generated.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
LVTMB
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1):
Out here in SoCal we have GINNA intersection over Gina Lake.

And MAGIC over Magic Mountain ...

MB
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
I can't because that only in the last 4-5 yrs that the NAS has been looking for dups, does that mean it is fool proof, NOT....only what is being strived for....sir!

No need to get testy..... sir! I was only adding to the info re: the post. As a matter of fact I just landed about 2 hrs ago from Europe and found 2 different waypoints/navaids with duplicates. NEW...is Newcastle U.K. which was the one I was wanting as it was 153 nm ahead and another NEW that was 5647 nm away. I created a definded waypoint for the com boundry point for Icelandic ATC using its ID BIRD only to find there were 5 BIRD points around the world. It's not uncommon at all.
 
BigJimFX
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 14):
DFW has NOLAN RYANN XPRES (sorry if the spelling is not accurate my flight bag is at work and my memory is not what it used to be).

Don't forget BPARK over The Ball Park in Arlington, or GVINE over grapevine.
I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
No need to get testy..... sir

Oh that's wrong.....I wasn't getting testy at all, the sir was simply respectful not pissy, sorry you took in wrong, now you can owe me!  Smile

Back to the thread! As we all know things in the FAA change at glacier like speeds so in order to get inline with the concept it may take another decade or longer!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 21):
now you can owe me!

It's a deal!

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 21):
the concept it may take another decade or longer!

Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
MCI has some good ones:

SPICY, BARBQ, and RIBBS

Just to add.. MEM has ELVIS, BLEWS(blues), and HANDY(W.C.Handy father of the blues)
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
It's a deal!

Roger!!!!

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
Considering how many duplicates we see worldwide, I would almost say it may be impossible. I will go so far as to say that on an int'l trip you will see duplicates somewhere on every fight.

Write up irregularity reports if your airline uses them and toss in the "safety" term when your FMC comes up with the lovely inssufficent fuel when you select the wrong dup!  Smile Is that feasable?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
71Zulu
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:01 pm

Some around MSY

ROYUL
POSUM
CREOL
ZYDCO
VOODO
RYTHM

With the RYTHM 3 ARRIVAL being the STAR that most aircraft inbound from the North follow
Clickable links only please!
 
bond007
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 19):
As a matter of fact I just landed about 2 hrs ago from Europe and found 2 different waypoints/navaids with duplicates. NEW...is Newcastle U.K. which was the one I was wanting as it was 153 nm ahead and another NEW that was 5647 nm away. I created a definded waypoint for the com boundry point for Icelandic ATC using its ID BIRD only to find there were 5 BIRD points around the world. It's not uncommon at all.

Right, but I think we're talking about several TYPES of navaid/points here. Waypoints, Intersections, VORs, NDBs, etc.

With 3 character codes, there is absolutely bound to be duplicates, simply due to limit of combinations....to a lesser point 4 character codes.

The initial discussions were about the 5 character fixes in STARS etc., and much of the comments on naming conventions and duplicates was relevant to those types of fixes...i.e. they must be pronounceable etc. The ICAO comments were specific to the 5LNC codes.

Oh, I'm not saying there aren't duplicate 5 character codes, but we're talking 3,4 and 5 chars here now.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
they must be pronounceable

Some are at best a stretch to pronounce for sure.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 23):
Write up irregularity reports if your airline uses them and toss in the "safety" term when your FMC comes up with the lovely inssufficent fuel when you select the wrong dup! Is that feasable?

Not really since the FMS "handles" duplicate waypoints with a designated page. 99.9% of the time the first one is the right one 'cause it's the closest one to the previous waypoint. They get increasingly farther away as you go down the list. The only time you must scrountinize the choice is when two may be co-located with the same name or very close together such as a VOR and an NDB. Then you just check the flightplan to compare freq or lat/lon. If you do make the wrong choice then as you confirm your route on the plan page of the Nav Display you'll see the mistake when the magenta line hangs a 90(or worse yet 180) deg turn and "heads south"!! LOL

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 26):
Some are at best a stretch to pronounce for sure.

That's an understatement! We cross chk the flt pln with what has been loaded in then FMS prior to pushback and rambling thru a looong flight plan as we chk off the points has gotten me tongue tied more than once.
 
bond007
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 27):
rambling thru a looong flight plan as we chk off the points has gotten me tongue tied more than once.

Yes, it always seems to defeat the object of being 'pronounceable', when ATC has to also spell it out phonetically for you, which happens some of the time.

For most of the time though, it is a lot easier to fly 'Direct to CARDS', rather than 'Direct to X-Ray Bravo Yankee Uniform Uniform' for example, if they were just a random sequence of letters/numbers.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:25 am

I know of a controller or more that has had an issue with a pilot and heard them say to go direct....Delta India Charlie Kilo Kilo, I totally lost it when I heard that, things got ugly quick!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
mcdu
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RE: Who Names Fixes/waypoints?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 28):
Yes, it always seems to defeat the object of being 'pronounceable', when ATC has to also spell it out phonetically for you, which happens some of the time.

The phonetic spelling by ATC is often for fixes that might not be on your route and not visible in the FMC or for a fix that may be spelled more than one way. Using the "cards" example it might be spelled "CARDS" or "CARDZ". You will want to make sure you are going to the correct fix because if you type in one when you want the other you could find yourself flying in a direction neither you or the controller had hoped for.

AA at Cali comes to mind. Rozo NB was listed as also coidentified with another fix. When selecting the fix in the FMC it gives the Lat/Long for confirmation. Without the Lat/Long handy you can make a mistake if you select the wrong one and in this case with tragic results. While it was not the cause of the crash it was a contributing factor.