atlaaron
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:54 pm

Article here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061206/delta_bankruptcy.html?.v=3

No real surprise here except for perhaps the request to buy 737-700's.
 
AirTranTUS
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:46 pm

I thought they used their 738's a lot. They operate quite a few trans-cons or near-trans-cons and most of the Latin America routes. 38 is more than half of their 71 jet fleet! If they can turn more of a profit with the 73G though, then it would be better. Maybe they would operate some routes with increased frequency with the 73G versus the 738 and they would put winglets on the 73G's and whatever 738's they keep.
I love ASO!
 
jrlander
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:51 pm

The 38 -800's are yet to be delivered. They will keep the 71 they have.
 
tinpusher007
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:33 pm

Im slightly confused (and very tired). But is it that they wish to convert the 38 -800's to -700's. Or sell the 3 -800's and the simply buy -700's instead? And I wonder which routes they have earmarked for the -700's?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
MD88Captain
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:48 pm

They are asking to sell and convert the existing 737-800 orders to both 737-700's and to something else that is unspecified. They are not asking to sell aircraft already on the property.
 
positiverate
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 4):
They are asking to sell and convert the existing 737-800 orders to both 737-700's and to something else that is unspecified. They are not asking to sell aircraft already on the property.

That's a very important point. Thery are not reducing existing capacity.
 
panamair
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:13 pm

There are currently 50 738s still on order; according to the news release, 38 of those 50 will be sold to already-identified buyers. The remaining 12 will presumably be converted to 737-700s and perhaps another type?

Also, from what I can gather, this has already been agreed to between Delta and Boeing and they are now going to the BK judge to ask for approval.
 
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drerx7
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:34 pm

That other type is undoubtedly 787 or more 777s.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
NYC777
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:36 pm

They have also reached an agreement with Boeingto convert all existing 772ER order to the 77L. They will take 2 in 2008 and 3 in 2009.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
bucky707
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
There are currently 50 738s still on order; according to the news release

from what I understand, there are 50 738s on firm order. Options still exist for many, many more, and can be shifted to any of the 73N series.
 
panamair
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:43 pm

Well here's the official news release about the agreement with Boeing:

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/061207/110057.html

Indeed, conversion of the remaining 3 777-200ER firm orders to LRs. And taking 10 737-700s to begin with - all with winglets.
 
RL757PVD
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:53 pm

From the article:
After Rolling
2007 2008 2009 2010 2010 Total Options
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Aircraft on Option

B 767-300/300ER -- 1 2 2 5 10 2

B 767-400ER -- 1 2 2 13 18 --

---------------------------------------------------------------------

it wont line, up but bassicaly its 28 763/764 options... can those 767 options be converted to 787 orders?
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
DeltaGuy
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting ATLAaron (Thread starter):
the request to buy 737-700's

Bout damn time...they've been in the pilot contract for quite some time, they were envisioned as the replacement for the 732 on the DL Express runs. Perhaps Jerry isn't as big a fan of the E170 for mainline anymore. Good to see more LR's on property.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
bucky707
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):
it wont line, up but bassicaly its 28 763/764 options... can those 767 options be converted to 787 orders?

It would be up to Boeing. I doubt Delta will be buying any more 767s, so I would guess that Boeing would have no problem making a deal whereby Delta's 767 options get converted to 787s.
 
panamair
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 12):
Perhaps Jerry isn't as big a fan of the E170 for mainline anymore

Hmmm, Or, maybe, just maybe, because Boeing is the chair of the Unsecured Creditors Committee....just a thought  Wink
 
LawnDart
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 13):
I doubt Delta will be buying any more 767s, so I would guess that Boeing would have no problem making a deal whereby Delta's 767 options get converted to 787s.

DL could negotiate amending the B767-300/300ER/400ER options into orders for the B787 (28 total airframes, 30 if rolling options included) and announce that as they exit CH11. The B777 options/rolling options could be converted into orders as well (as -200LR / -300ER? 24 total). After the order-sale of 737-800s and order of 10 -700s, that leaves...umm...122 B737NG orders and options that could be confirmed upon exit from CH11.

That's assuming DL exits CH11 as a stand-alone corporation. IF USAirways succeeds in their hostile take-over, Boeing, as one of the deciding creditors on the creditors committee, could possibly might maybe lose it all to Airbus.

So, if DL and Boeing have negotiated this order, part of which is publicly announced today, and the rest of which might be announced in a few months, does this indicate that Boeing backs Delta's plan to emerge from CH11 as an independant carrier?
 
B4REAL
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:15 am

This is good news to see aircraft entering the fleet, but this really only means that 10 737-700 and 5 777-200LR will enter the fleet. They still are very short on (narrow body) mainline aircraft from the removal of the 767-200, 737-300, 737-200 in the last two years. The 5x 7772LR will be great for the long-haul operations.
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bucky707
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 16):
but this really only means that 10 737-700 and 5 777-200LR will enter the fleet.

don't forget the 13 757s that are coming starting in July.
 
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N328KF
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):

it wont line, up but bassicaly its 28 763/764 options... can those 767 options be converted to 787 orders?

The contracts (which became gentleman's agreements) with Boeing dictated that the commitments were on a categorical basis, and did not commit them to a particular model. Thus, 737 and 757 commitments would translate to 737RS/Y1, and 767 commitments would translate to the 787.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
freedom747
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:55 am

I had to re-read Delta's News Release that came out this A.M. I got confused about what they're buying/selling....etc. I had to re-read the News Release twice.
TYPE: news.delta.com
 
DAL767400ER
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
There are currently 50 738s still on order; according to the news release, 38 of those 50 will be sold to already-identified buyers. The remaining 12 will presumably be converted to 737-700s and perhaps another type?

Actually, out of the 50 738s DL has on order, only 2 will actually remain on order for Delta, as Delta has already agreed to sell their 10 738s upon delivery in 2007 directly to a lessor whose name I have forgotten. The 73G order is actually a new order. Don't ask me how this will be accounted for or why, but I suspect bureaucratics behind this, well, rather complicated moving-around of plane orders.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 12):
Bout damn time...they've been in the pilot contract for quite some time, they were envisioned as the replacement for the 732 on the DL Express runs.

Indeed. 45 73Gs were to have been ordered for DLX, until 9/11 killed off that order  Sad .

Quoting N328KF (Reply 18):
The contracts (which became gentleman's agreements) with Boeing dictated that the commitments were on a categorical basis, and did not commit them to a particular model. Thus, 737 and 757 commitments would translate to 737RS/Y1, and 767 commitments would translate to the 787.

That's good to hear Big grin .
 
worldtraveler
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:40 am

I believe this also leaves the financial flexibility for a 100 seater (perhaps E190) order. Removing $1.5B worth of firm 737NG orders by immediately selling them means DL should have the financial strength to start ordering 100 seaters. The 700 is good for long, thin routes and where the extra performance is needed but DL gains nothing by putting in 700s on routes that do not need the performance.
 
B4REAL
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 17):
don't forget the 13 757s that are coming starting in July.

That is true, that brings a total of 28 new airframes to the fleet, still short of what has been lost.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
Removing $1.5B worth of firm 737NG orders by immediately selling them means DL should have the financial strength to start ordering 100 seaters.

Yes, I actually like this strategy of DL's. DL had the 738's ordered with their pricing - and small entities can't get that price. So, DL immediately selling them is a slick trick. I wonder if they make any money on this transaction? For example, if the street price of a 737-800 as DL ordered it is 12 million (total WAG), DL got 9.2 million, and small Joe can only get it for 11.2 million - Does DL keep a little of the difference? I would try!
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bucky707
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
I believe this also leaves the financial flexibility for a 100 seater (perhaps E190) order.

with Boeing being the leader of Delta's creditors committee, I doubt Delta would do anything to upset them......like ordering a E-190.
 
Vctony
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:35 am

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but does this necessarily mean that the 38 737-800s will not join the Delta fleet, or will they join the fleet and simply be owned by the leasing companies?
 
DAL767400ER
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 23):
with Boeing being the leader of Delta's creditors committee, I doubt Delta would do anything to upset them......like ordering a E-190.

How would ordering E-190s upset Boeing, considering that in the 100-seat category Boeing only offers the unwanted little sibling of the 737NG family, the 736?
 
panamair
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Vctony (Reply 24):
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but does this necessarily mean that the 38 737-800s will not join the Delta fleet, or will they join the fleet and simply be owned by the leasing companies?

Delta will not be adding the 38 738s to their fleet; it's simply a sale, not a sale-and-leaseback transaction. 38 additional 738s are too much capacity for their domestic/Carribbean/Central America plans
 
bucky707
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
considering that in the 100-seat category Boeing only offers the unwanted little sibling of the 737NG family, the 736?

You don't think it would upset Boeing for Delta to tell them the 736 is an unwanted airplane, and that more 73Gs could not be a viable alternative to a 190 or 195? You may be right, but not only do I think Delta will stick with Boeing for political reasons (for lack of a better term) I think Delta would make a mistake to add another fleet type when the 737-700 has shown itself to be a great all around airplane and would only seat a bit more than a 190 or 195.
 
DAL767400ER
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 27):
You don't think it would upset Boeing for Delta to tell them the 736 is an unwanted airplane, and that more 73Gs could not be a viable alternative to a 190 or 195? You may be right, but not only do I think Delta will stick with Boeing for political reasons (for lack of a better term) I think Delta would make a mistake to add another fleet type when the 737-700 has shown itself to be a great all around airplane and would only seat a bit more than a 190 or 195.

I'd bet most people at Boeing itself think the 736 is an unwanted plane  Wink . As to the 73G and the E90, I see these as very different planes for Delta for different markets. The 73G is a plane that will be launched on longer, thin routes, not just domestic, but probably also internationally, while the E90 is more suited for the types of routes that FL operates the 717 on (which I would have loved to see in DL colors, but that's another story), namely shorter, high-frequency sectors, as an intermediate option between 70-seat CR7s and 142-seat M88s, regardless of how many seats the 73Gs will have (prolly around 120 like the 733s).
 
B4REAL
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Vctony (Reply 24):
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but does this necessarily mean that the 38 737-800s will not join the Delta fleet, or will they join the fleet and simply be owned by the leasing companies?

Like Panamair said, they will not be flying for DL. DL is simply selling the aircraft that they have ordered to two other parties - at a better price than they could get on their own.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
worldtraveler
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 23):
with Boeing being the leader of Delta's creditors committee, I doubt Delta would do anything to upset them......like ordering a E-190.

It doesn't really matter what Boeing thinks because if DL orders any new aircraft, it won't be until after they are out of BK, at which time Boeing has no more influence over their BK. Besides, DL has been ordering CR9s from Bombardier already and the CR9 starts nibbling into 736 territory just like the E-jets.

The E190 is alot more capable and efficient aircraft than the 717 - and a little bit smaller.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/BUY Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
DL has been ordering CR9s from Bombardier already and the CR9 starts nibbling into 736 territory just like the E-jets.

{Checkmark} The CR9 and E70 types are the gap that DL needs, and I can speak for the E70 and say these are a welcome entrance to the DCI brand. The CR9 is still quite new for DL, but is 2-class and that is a big plus.

Now, if we can only get rid of all the CRJ 50 seaters and below....
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 28):
regardless of how many seats the 73Gs will have (prolly around 120 like the 733s).

124.

12F/112Y.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
roseflyer
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 29):
Quoting Vctony (Reply 24):
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but does this necessarily mean that the 38 737-800s will not join the Delta fleet, or will they join the fleet and simply be owned by the leasing companies?

Like Panamair said, they will not be flying for DL. DL is simply selling the aircraft that they have ordered to two other parties - at a better price than they could get on their own.

The interesting thing is that Delta will probably earn money by doing this. Those 738s had prices negotiated as part of a huge order and probably had some pretty massive discounts. DL will have the planes built, but never painted in the DL livery as they will go straight to the leasing companies which will lease them to other airlines. The leasing company benefits from getting production slots earlier and probably can negotiate a better price buying them off of Delta than by just ordering 38 new 737s right now. It's crazy how it works and it is crazier that two middlemen will go through in getting these planes between Boeing and the final operating carrier, but that is how economics works with everyone taking a bit of profit.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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N328KF
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
It doesn't really matter what Boeing thinks because if DL orders any new aircraft, it won't be until after they are out of BK, at which time Boeing has no more influence over their BK.

You are wrong here on two counts:
  • The 737-700 order is a new order.
  • After DL exits Chapter 11, Boeing would likely become DL's largest stockholder (a situation they faced with AQ.)
On a tangent — I didn't realize that Bethune was the Chairman at AQ.

[Edited 2006-12-07 20:09:11]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
bucky707
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
It doesn't really matter what Boeing thinks because if DL orders any new aircraft, it won't be until after they are out of BK, at which time Boeing has no more influence over their BK. Besides, DL has been ordering CR9s from Bombardier already and the CR9 starts nibbling into 736 territory just like the E-jets.

you could be right. E-190/737.......either way, as long as the Delta pilots fly it, I'll be happy.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/BUY Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 28):
how many seats the 73Gs will have (prolly around 120 like the 733s).



Quoting Panamair (Reply 10):
http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/061207/11005....html

From above-link:

The 737-700 will operate with a common cockpit type to the 71 737-800s in Delta's fleet, but will be configured with 124 seats vs. the 150-seat 737-800s to serve smaller and developing markets. The 737-700 also will be delivered to Delta with winglets to deliver additional fuel savings and efficiencies.

Hopefully the winglets will have widgets on them. cool 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
I believe this also leaves the financial flexibility for a 100 seater



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
How would ordering E-190s upset Boeing, considering that in the 100-seat category Boeing only offers the unwanted little sibling of the 737NG family, the 736?

If WorldTraveler's assessment of DL pondering a 100-seater down the road is indeed true. It's too bad that this possibility didn't become reality say a year or two ago while the 717 was still in production.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 28):
717 on (which I would have loved to see in DL colors, but that's another story)

 checkmark Same here.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 28):
I'd bet most people at Boeing itself think the 736 is an unwanted plane


That's probably true, but as I've stated before in a prior thread some time back; as long as 737NG production continues, the slow-selling 736 could be discontinued for a while and then restarted again should an airline (WestJet as an example) request an order.

IMHO, the only Boeing-built 100-seater that may attract airlines more than the 736 could very well come from the planned succesor of the 737NG family (797 ?).

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 28):
The 73G is a plane that will be launched on longer, thin routes

Actually, WN uses their 73Gs throughout their route system, regardless of distance. More recently, I've seen many FL routes that their 717s can easily handle upgraded to the larger 73Gs either due to either adding capacity without changing frequency or equipment positioning for a subsequent longer route. That being said, DL could easily use 73Gs on their former 732 routes; a plane that Boeing had hoped its adopted-717 line would replace.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
rwsea
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:36 am

The 73G will be a great addition to DL's Latin American network. Many of the new destinations added in the past couple of years don't quite warrant a plane as large as the 738, but still need mainline service (due to range and cargo reasons). The 73G is also a great plane for opening up thinner routes from JFK to the West Coast (for instance, PDX, SMF, SNA, PHX, DEN, SAN, etc.), and also additional frequencies.

These planes can also add some domestic capacity because they can serve as feeders for service to Latin America. For example, a plane could be routed DCA-ATL-BZE-ATL-DCA, or PDX-JFK-SXM-JFK-PDX in a single daily rotation.

Overall, DL needs to add more mainline jets domestically in order to reduce their over-reliance on RJ's. This doesn't go all the way, but will help.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 36):
Actually, WN uses their 73Gs throughout their route system, regardless of distance.

That's WN's choice. For Delta the thinking is, if they buy a plane that has transcon range, they will damn well use it for transcons, or international flights that are in the same range.
 
roseflyer
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 38):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 36):
Actually, WN uses their 73Gs throughout their route system, regardless of distance.

That's WN's choice. For Delta the thinking is, if they buy a plane that has transcon range, they will damn well use it for transcons, or international flights that are in the same range.

While you will probably see 73Gs operated on a variety of routes, the MD88 is better suited for shorter routes. The MD88 has a slightly higher capacity, but is about 5,000lbs lighter, which is good for short routes. The 73G beats the MD88 on longer flights with its improved efficiency and range. DL has a plane as good as the 73G for short hops. Range is the reason for the 73G.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 33):
The interesting thing is that Delta will probably earn money by doing this. Those 738s had prices negotiated as part of a huge order and probably had some pretty massive discounts. DL will have the planes built, but never painted in the DL livery as they will go straight to the leasing companies which will lease them to other airlines. The leasing company benefits from getting production slots earlier and probably can negotiate a better price buying them off of Delta than by just ordering 38 new 737s right now. It's crazy how it works and it is crazier that two middlemen will go through in getting these planes between Boeing and the final operating carrier, but that is how economics works with everyone taking a bit of profit.

Yes, it is very compelling. In fact, I bet Boeing has said something to the effect of "Don't make a habit of this". Because in a way, Boeing and DL are competing to sell 737s!
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
PHLBOS
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 39):
the MD88 is better suited for shorter routes.

Slight tangent question here: how long will DL still fly the MD-88?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
Slight tangent question here: how long will DL still fly the MD-88?

For a very loooong time  Wink . There are no plans to retire the MD-88s, and not to mention that even once DL starts replacing the MD-88s, the large fleet alone means that it would take at least 5 years to replace all of them (at a hypothetical rate of 2/month for 5 years).
 
ebj1248650
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 11):
From the article:
After Rolling
2007 2008 2009 2010 2010 Total Options
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Aircraft on Option

B 767-300/300ER -- 1 2 2 5 10 2

B 767-400ER -- 1 2 2 13 18 --

I didn't realize there were any options from any airline regarding the 767-400.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
roseflyer
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RE: DL Asking Court To Sell/Buy Aircraft

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
Slight tangent question here: how long will DL still fly the MD-88?

Although they are all between 14 and 18 years old, they still are an efficient airplane that should stay in the fleet until the next generation of narrowbodies come out. DL kept the 732s up to 23 years, so it the MD80s have 5-10 years left in them for sure.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!