B773ER
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The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:26 am

I feel that the most profitable rotue for Swiss is ZRH-BOM. The flight is full all year round but still they use the old A330 with the old business class on board. I think the new A340 or the A330 with new biz class and first class should be included on this sector.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:40 am

I don't know which route it is, but I would go ahead and guess that GVA-JFK is up there, it goes out packed in Premium with pretty high yields to boot, though not as lucractive as it was pre-CO81/82.
 
MAH4546
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:10 am

To North America, it is traditionally Geneva-New York City followed, very surprisingly, by Zurich-Miami.
a.
 
LeonB1985
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting B773ER (Reply 2):
which is the largest airline in Asia ?? SQ OR CX OR JL OR KE OR ANA OR TG ??

What does that have to do with LX's most profitable route?
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
elmothehobo
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
To North America, it is traditionally Geneva-New York City followed, very surprisingly, by Zurich-Miami.

Is that what led LH to drop MUC-MIA in favor of keeping MIA-ZRH?

In the pre-CO81/82 days SR must have been making one big profit off of GVA-JFK. Has LX doubling its JFK-ZRH service affected yields on the JFK-GVA flight?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:35 am

LAX-ZRH has to be up there. I have flown the route serveral times, and it is almost always full.
It is what it is...
 
USADreamliner
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:41 am

I thought routes out of GVA were unprofitable, at least for SR.
 
LAXintl
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
LAX-ZRH has to be up there. I have flown the route serveral times, and it is almost always full

Yes the LAX route does have on of the highest load factors on its N America network, however being one of the most profitable it is not.

LA has been touch and go a few times nearly seeing service dropped completely on at least two occasions -- once after SR ended its DL alliance and 2nd time after the failure of SR and reincarnation as LX.
In recent years the station has not even consistently received daily service which would further show its not as much of a gold mine as loads might indicate.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 5):
Is that what led LH to drop MUC-MIA in favor of keeping MIA-ZRH?

Yes, it is. It is also why LX/LH re-enforced MIA-ZRH again with a daily, year-round service, which Swiss' limited long-haul fleet was not allowing pre-LH.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
LAX-ZRH has to be up there. I have flown the route serveral times, and it is almost always full.

LAX-ZRH is actually one of the biggest money losers in the entire Swiss network. I still don't understand while Swiss still flies there. The route loses over one million dollars a year.
a.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:14 pm

1/ ZRH-BOM
2/ GVA-JFK
3/ ZRH-SSG.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
LAX-ZRH has to be up there. I have flown the route serveral times, and it is almost always full.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
LAX-ZRH is actually one of the biggest money losers in the entire Swiss network. I still don't understand while Swiss still flies there. The route loses over one million dollars a year.

MAH4546 is right, ZRH LAX has always be a miserable performer, despite consistently high yields. ZRH SFO, during the days it was operated by Swissair, was an even worse performer, and was, at some point in time, the worst performing Swissair longhaul route.
 
Nimish
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:00 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
LAX-ZRH is actually one of the biggest money losers in the entire Swiss network. I still don't understand while Swiss still flies there. The route loses over one million dollars a year.

Wow, high loads but very low yields! So is there any information on whether the BOM route is actually doing well, and if not which is the LX route that's doing the best?

FYI: the ZRH-BOM route has got a boost recently due to the scissors hub that AC/LX run on the India-ZRH-Canada route, with AC operating a YYZ-ZRH-DEL route, and LX operating a YUL-ZRH-BOM route, with both routes intersecting at ZRH and giving pax an option of YUL/YYZ to BOM/DEL.
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bjornstrom
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:59 pm

Its pretty interesting that perfectly full flights does not mean a profitable route. SK CPH-BKK route is always booked solid in J and almost full in Y - still its not earning money due to low ticket prices and high costs. I suppose that LX ZRH-LAX has the same problem.
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lsgg
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 7):
I thought routes out of GVA were unprofitable, at least for SR.

Not all at all !
European-GVA routes were for Swissair/Crossair and is for Swiss International quite profitable (LTN is a good example). Also the daily GVA-JFK is excellent in term of profitability (CO is even flying daily Newark-GVA).
Swissair forever !
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:04 pm

I think you will probably find that LX's most profitable route in terms of year round traffic with load factors rarely dipping below 75% ever, excellent yields, and very good cargo loads as well - Tel Aviv.

I would stake a decent sum of money on it being TLV.  Wink
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
ZRHnerd
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 15):
I would stake a decent sum of money on it being TLV.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Quoting Lsgg (Reply 14):
Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 7):
I thought routes out of GVA were unprofitable, at least for SR.

Not all at all !

It is true, partly. SR's GVA-JFK has never performed bad, whereas all other SR long haul flights through GVA (eg ZRH-GVA-HKG iirc) have always been a blow and eventually led SR/LX to cancel all via-GVA flights and route GVA passengers through ZRH.
 
LXA340
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:12 pm

As TLV is one of the best performing routes in the LX network will there be a chance that LX will deploy on all it's flights a longhaul aircraft (A330/A340) when they expand their fleet. They used to do so before they reduced their fleet in 2003 and LH flies daily with the 744 and A346 there.

What's with CAI they are even offering First Class on that flight and prices are simmilar than on the TLV flights, this seems also to be one of the more profitable routes or LX I gues?
 
flyingchoirboy
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 14):
I would stake a decent sum of money on it being TLV.

My friend's father is the station manager for LX @ TLV. I could ask him to ask his father what the most profitable route for LX is.

Scott
 
soups
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:23 am

Malabo, Douala and Yaounde comes in mind
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
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legacyins
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
ZRH SFO, during the days it was operated by Swissair, was an even worse performer, and was, at some point in time, the worst performing Swissair longhaul route.

You must have something against SFO. You mention this everytime you post something about SR and SFO. Your synopsis states you were/are employed by Swiss. I worked at SFO during that period and often talked with the station manager. It might not have been an award winning route but it was not loosing masses of money as you may have been eluding.
 
jacobin777
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
LAX-ZRH is actually one of the biggest money losers in the entire Swiss network. I still don't understand while Swiss still flies there. The route loses over one million dollars a year.

How are flights to ORD doing?
"Up the Irons!"
 
swissair4ever
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:10 am

Having worked for Swissair for over 6 years myself in the past, I must agree with HB-IWC's post.

SFO was the worst North American performing route for SR. Though the MD11 F-cl, and C-cl were always full on the ZRH-SFO-ZRH. The route bled money in operating costs to SFO (specifically, terminal costs, flight timings---having been a late afternoon/evening dep from ZRH, and late arrival back into ZRH, and crew operating costs). In fact, I saw some of the operating costs into the SFO international terminal alone, and they were just ridiculously astronomical!!

Within SR it was well-known amongst all that this was true, so it may be that the station manager at SFO (who I knew quite well), was more referring to loads etc.. than overall profitability. Other poor route performers were LAX and ORD. Also, believe it or not, ZRH-MIA for SR always had good loads, but has not been profitable throughout its "life span."

FYI, for SR in North America, for several years the MOST profitable route, believe it or not, was ATL-ZRH-ATL, followed second by BOS-ZRH-BOS. ATL was profitable really from two-to-three months into service when started in 1987. The route always did well in F/C, and ALWAYS enjoyed great cargo loads. Later, the partnership with DL boosted the route (to the extent that the very last SR B747 HB-IGE was operated for an additional 5-6 months prior to retirement and basically shuttled daily between ATL-ZRH-ATL with a config of 18F/66C/312Y !). After the DL codeshare ended, the A332 of SR also did well, but after 9/11 all routes that were even somewhat fluctuating were cut.

Worldwide for SR, ZRH-BOM-ZRH was always one of the most profitable, and many times the most profitable (it still is for LX). Other profitable routes currently for LX are BOS-ZRH, ZRH-SSG, ZRH-TLV, ZRH-HKG, ZRH-DME

Hope this helps. I always get nostalgic when thinking of my dear Swissair.
 
B752OS
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Yes, it is. It is also why LX/LH re-enforced MIA-ZRH again with a daily, year-round service, which Swiss' limited long-haul fleet was not allowing pre-LH.

So does this mean that the market between MIA and Germany is not large enough to sustain daily flights to ZRH and seasonal flights to MUC like BOS or JFK does for example?
 
MAH4546
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 22):

So does this mean that the market between MIA and Germany is not large enough to sustain daily flights to ZRH and seasonal flights to MUC like BOS or JFK does for example?

No, but it does stand to hurt yields because Miami's strong yielding markets to Europe tend to be Southern European markets, the complete oppisite of what most markets are. Wheareas Spain, Italy, and France are low-yield markets from many markets such as Boston, they are high-yielding markets from Miami. This is because most Miami-Europe business connections are with those three countries, along with the UK.

Besides, LTU already flies Miami-Munich and Miami-Dusseldorf non-stop, so it is not like MIA is left without non-stop service to other German cities.
a.
 
jacobin777
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting Swissair4ever (Reply 21):
Other poor route performers were LAX and ORD.

Which is interesting considering LX flies to ORD with an A330....
"Up the Irons!"
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
Which is interesting considering LX flies to ORD with an A330....

They fly to LAX with an A340 as well.
It is what it is...
 
B752OS
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:04 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
No, but it does stand to hurt yields because Miami's strong yielding markets to Europe tend to be Southern European markets, the complete oppisite of what most markets are. Wheareas Spain, Italy, and France are low-yield markets from many markets such as Boston, they are high-yielding markets from Miami. This is because most Miami-Europe business connections are with those three countries, along with the UK.

Interesting. I wonder why AZ continues to offer seasonal daily FCO flights from BOS and AF goes to double daily flights for the Spring and Summer seasons, something that MIA does not have.
 
MAH4546
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 26):
Interesting. I wonder why AZ continues to offer seasonal daily FCO flights from BOS and AF goes to double daily flights for the Spring and Summer seasons, something that MIA does not have.

Because you fail to see the difference between demand and yield. Just because one route is served with better frequency does not mean it is higher yielding. I wonder why MIA gets Alitalia 777s and Boston doesn't. Or why Iberia flies to Miami and not Boston. Do you need to turn everything into some ridiculous Boston vs. Miami thing to make Boston seem superior? They each have their own batch of strong performing routes.

[Edited 2006-12-09 07:15:53]
a.
 
LXA340
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:18 pm

ORD and MIA got downgraded to a 2 Class A330 on all it's flights and BOS on some of it's flights, is this only due to the fact that there are no Aircraft available with F Class or was the demand to low on those flights?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 19):
You must have something against SFO. You mention this everytime you post something about SR and SFO. Your synopsis states you were/are employed by Swiss. I worked at SFO during that period and often talked with the station manager. It might not have been an award winning route but it was not loosing masses of money as you may have been eluding.

Quite obviously, I have nothing against SFO, and I am just stating facts here. If SFO was the worst performing North American destination, and during the winter months even the worst longhaul performer network wide, then that doesn't mean that I have something against your home airport as such. It is/was a fact, and the reason I keep posting it is because it remains a fact. So, stop taking things personal. Here is another former Swissair insider who confirms these facts:

Quoting Swissair4ever (Reply 21):
SFO was the worst North American performing route for SR. Though the MD11 F-cl, and C-cl were always full on the ZRH-SFO-ZRH. The route bled money in operating costs to SFO (specifically, terminal costs, flight timings---having been a late afternoon/evening dep from ZRH, and late arrival back into ZRH, and crew operating costs). In fact, I saw some of the operating costs into the SFO international terminal alone, and they were just ridiculously astronomical!!

The SR108/109 ZRH SFO ZRH route was, obviously, performing better in summer than in winter, but, unlike the SR106/107 ZRH LAX ZRH route, it did not even manage to post a profit during the busy summer months, despite consistently high load factors.

When Swissair stopped flying to Seoul Kimpo and opened a 5 weekly SFO flight (later increased to daily) with the freed up capacity, it was hoped that the route would perform along the lines of the LAX station, i.e. making money in summer, and losing some money during winter, but overall posting a positive balance. This turned out to be wishful thinking, even with regard to the LAX flight, I might add.

One of the problems in setting up the route was the availability of MD11 equipment at ZRH in the morning hours. In order for the flight to fit in ZRH's hub operation, it had to be fit in the 10am hub yet no aircraft was available and Swissair was also concerned about the LAX route if the SFO schedule would be identical. At the same time, the JNB flight had just been moved to the 10am departure hub, taking away yet another MD11 frame.

As such, SFO ended up in the 4pm longhaul departure bank, alongside such longhaul flights to BOS (2nd daily), EWR and JED. The aircraft used for SFO was often the inbound SR107 LAX ZRH equipment, and although SR could have scheduled the SFO flight in the 2pm departure hub, together with NRT, KIX, and PEK-PVG, that would't have made a difference because for reasons of connectivity at ZRH of the return flight, the aircraft would have sat longer at SFO.

The timings were less than interesting with relatively smaller feed available than in the 10am bank, a total lack of longhaul to longhaul connections and a daily problem of plenty of missed connections - remember that these were the times that Swissair was facing severe problems in preserving the on time performance of its ZRH hub because of persisting ATC troubles. To make things worse, the late arrival of the return flight (5.25pm) restricted valuable connections.

Apart from that, operating costs were higher than normal, because of extra crew costs (because of some stipulations in their contract, crews laid over longer at SFO as a result of the specific timings of the flight) and the relative higher operating costs into SFO, and all of these weighed negatively on the financial performance of the SFO route.

As an interesting side note, it is also worth mentioning that the ZRH SFO route was by far the worst longhaul performer in on time performance as well. This had nothing to do with SFO and everything with Swissair's hub structure at ZRH. At the time SR108 was scheduled, there was no MD11 spare available at ZRH, so, in case of any late inbound or technical problem with one of the MD11s, the SFO flight would always be sacrificed and Swissair would wait for the arrival of one of the MD11s from destinations such as SFO, NRT, KIX, PVG-PEK or DAR-NBO and only send the SFO off around 7pm. On average, I'd say this happened about once to twice a week, making the SFO on time performance less than ideal.

All in all, the ZRH SFO flight was by far not the best episode in Swissair's history, and although there were plans to give the flight a new lease on life with a new schedule which called for a 9.45am departure from ZRH, the flight was the first one to be cut when Swissair ended up in the troubles we are all familiar with. I think the current LX management will think twice before ever considering a similar route.
 
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legacyins
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RE: The Most Profitable Route Of Swiss(LX)

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 29):
Quite obviously, I have nothing against SFO, and I am just stating facts here. If SFO was the worst performing North American destination, and during the winter months even the worst longhaul performer network wide, then that doesn't mean that I have something against your home airport as such. It is/was a fact, and the reason I keep posting it is because it remains a fact. So, stop taking things personal. Here is another former Swissair insider who confirms these facts:

Point taken. European routes, in general, are difficult sometimes to the West Coast. Possibly, over time, they may have made adjustments to develop this route. Time and other World developments were not on their side and it understandable why they discontinued the route.