KiwiTEAL
Topic Author
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DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:34 pm

Looking at todays photo line up......... How does an ex-Hawian DC-10-30, become a "M-10F". Am I silly, or should this really read as a DC-10-30F?

Does the conversion to freight, and any other work upgrage it to the M class, or has the photographer just changed the class ?

John
KiwiTEAL
 
scouseflyer
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:38 pm

From what I understand a MD10 is a DC10 with the MD11's glass cockpit.

Someone please correct me if I'm talking nonsense!
 
brendows
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Someone please correct me if I'm talking nonsense!

You're correct Scouseflyer  Smile The Md-10 and the Md-11 has a common type rating, making it much easier for carriers like FX to operate both of them.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:43 pm

So to re-ask KiwiTeal's question that I ducked - can the glass cockpit be retro fitted to a DC10 to make it a MD10?
 
KiwiTEAL
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:46 pm

Ok - so its basically just a cockpit refit - as well as the freight conversion? no re-engining or anything like that?

John
KiwiTEAL
 
airbusA346
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:49 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 2):

It is also upgraded Avonics too.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
EFHK
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:28 pm

Our very own A.net has some info here:  Smile

http://www1.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=279
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
bagpiper
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting KiwiTEAL (Reply 4):
as well as the freight conversion?

I might be wrong, but I don't think it needs to be converted for freight. I doubt any passanger carriers have converted DC's to MD-10's, but I think it is just the cockpit.
 
nosedive
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 7):
I might be wrong, but I don't think it needs to be converted for freight. I doubt any passanger carriers have converted DC's to MD-10's, but I think it is just the cockpit.

IIRC, National was interested in the MD-10 program... before they were bought out by PanAm.

Boeing also did conversions of DC9s to 717s. With only a few supporters, Boeing stopped the program short... or something to that manner  sarcastic 
 
LVTMB
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:22 am

I thought FedEx was the only carrier that went through the MD-10 conversion program. Basically, a DC-10 airframe with MD-11 avionics. The interesting thing is that you only need 2 pilots, as opposed to 3 in the DC-10.

MB
 
bucky707
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 9):
The interesting thing is that you only need 2 pilots, as opposed to 3 in the DC-10.

not interesting at all. Eliminating the flight engineer is the whole point behind the conversion.
 
pelican22
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:43 am

Only DC10-10s, ex AA and UA were converted to MD10s,which entailed conversion to a 2 crew and glass cockpit,no DC10-15s,30s or 40s were converted.
 
PennPal
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:10 am

I thought I had read somewhere that this program had been canceled. FedEx had bought a large amount of planes to be converted, but after 9/11 all aircraft not converted at that time were to be scrapped. However, the picture that KiwiTEAL refers to shows a MD10 modification taking place on July 18th of this year. So.....it the program still on, or is the work being done to this DC10 just taking a very long time to complete???
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting KiwiTEAL (Reply 4):
no re-engining or anything like that?

The only one I ever remember re-engining the DC-10 was JAL. They replaced their P&W JT-9-20s, which is a JT-9-7A, with JT-9-7R4s, which is then designated a JT-9-59A. They had to re-certify the aircraft with that mod. Quite and expensive undertaking. NWA was offered the same deal by P&W, but chose to stick with their -20 and -20J engines. The -20J is a -7J. The engine swap increased the thrust output by some 3,500lb each, and P&W actually had parts for the -59A's.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
nosedive
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting PennPal (Reply 12):
I thought I had read somewhere that this program had been canceled.

Um, probably this unlocked thread?  sarcastic  Gotta love civ av  Silly.

Fed-Ex MD-10 Question
 
connies4ever
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 8):
Boeing also did conversions of DC9s to 717s. With only a few supporters, Boeing stopped the program short... or something to that manner sarcastic

Hsve not heard of that before, but I have read that AC & Finnair looked seriously at a rework of their combined DC9 fleets back in the early 80s.

--glass cockpit
--RR/BMW 715 engines
--zero-timed airframe

that would have yielded essentially a MD95/717-type a/c. Ultimately both opted for the Airbi family, however.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Pelican22 (Reply 11):
no DC10-15s,30s or 40s were converted.

Of the seven DC-10-15, three have already been scrapped, and the four others are stored or impounded like 48258.

FX has converted some of its DC-10-30F to MD-10-30F - N301/302/303/311/312 & 316FE.

Of the 22 DC-10-40 that were delivered to NW, none are going to have a two-man cockpit, as they have all been withdrawn from use, and are in the process of being scrapped, if it hasn't already happened to some. Maybe we'll see MD-10-40F appear if some of the ex. JL aircraft are to be converted.

Cheers.
 
N1120A
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
So to re-ask KiwiTeal's question that I ducked - can the glass cockpit be retro fitted to a DC10 to make it a MD10?

Um, yes.

Quoting KiwiTEAL (Reply 4):
Ok - so its basically just a cockpit refit - as well as the freight conversion? no re-engining or anything like that?

No re-engining. Actually, I read an article several years ago by a pilot who had flown both aircraft saying that the flying characteristics were so significantly different that he didn't see how they could co-type them.

Quoting Pelican22 (Reply 11):
Only DC10-10s, ex AA and UA were converted to MD10s,which entailed conversion to a 2 crew and glass cockpit,no DC10-15s,30s or 40s were converted.

Incorrect. FX has MD10-30s in their fleet and is likely converting more.

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
Maybe we'll see MD-10-40F appear if some of the ex. JL aircraft are to be converted.

I doubt FX would want to screw around with JT9's
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
I read an article several years ago by a pilot who had flown both aircraft saying that the flying characteristics were so significantly different

That's a true statement...the MD-10 flies like a DC-10 and the MD-11 flies like a ...MD-11.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Incorrect. FX has MD10-30s in their fleet and is likely converting more.

As I also said.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
I doubt FX would want to screw around with JT9's

I didn't meant FX, but there are the four DC-10-40Fs that are flying with SU, plus one with Arrow Cargo. Don't forget that Omega Air is trying to develop an air tanker from the conversion of the ex. JL DC-10-40 that are stored at the moment. So maybe they'll also get the new cockpit. But that is only speculation.

Cheers.
 
dispatcher
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:53 am

FedEx is the ONLY operator of MD10's. FedEx is the ONLY company having DC10's converted to MD10's at this time. The conversion process is still ongoing. The latest MD10 conversion was N367FE, which did it's first revenue flight on Nov 30, 2006. There are currently 7 DC10's in the MD10 conversion process. 30 more DC10's are planned for conversion. Of the 30 planned for conversion, but not currently in the conversion process, 23 of those are currently flying for FedEx, the other 7 are stored. Conversions are scheduled to be complete by 2011. After the program is finished, FedEx will operate 83 MD10's and 0 DC10's.
 
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N328KF
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 20):
FedEx is the ONLY operator of MD10's. FedEx is the ONLY company having DC10's converted to MD10's at this time.

You know who seems like a good candidate for the MD-10 program? The Department of Defense.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
dispatcher
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 21):
You know who seems like a good candidate for the MD-10 program? The Department of Defense

That would be pretty cool, what would they call it, the KD-10? I think (but I'm not sure) the problem with the Air Force KC10's is they are simply wearing out structurally, not necessarily that they want to save money on flight crews. But like I said, I'm not sure.
 
N1120A
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 21):
You know who seems like a good candidate for the MD-10 program? The Department of Defense.

The KC-10 turned out to be one big pile of sh!t for the Air Force and was never really needed. I have a friend who was chief mechanic on a KC-10 crew and she hated that plane. Hopefully, Congress will see straight and just replace the whole tanker fleet with the KC-767
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
I have a friend who was chief mechanic on a KC-10 crew and she hated that plane.

And that makes it a fact? I also know a few guys that fly them and they never said that.
 
474218
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 8):
IIRC, National was interested in the MD-10 program... before they were bought out by PanAm.

I think you should have your memory checked.

o National Airlines was bought by Pan Am in 1980.
o The MD-11 program was launched in 1986, first flew in 1991.
o The MD-10 program was launched in 1997, the MD-10 is based on the MD-11.

Seems remarkable to me that National could see 17 years into the future.
 
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N328KF
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 22):

That would be pretty cool, what would they call it, the KD-10?

I can't see it being referred to by anything other than KC-10B.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
dispatcher
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:32 pm

KC-10B does sound better. Heck, DC-10B sounds better than MD-10. But that would have been a little confusing in day to day operations.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 22):
the problem with the Air Force KC10's is they are simply wearing out structurally

Really? The Air Force fleet is newer than 99% of the DC-10s remaining in service.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
I have a friend who was chief mechanic on a KC-10 crew and she hated that plane.

And that makes it a fact? I also know a few guys that fly them and they never said that.

Exactly, I have heard it was a good aircraft too. You can't take a disgruntled mechanic's opinion too seriously. A lot just want the easiest task, planes need work, its just the way it is. Does that make them crap?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
The MD-11 program was launched in 1986, first flew in 1991.

I believe the first flight was 1/10/90 and the first pax service for Finnair 12/20/90.

Quoting Pelican22 (Reply 11):
Only DC10-10s, ex AA and UA were converted to MD10s,which entailed conversion to a 2 crew and glass cockpit

Are you sure about this? I flew on a UA DC10-10 in the late 90's and I am sure there was a flight engineer on the flight.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
The MD-11 program was launched in 1986, first flew in 1991.

The MD-11 first flew January 10th, 1990, and the first aircraft was delivered to AY December 7th, 1990.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
The MD-10 program was launched in 1997,

FedEx officially commited itself to the MD-10 program in September 1996.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 28):
Are you sure about this? I flew on a UA DC10-10 in the late 90's and I am sure there was a flight engineer on the flight.

What he meant in his answer was that only ex AA & UA DC-10-10 have been converted to MD-10, but as I said in Reply 16, that's not true.


Cheers.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 29):
What he meant in his answer was that only ex AA & UA DC-10-10 have been converted to MD-10, but as I said in Reply 16, that's not true.

You are correct. We have both -10s and -30s modified. The mod was a significant inprovement with the glass and all the "bells and whistles" but many little annoying glitches occur frequently most involving the air sys.
 
nosedive
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
I think you should have your memory checked.

Sucker born every minute  Wink
 
ex52tech
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
MD-10-40F appear if some of the ex. JL aircraft are to be converted.

Well the JL -40s would be a better choice, the JT-9-7R4s they have on them have more power, and there is a more redilly available supply of parts for them.
The NW-40s had the lower auxiliary fuel tanks deactivatedin the 80s, so they would not have the range of the JL-40s. I think most of the NW-40s are beer cans by now, which is a shame, it would have been nice to see one example preserved.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
474218
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 29):
FedEx officially commited itself to the MD-10 program in September 1996.

Boeing web site states 1997?

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 29):
The MD-11 first flew January 10th, 1990, and the first aircraft was delivered to AY December 7th, 1990.

I was off a year.

Both were still way before National was bought out by Pan Am.
 
dispatcher
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 28):
Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 22):
the problem with the Air Force KC10's is they are simply wearing out structurally

Really? The Air Force fleet is newer than 99% of the DC-10s remaining in service.

Please quote accurately before slamming me for something I admitted to not knowing, the begining part of the sentence read:

Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 22):
I think (but I'm not sure)

Admittedly I should have checked it out first and my guess was obviously way off. I stand corrected.
 
Olympus69
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
I have a friend who was chief mechanic on a KC-10 crew and she hated that plane.

And that makes it a fact? I also know a few guys that fly them and they never said that.

Perhaps that's because they don't have to maintain them.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 35):
Perhaps that's because they don't have to maintain them

Most pilots, including myself, don't like to fly planes that break alot.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 32):
I think most of the NW-40s are beer cans by now, which is a shame, it would have been nice to see one example preserved.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Derek Hellmann



You can still try your chance to get one preserved.  Wink I'm just amazed that so many are still around, with "just" one or two bits missing.

Cheers.
 
N1120A
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RE: DC-10 = MD-10?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
And that makes it a fact? I also know a few guys that fly them and they never said that.



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 28):
You can't take a disgruntled mechanic's opinion too seriously.

She wasn't disgruntled at all, she loved her time in the Air Force. She just noted that it was a bear to take care of, particularly after the Barksdale explosion.

In any case, the aircraft has always been too large for its mission, which is the main reason why the KC-135 still rules the skies, and the DC-10's wake profile doesn't help either. The 767 is a much better choice.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss