T773ER
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EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:14 am

Emirates to order 50 mid-size jets
By Ivan Gale, Staff Reporter



Dubai: Emirates has plans to order up to 50 or more mid-size jets to fill a gap in its fleet, a company official confirmed.

Mike Simon, senior vice president of corporate communications for Emirates, said the airline was talking to Airbus about its new A350XWB and to Boeing about its 787 Dreamliner to expand its fleet of planes in the 250- to 350-passenger category.

"It probably would be around 50, or maybe more," Simon said. At around $150 million per plane according to list price, such an order would come out to $7.5 billion.

Emirates already has about 100 planes on order, including 43 of the giant Airbus A380s which are suffering a 22-month delay.

Emirates has given its design preferences to both manufacturers, said Simon, suggesting that the company that Emirates selects for the contract may be the one that changes its planes to fit its needs.

'Nitty-gritty'

"We have talked to Boeing and we are hoping that they will eventually produce a 787 with a longer range and a bit higher [seating] capacity," Simon said. He also said Emirates still needed to get into the "nitty-gritty" and see what the A350 planes could do. "It's still in the very early stages," he said.

On December 1 Airbus announced it would go ahead with the A350XWB, a larger, more powerful version of its A350 with a carry capacity of between 270 to 350 passengers.

The first of the A350WXB planes will be ready in 2012, right at the time Emirates will replace its Airbus A330 aircraft and its older Boeing 777s.

I'd have to put my money on the 787, just because its a better plane than the A350. I think Boeings got the deal sealed if they decide on making the 787-10

[Edited 2006-12-07 02:17:29]
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zvezda
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RE: Will Emirates Order The A350WXB Or 787?

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:18 am

I expect EK will order the B787-10 and eventually pressure Boeing to launch a B787-11.

[Edited 2006-12-07 02:24:15]
 
futurecaptain
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting T773ER (Thread starter):
Emirates has given its design preferences to both manufacturers, said Simon, suggesting that the company that Emirates selects for the contract may be the one that changes its planes to fit its needs.

How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs? Over what, a 50 plane order? Hell, you only have 2 planes to choose from, better take which one is closest to what you want rather than waiting for someone to change a design to fit their specific characteristics.
I could see someone doing it when the planes are flying and have paid back development costs. The 764 is an example. But as of today I doubt anyone is devoting resources developing a plane to fill an order like this.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. Flame away.
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Lumberton
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:35 am

I read PPRUNE occasionally, and one of the recurring themes in the "Mideast" forum is the challenges EK faces recruiting pilots. They can order all the aircraft they want. They still have to have the staff to crew them.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs?

What's the worst A + B could say? No?

EK's not holding a gun to anyone's head to say yes...
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dutchjet
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs

Sorry to break the news to you, but this happens all of the time and launch customers have a lot of imput into the design/performance of a new model airliners. Remember the 777 and the Working Together team?

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
Over what, a 50 plane order?

You bet.....thats over $5 billion...for that kind of money, when EK talks, both Airbus and Boeing will listen. And, neither A or B is going to build a custom airliner for EK, they will simply try to accommodate EK's wishes and come up with a design that will satisfy EK and other customers. The development of the 787-10 has been accelerated to keep EK happy.....they are looking for an airplane thats bigger than the 789 already launched by Boeing.

-----------------

Arent these the same 50 mid-sized jets that EK was to order earlier in the year.....many thought that something would be announced at Farborough but nothing happened. Is EK now ready to make their move?
 
grantcv
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Boeing to launch a B787-11.

There will never be a B787-11. It won't work, the plane will be too long. The B773 is already at the limits - so making a narrower plane have the same capacity will never work.
 
dtw9
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs?

Well they wouldn't be the first airline to do this. I remember an airline requesting a couple of shorthaul jets be built that fit their specific routes, and got a company to go along with it. The airline-SAS. The planes-DC9-20,and DC9-40. Total orders for DC9-20=10. Total for the DC9-40=71. If somebody wants your business bad enough, they'll build it.
 
mptpa
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:05 am

For Boeing it would make sense to make the -10 if 50 frames are involved. For Airbus, they should not as they need the customers in the mainstream requirement to get it, and generate cashflow first. Boeing already has enough frames on firm to pay for the development and then some.....
As someone stated, if they build the -10, they probably can bag the deal....
 
futurecaptain
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
this happens all of the time and launch customers have a lot of imput into the design/performance of a new model airliners

I realize launch customers can have input on design. The 787 is already being assembled, pieces are being delivered next month. Kinda late for the initial 787's to be changed for EK's wishes. And with 400 orders it shouldn't be. Now a stretch ala 787-11 could be what EK wants and could become like the 764, but if they want the plane by 2012 they better hurry up and order.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
And, neither A or B is going to build a custom airliner for EK,

That was the impression I got of what EK wanted done for them from the quote "may be the one that changes its planes to fit its needs." To me that sounds like EK wants a pretty custom job done on either the 787 or A350. I agree with you that A or B will not do that for EK.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 7):
The airline-SAS. The planes-DC9-20,and DC9-40. Total orders for DC9-20=10. Total for the DC9-40=71.

And where is Douglas now? Merged with McD. Merged with Boeing. Thats where customizing a plane for one airline gets you. Alot of money and time invested for a little market share.
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zvezda
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 6):
There will never be a B787-11. It won't work, the plane will be too long. The B773 is already at the limits - so making a narrower plane have the same capacity will never work.

The B787-9 is 20 feet longer than the B787-3/8. The B787-10 is expected to be 20 feet longer than the B787-9. A B787-11 20 feet longer than the B787-10 would still be shorter than the A340-600. If you really think that a B787 the length of the A340-600 wouldn't work, then you'll need to provide evidence and logic supporting that assertion.
 
dtw9
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 8):
And where is Douglas now? Merged with McD. Merged with Boeing. Thats where customizing a plane for one airline gets you. Alot of money and time invested for a little market share.

Then I guess we should include Boeing IE: the 747sp,757-300,737-100, 767-400,747-300
 
zvezda
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
Now a stretch ala 787-11 could be what EK wants and could become like the 764, but if they want the plane by 2012 they better hurry up and order.

There is no way a B787-11 could be ready by 2012. It would require new maingear and engines with about 85K lbs of thrust. I don't think it could be ready before about 2015.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:20 am

I just posted this. wonder who ordered the rest.

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3134385/
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futurecaptain
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 11):
Then I guess we should include Boeing IE: the 747sp,757-300,737-100, 767-400,747-300

AFAIK Boeing usually makes the "custom" planes after the initial models have sold heavily.

747SP - Not really customized. Was designed for its high range.
757-300 - Was late to market, sure it didnt sell as well as planned, but it wasnt built specifically for 1 or 2 airlines either.
747-300 - Not sure why you bring this one up? An updated 747 to replace aging models.

764 - I used that in my above posts. I agree it was custom built for 2 airlines, but only after the 767 had solid sales from earlier models.
Boeing is having no trouble filling production slots for the current models on the table, as is. More major orders are expected which could easily have the 787 sold out through the 2011-2012 time frame. And that is without redesigning a bird for one airline's specs.
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NW727251ADV
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs? Over what, a 50 plane order? Hell, you only have 2 planes to choose from, better take which one is closest to what you want rather than waiting for someone to change a design to fit their specific characteristics.
I could see someone doing it when the planes are flying and have paid back development costs. The 764 is an example. But as of today I doubt anyone is devoting resources developing a plane to fill an order like this.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. Flame away.

I agree with you a 1000% and I thought I was the only one who felt this way. This is exactly what I wrote in another thread about this same topic:

"Emirates is really getting on my nerves with their pompous and pretentious attutude of handling business. They are always trying to pursuade A and B to tailor aircrafts to THEIR specific needs. This isn't the the 60s & 70s when you had manufacturers making aircraft specifically for a certain airline like the DC-10 and L-1011 for United and American or the Trident for British European. And every true aviation enthusiast knows that disaster that became of the Trident as a result of their aircraft being constantly modified to meet the needs of only BEA. Emirates need to take whats offered and if it isn;t good enough then too bad. What do they need all of these planes for outside of entering the aircraft leasing business? They want the 747-8 tailored to suite them; they want the 787-10 tailored to suite them; they want the A350 tailored to suite them; and IIRC they want the A380-900 built to their specifications. EK needs to get down off its high horse."

[Edited 2006-12-07 03:28:22]
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T773ER
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:25 am

The seating capacity of the 787-11 would almost fit in at the low end of Y3. So I don't think we will see a 787-11 anytime soon. Big grin
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zvezda
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting T773ER (Reply 16):
The seating capacity of the 787-11 would almost fit in at the low end of Y3.

The size of Y3 hasn't been determined yet. It's not certain that it will be built at all.
 
dutchjet
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
The 787 is already being assembled, pieces are being delivered next month. Kinda late for the initial 787's to be changed for EK's wishes

EK never was very interested in the 788 or 789, the current models on offer, as they were too small for EK's needs......thus we move along to the 787-10 which is still a paper airplane. If, after reviewing Boeing's proposal on the 787-10, EK were to say we like and will buy it, but its needs to have another 500nm of range and/or we need to put another 27 seats into it, Boeing will have a long hard look. (I am just using Boeing as an example, Airbus would surely do the same). There is a very very good chance that EK will get the airplane that it wants as long as its practical, will not wreck development costs, and will not make the airplane unattractive to other airlines.

LH signed up for the 748I today (yeah!), but LH insisted that Boeing build the higher capacity proposal (with the longer fuselage like the freighter) that adds seats but cuts 500nm of range....LH got its way, but it could cost Boeing some sales down the road. QF was thinking about the 748I for SYD-DFW flights which may now be a problem, it was rumored that EK was studying the 748I but wanted only the lower capacity/longer range proposal, etc. Its give and take between the launch airlines and the manufacturer until a design is finalized. And, with an potential order for 50 airplanes (plus options) on the table, the manufacturer will do what it can to land the order.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):
THat was the impression I got of what EK wanted done for them from the quote "may be the one that changes its planes to fit its needs."

Honestly, I think that you are taking the contents of the article a bit too seriously.....this is PR chat and spin.....EK is using the media to influence A and B.



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 7):
The airline-SAS. The planes-DC9-20,and DC9-40



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 9):

And where is Douglas now? Merged with McD. Merged with Boeing. Thats where customizing a plane for one airline gets you. Alot of money and time invested for a little market share.

Not a very fair comment in my opinion......SAS was a very loyal Douglas customer and Douglas came up with a product for SAS....the special D92s and D94s were mixing and matching some components and the like, they were not designed from scratch for SAS. Customizaton is part of the game, airlines have different needs and one size does not fit all.....and many of the custom design requirements are not big ticket items. Airlines have operational needs that must be satisfied to gain an order.
 
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):

How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs?

EK knows what they want... once upon a time there was a *very* arrogant customer called PanAm who made Boeing redesign not one but two aircraft to meet their demands: 707 and 747.

PanAm was beyound arrogant with the 707. They couldn't get either Boeing or Douglas to produce the plane they really wanted... so they ordered both. But more from Douglas than Boeing. (A la EK and the 777/346) The result? Boeing redesigned the 707 with a wider fusalage to accomodate PanAm. The result was not only passanger comfort but range...

With the 747 PanAm kept insisting on major changes (e.g., the cockpit on top). This stressed the engines beyound their design and complicated the 747 launch. (Recall that engines take a longer design and development time than the airframe.)

By building the plane a very demanding customer insisted on... Boeing went from an also ran to what they are today.

If EK can get a 787-10/11 that better fits its needs... good for them. If it means they're the launch customer for the A350XWB... so be it. If they cannot... ok, they'll order what they can get. But an order for 50 airliners is pretty big; its not that big of a deal to look at EK's request. This is an order for billions of dollars of aircraft, not the purchase of one automobile.

Lightsaber
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dtw9
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 14):
747SP - Not really customized. Was designed for its high range.
757-300 - Was late to market, sure it didnt sell as well as planned, but it wasnt built specifically for 1 or 2 airlines either.
747-300 - Not sure why you bring this one up? An updated 747 to replace aging models.

So what your saying is that any customer that has the record of buying large numbers of airframes should be told to "blow off" and sent to the competition? Whether it be Airbus or Boeing somebody is going to build them the plane they want because they know that once they have them in their fold the chances of them buying other models of their products is greater then if the competition has them in their fold. Douglas built the 9's for SAS because they were a very loyal customer, as were finnair,swissair austrian, etc. If you have a good customer you listen to their wishes and fulfill them,and if that means a 50 plane derivitive order for one airline then so be it. I doubt that a 50 plane order from Emirates for a derivitive would break the 787 bank,and I'm sure that Emirates would remember Boeings and or Airbuses flexibility the next time it came to ordering aircraft
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:19 pm

Ilyushin

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
once upon a time there was a *very* arrogant customer called PanAm who made Boeing redesign not one but two aircraft to meet their demands: 707 and 747

Those were very different times. It was not 2006 40 years ago. That was an age in which there were SEVERAL aircraft manufacturers all vying for whatever business they could get. Once apon a time there was Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, De Havilland/Hawker-Siddeley, BAC, Vickers, Iluyshin, Tupolev, and the list goes on. Today the only major players are Airbus and Boeing. Back then companies were more keen to catering to AN airlines specific needs. Enter the DC-10 and L-1011 from an American Airlines requirement for a 250-seat aircraft. The Trident was built specifically for British European Airways and turned out to be disasterous for the Trident program. PANAM pretty much launched the 747 program on its own requirements and there really wasn't any other airlines expressing interest in such an aircraft. The major reason why other airlines jumped on the 747 bandwagon was for image/prestige. They couldn't allow PANAM to be flying around 25 technologically advanced jumbos while the other airlines were flying around BAC 1-11s and Caravelles and DC-6s. Today, aircraft manufacturers are no longer in the business of making a plane for just one airline. When the 777 was designed, Boeing instituted the "Working Together" program and they got INPUT from several airlines on what they wanted in a large jet. They didn't just leave all the designing to United Airlines. EK is very pompous and arrogant and I don't understand why they feel the have the right to have these companies make aircraft specifically for them.
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futurecaptain
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Customizaton is part of the game, airlines have different needs and one size does not fit all

Perhaps this is one reason we have 2 major manufactuers today. Douglas, Lockheed, BAC, ect all building aircraft to satisfy 1 or 2 customers. IMO Boeing lets the market as a whole design the planes ala 777, not just a handful of airlines. Boeing/Airbus will then build a plane that while it may not satisfy the exact needs of every customer, will cover the market overall and probably satisfy a majority of the market. There will always be a customer thta wants more seats, wants more range, wants different engines, ect, ect, ect. You have to make a compromise somewhere so instead of selling a certain amount of a/c to a handful of airlines you end up selling more a/c spread out over the entire market.
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UAEflyer
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:43 pm

First of all, this issue is still not mature enough, which means Emirates didn't decide yet what to take. They submit their proposals to both factories in Toulouse and Washington with a certain modifications. The decision will be finalized on March and the order will take place in Paris Airshow.

So let us wait and see
 
hamad
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 2):
How arrogant of them. Now EK is telling Boeing and Airbus exactly what to build and expect them to consider changing their designs to fit one airline's needs? Over what, a 50 plane order? Hell, you only have 2 planes to choose from, better take which one is closest to what you want rather than waiting for someone to change a design to fit their specific characteristics.
I could see someone doing it when the planes are flying and have paid back development costs. The 764 is an example. But as of today I doubt anyone is devoting resources developing a plane to fill an order like this.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. Flame away.

not trying to flame you away, but i will use a concept a professor told us in my Airline management strategies class. Boeing & Airbus are two companies trying to do business. the airlines are clients who are willing to purchase what works for them. it would make more sense if the two manufacturers listened to the airlines' needs and considered them in their design and production of the new planes, after all the airlines are the ones who will purchase and use. and this is how exactly the 777 was introduced the way it is today
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 21):
EK is very pompous and arrogant and I don't understand why they feel the have the right to have these companies make aircraft specifically for them.

Why is Emirates being "pompous and arrogant" by telling the manufacturers what they want?

(i) The manufacturers can tell them to pound sand. Or:

(ii) They can build to the required specifics if the order is (they think) worth it.

Or (most likely):

(iii) Both sides will come to a compromise that suits both.

If you don't ask, you don't get. They are spending many billions of dollars, I think they have an absolute right to state their ideal requirements.

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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 24):
not trying to flame you away, but i will use a concept a professor told us in my Airline management strategies class. Boeing & Airbus are two companies trying to do business. the airlines are clients who are willing to purchase what works for them. it would make more sense if the two manufacturers listened to the airlines' needs and considered them in their design and production of the new planes, after all the airlines are the ones who will purchase and use. and this is how exactly the 777 was introduced the way it is today

Sh7alik ya 7amad

I do agree to certain extend with you, but there are few aircrafts that applied this method that you stated but didn't work, take the Concorde as an example, the 747SP, MD-11, 777LR and many more.
 
kaitak744
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
The B787-9 is 20 feet longer than the B787-3/8. The B787-10 is expected to be 20 feet longer than the B787-9. A B787-11 20 feet longer than the B787-10 would still be shorter than the A340-600. If you really think that a B787 the length of the A340-600 wouldn't work, then you'll need to provide evidence and logic supporting that assertion.

The 787-11 will never work. It is technically impossible to built such an aircraft with out creating a new undercarriage (for bigger, longer landing gear), new wings, and GE90-115b style engines. When you do all those things, you basically end up with a new aircraft.

Boeing will likely replace 777-300ER and 747-8 with a single model between 360-450 seats. And that will not likely happen for another 10-15 years.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:57 pm

Well I deeply respect the posters above, and the realities of the Pan Am influences on Boeing, I am also reminded of that other demanding customer, Howard Hughes of TWA, and Convair. Bowing to Hughes' demands for a narrow fuselage pretty much ended Convair's airliner business.

That said, I don't expect EK to get it's way in the time frame that it's talking about, if at all. Trying to service to EK's stated range/payload needs is a non-trivial task. then again, Christmas is coming, and Clark obviously has his wish list.  Wink
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zvezda
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 27):
The 787-11 will never work. It is technically impossible to built such an aircraft with out creating a new undercarriage (for bigger, longer landing gear), new wings, and GE90-115b style engines. When you do all those things, you basically end up with a new aircraft.

Yes, the undercarriage and landing gear would need to be upgraded, but that work would have to be done anyway for any one of a B787-9ER, B787-10ER, or B787F. It's no more impossible than what Airbus had to do going from the A340-300 to the A340-600. The existing wing is fine for up to 640,000 lbs MTOW, which would be ample for a B787-11. 85K lbs of thrust per engine would suffice, so GE90-115B size engines would not be required.
 
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 14):
AFAIK Boeing usually makes the "custom" planes after the initial models have sold heavily.

The following three photos show the extent a manufacture will go to sell airframes. Look at the door configurations on these 767-300's:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kopczak


8 doors

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Graf - VAP


4 doors and 4 over wing exits

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Markman


6 doors and 2 over wing exits
 
kaitak744
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Yes, the undercarriage and landing gear would need to be upgraded, but that work would have to be done anyway for any one of a B787-9ER, B787-10ER, or B787F. It's no more impossible than what Airbus had to do going from the A340-300 to the A340-600. The existing wing is fine for up to 640,000 lbs MTOW, which would be ample for a B787-11. 85K lbs of thrust per engine would suffice, so GE90-115B size engines would not be required.

The 787-11 would end up being another 767-400. It would need a new wing to carry the extra fuel and the extra weight efficiently (you ever wonder why the A340-600 was not much of a success?). Boeing even explicitly stated that is it very impractical and inefficient to cover a seat range such as 200-350 seats with just one aircraft.
 
spkyflyer
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:27 pm

In this day and age commercial reality is that the customer demands customisation in many many goods and services. It is a trend that we can clearly see in the aviation world also. When a v large B777 customer like EK says " oh we would like to buy maybe 50 frames of your 787 and perhaps 30-40 of your 747 - but we require customisation' you can bet your house that Boeing will do everything in their power to make it happen. If the numbers stack up (and dont forget we are talking somewhere between 10 & 20 BILLION dollars) then it will happen, commercial forces win out in the end.
 
osiris30
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Yes, the undercarriage and landing gear would need to be upgraded, but that work would have to be done anyway for any one of a B787-9ER, B787-10ER, or B787F. It's no more impossible than what Airbus had to do going from the A340-300 to the A340-600. The existing wing is fine for up to 640,000 lbs MTOW, which would be ample for a B787-11. 85K lbs of thrust per engine would suffice, so GE90-115B size engines would not be required.

Z: We've had this discussion before, so I'll just re-iterate. While Boeing *could* build a 787-11, I really doubt they will do so. I think the 787-11 is territory that Boeing will just barely cover with the bottom of Y3.

Now, how different from the 787 Y3 ends up being is another matter all together. I expect a lot of engineering to be re-used with the addition of a mostly composite wing, slightly improved (again) engines, and an even higher % (when all is said and done) of CFRP elsewhere.

I also expect it to be a bit wider (probably optimally 10x). An optimized 777 style landing gear package would probably get 'borrowed'. Sizing to start around your hypothetical 787-11 and upto about 150 seats over that (maybe 100, haven't really sat down and worked out the upper end just yet to be honest).

All in all a vastly superior plane to the 777 and a moderately superior plane to the 787. The funny part is, I don't think the engineering load (outside of the wing) would be too horrible on Boeing.

I could also see the CFRP wings making their way back down to the 787 line in the future as a 787-NG.
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justplanes
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I read PPRUNE occasionally, and one of the recurring themes in the "Mideast" forum is the challenges EK faces recruiting pilots. They can order all the aircraft they want. They still have to have the staff to crew them.

I don't think they have a problem recruiting them but they're having a very tough time keeping them considering they don't take care of them...
 
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solnabo
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:19 am

I wish some people inhere stop writing that 767-400 is/was a niche a/c! We all know it did a world tour around 2000 try to pick up orders but failed big time due to the 330.

The only buyers was (and still is) DL & CO.

Micke// Big grin
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AA777223
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 30):
The following three photos show the extent a manufacture will go to sell airframes. Look at the door configurations on these 767-300's:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Mark Kopczak


8 doors

The fat that they slapped RR engines on the 763, is an even better example of this. As we all know, that was a move to bow to BA, disguised as the availability of all manufacturers engines. The RB-211 was stretched in that application.
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting T773ER (Thread starter):
I'd have to put my money on the 787, just because its a better plane than the A350.

 Yeah sure EK says it's a little small no?
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 35):
I wish some people inhere stop writing that 767-400 is/was a niche a/c! We all know it did a world tour around 2000 try to pick up orders but failed big time due to the 330.

R&D cost was low and it didn't take much to make a profit. But even if it was unprofitable, it kept DL and CO in the fold, and that's far more important. That makes it anything but a "failure" in the sense that you are attempting to portray.
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keesje
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:04 am

Boeing will add a third major model to its 787 Dreamliner series if airlines ask for it, Randy Baseler, Vice President of Marketing, said on Thursday.

Boeing has been working tentatively for some months on a possible 787-10 model to add to its hot-selling 787-8 and 787-9 airplanes, which will fly 210-290 people over 8,000 nautical miles. A short-range variant also exists called the 787-3.


http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...OEING-BASELER.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

A third model ? Probably the tension..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting T773ER (Thread starter):
I'd have to put my money on the 787, just because its a better plane than the A350

You don't know that...  Confused
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Thorben
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:58 am

I think the 787 is too far in its development to be changed to EK's needs. A 787-10 might be built, but it will be smaller than the A350-1000. However, I have large doubts about the 787-11. EK still has that A346 issue with Airbus, I think they'll go for the A350.
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N328KF
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 41):
However, I have large doubts about the 787-11. EK still has that A346 issue with Airbus, I think they'll go for the A350.

While I don't believe that a 787-11 would be constructed (a role I believe will be picked up by Y3), a CFRP tube a la a hypothetical 787-11 would not have many of the structural issues that make the A340-600 a chronic underachiever.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Thorben
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
While I don't believe that a 787-11 would be constructed (a role I believe will be picked up by Y3)

I'm still laughing about this Y3. Boeing launches the 747-8, just to replace it soon afterwards?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
cubastar
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 15):
"Emirates is really getting on my nerves with their pompous and pretentious attutude of handling business. They are always trying to pursuade A and B to tailor aircrafts to THEIR specific needs.

Well, NW went to Douglas (yeah, I know.....60's and 70's) and persuaded them to come out with the DC-10-40 so as to accomodate the P&W engines that NW wanted. Not a small feat because of the design of the tail mounted engine with a new shaped duct plus the individual certification of it.

And, Boeing has responded that it MIGHT offer the 748i with the original shorter stretch for Emirates than the longer 5.8m (18.3ft) stretch for Lufthansa.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 15):
DC-10 and L-1011 for United and American

When did UA and AA operate the L10?

I wouldn't call it arrogance. I think that it would not be a prudent business decision for an airline not to disclose it's wants and wishes. Like previously said, all Boeing and Airbus have to say is "NO".
 
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Je

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
I'm still laughing about this Y3. Boeing launches the 747-8, just to replace it soon afterwards?

Nobody said it would be "soon afterwards." It might be 2020 or 2025 for all we know. Consider the term "Y3" a placeholder for a future aircraft in that slot.

[Edited 2006-12-07 20:18:44]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
andessmf
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Boeing redesigned the 707 with a wider fusalage to accomodate PanAm.

And the Pan Am slowly got rid of their DC-8s for more and more 707s.
 
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
The 787-11 would end up being another 767-400. It would need a new wing to carry the extra fuel and the extra weight efficiently (you ever wonder why the A340-600 was not much of a success?).

No, a B787-11 would not need a new wing. The current wing provides enough lift for 640,000 lbs and extra fuel could be carried in belly tanks.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
While Boeing *could* build a 787-11, I really doubt they will do so. I think the 787-11 is territory that Boeing will just barely cover with the bottom of Y3.

That is one plausible possibility.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
I also expect it to be a bit wider (probably optimally 10x).

I expect Y3, if built, to have an interior cabin width about 20 inches greater than that of the B777.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
While I don't believe that a 787-11 would be constructed (a role I believe will be picked up by Y3), a CFRP tube a la a hypothetical 787-11 would not have many of the structural issues that make the A340-600 a chronic underachiever.

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linco22
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:57 am

Hi all,

Please excuse my innocence, but why do EK need 50 or more airframes?

Regards
Colin (civil-av new person...)
 
flydreamliner
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RE: EK Plans To Order Up To 50 Or More Mid-size Jets

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 6):

There will never be a B787-11. It won't work, the plane will be too long. The B773 is already at the limits - so making a narrower plane have the same capacity will never work.

Really? So you mean, like an A340-600, which is narrower than a 787 and longer than a 777-300ER?

773ER could be made longer, by the way.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
The 787-11 would end up being another 767-400. It would need a new wing to carry the extra fuel and the extra weight efficiently (you ever wonder why the A340-600 was not much of a success?). Boeing even explicitly stated that is it very impractical and inefficient to cover a seat range such as 200-350 seats with just one aircraft.

The 767-400 didn't have a new wing, it had bolt-on raked wintip extensions, which is more or less the same thing they did with the 777 wing for 772LR and 773ER. They could do the same again for a 787-11. No new wing needed. It would need stronger landing gear, which is no big issue either. And the A340-600 is not much of a success because it is pressing an older structural design WAY past the limits it was ever intended for, the CFRP barrel technology/design boeing is using on 787 wouldn't have that issue, at least not at a length of say, 225-230ft.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):

While I don't believe that a 787-11 would be constructed (a role I believe will be picked up by Y3), a CFRP tube a la a hypothetical 787-11 would not have many of the structural issues that make the A340-600 a chronic underachiever.

Yep, they pushed an older, less efficient structural design way too far, and ended up having to reinforce and bolster it sufficiently as make A340-600 have a heavier empty weight than 777-300ER, which can seat more pax and carry more cargo. The CFRP barrel design for 787 would not be at the limits of its structural capacity being stretched out another 20ft past 787-10.

Quoting Linco22 (Reply 48):

Please excuse my innocence, but why do EK need 50 or more airframes?

I think everyone is kind of wondering that at this point.
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