DYK
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KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:23 pm

Wondering if any KLM A.netters have heard some recent talk about KLM potentially starting flights into YYC and PDX in 2008?. KLm is looking at YYC with 747-combi 4 / wk starting sometime 2008?
Is this true??
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Vio
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:25 pm

If that was true, it would be amazing... but a 747 YYC to AMS? ... Is there enough demand for that ? ??
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thepilot
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:28 pm

I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.

My two cents.
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LTU932
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Vio (Reply 1):
If that was true, it would be amazing... but a 747 YYC to AMS? ... Is there enough demand for that ? ??

As he mentioned, it would be a 747 Combi flying the route, which would be more suited for routes with high cargo capacity and reduced passenger demand. If you look at KL's fleet, the bulk of their 747s are Combis, so such routes would be dependent on cargo demand in order for them to stay 74Ms.
 
mel
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:29 pm

I'm pretty sure KLM used to run 743s into Calgary in the 1980s, but still, I doubt they would be back with a 74E. I could see a 763 or 332 4x weekly service, however.
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jimyvr
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:31 pm

PDX may be a possibility since KLM has extensive cooperation with Alaska and Horizon.
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BlatantEcho
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:35 pm

that would be SWEEET!
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DYK
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
As he mentioned, it would be a 747 Combi flying the route, which would be more suited for routes with high cargo capacity and reduced passenger demand. If you look at KL's fleet, the bulk of their 747s are Combis, so such routes would be dependent on cargo demand in order for them to stay 74Ms.

There is a lot of oil field equipment out of YYC and at the moment Cargolux has an almost monopoly on maindeck cargo. I think this is what KLM would be targeting.
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LTU932
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting DYK (Reply 7):
There is a lot of oil field equipment out of YYC and at the moment Cargolux has an almost monopoly on maindeck cargo. I think this is what KLM would be targeting.

Good point. Perhaps there may also be a chance that KLM Cargo could start service as well, given the cargo that needs to be hauled.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting MEL (Reply 4):
I could see a 763 or 332 4x weekly service, however.

But given that the B763ER is about to be withdrawn from the KLM fleet - last flight in the beginning of March - that is unlikely to happen, although the A332 would be a possibility, as would the MD11, for that matter.
 
sllevin
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:26 pm

KL to PDX would actually create an interesting piece of trivia that then every city NW serves NRT would also have service to AMS.

Okay, HNL would be the exception, but :P

Steve
 
Jayce
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:40 pm

I remember when KL used to fly AMS-YYC-YVR as well as AMS-YVR and AMS-YYC, I believe that ended sometime in the early to mid 90's. Given Calgary's strong economy, I could see KL returning, though my guess would be with the A330.

As for PDX, it was mentioned that NW has strong ties with AS and QX so that would make sense. Though there aren't too many destinations that QX or AS serve from PDX that they don't serve from SEA or SFO.
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DYK
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.

It may be possible KLM will operate AMS-YYC-PDX vv. Both cities would be considered good cargo destinations and between the two I am sure they could fill a 74E with passengers?
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BO__einG
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:43 pm

The last KLM flight was something like October 20th 1996 when they brought in their 744 Combis.
It has been 10 years now, Get that flying dutchman flying back into Cowtown!
Heck they are still flying around one of their Jumbos (BFC) which has Calgary's name on it.

My prediction is also the Combi, 200 something pax plus some nice cargo like flowers and meat, there are good potential there.
But anytime soon, Martinair is doing well with its seasonal frequencies.
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N174UA
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
I am skeptical. I don't see the demand between PDX and AMS. YYC maybe, it is more likely than PDX. With SFO and YVR so close, it seems unlikely. Plus, SEA already has service to AMS with NW.



Quoting DYK (Reply 12):
It may be possible KLM will operate AMS-YYC-PDX vv. Both cities would be considered good cargo destinations and between the two I am sure they could fill a 74E with passengers?

I'm also skeptical about KLM and PDX, albeit for different reasons. LH has served FRA-PDX for the last 4 years (well, 4 years in March '07) and with cargo alone, the route is profitable. That in itself (profits) signals to competitors that PDX-Europe can be profitable. But for two carriers? That's where my skepticism comes into play. KLM/NW is looking to expand its presence in PDX, and by offering a rival flight to Europe, even with a 763/777 or an A330 (NW metal), could give LH (and Star Alliance) a run for the money in PDX. Would a 747 combi that comes in/goes back to YYZ make sense? I also don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past.

It's a long shot, but not outside the realm of possibility. If the rumor persists, look for LH to upgrade the FRA-PDX flights to daily year-round, and probably from an A343 to an A346. Time will tell.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:52 pm

I think if this were to happen it would be with Combis. There is quite a bit of cargo going out of YYC. Hell I hammer the front hold of AC's A330 flights to FRA and LHR full of cargo pretty much every day. Not to mention Cargolux, Asian Cargo and lately there's been a schwack of Russian heavy lift showing up, and the odd 742F from Polar.

That would be sweet if it did happen though Big grin

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Joost
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:01 pm

Around a year ago, there were quite some rumours about NW starting PDX-AMS, but never materialized. For that reason, it's not a new rumour.  Wink

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
Would a 747 combi that comes in/goes back to YYZ make sense? I also don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past.

I don't think so either, as AF-KL have stated (and acted accordingly) that they want to minimize the number of tag-ons on their flights. And especially for the PDX-market: why would it make sense to fly PDX-YYZ-AMS instead of PDX-MSP-AMS?
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:18 pm

Outside possibility for YYC...not so much for PDX with services to SEA and YVR nearby and PDX-Europe services well-served by LH.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:42 pm

Hypothetical question. If the routing were AMS-YYC-PDX, would KL/NW be allowed to sell tickets for the YYC-PDX portion of the flight? As far as I can tell no one has non-stops between the two cities. Perhaps that market itself would be somewhat lucrative?
 
bobnwa
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
LH has served FRA-PDX for the last 4 years (well, 4 years in March '07) and with cargo alone, the route is profitable

I seriously doubt that cargo alone makes this route profitable. Do you have a source for this info.
 
keesje
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:18 pm

On PDX given that it would be a joint NWA / KLM flight (just like all transatalntic flights. I think we are talking 2 markets:

1. PDX area to Europe / Middle East / Africa
2. Europe Europe / Middle East / Africa to Area PHX

The market AMS-PDX-AMS can be neglected (a dozen seats a day?)

NWA would have 100% sales responsibility in the US, KLM/AFI in Europe..
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PavlovsDog
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
The market AMS-PDX-AMS can be neglected (a dozen seats a day?)

I believe Nike has it's European operations in Amsterdam so I imagine that all twelve would be business class.
 
Virginia
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 21):

I believe Nike has it's European operations in Amsterdam so I imagine that all twelve would be business class.[/quote]


That's correct and they have a huge contract with LH so also has Adidas.
They work with BCD Travel alot.

Virginia
 
N174UA
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 19):
I seriously doubt that cargo alone makes this route profitable. Do you have a source for this info.

Nothing specific, however the flight was actively pursued by the likes of Nike, Adidas, Freightliner, and other PDX-area businesses with ties to Germany. For the first year, blocks of (presumably) discounted tickets were sold for employees of those companies to use that flight. I believe the Port releases cargo data that is brought through the airport, and the LH flight accounts for a good portion of those movements, besides the cargo operators.

Cargo is much more profitable of course that people, and since passenger revenue is made in the front of the airplane, it's worth nothing that the A343 used on the route does not have a first class section, and I'd be interested to see the loads in business class.
 
bobnwa
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:36 pm

I would doubt that there is a passenger route in the world (none combi aircraft) that is profitable just on the cargo alone. People on this forum like to say that, but no one can give numbers to prove it. Until they can, it ain't so.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 23):
Nothing specific, however the flight was actively pursued by the likes of Nike, Adidas, Freightliner, and other PDX-area businesses with ties to Germany. For the first year, blocks of (presumably) discounted tickets were sold for employees of those companies to use that flight. I believe the Port releases cargo data that is brought through the airport, and the LH flight accounts for a good portion of those movements, besides the cargo operators.

Cargo is much more profitable of course that people, and since passenger revenue is made in the front of the airplane, it's worth nothing that the A343 used on the route does not have a first class section, and I'd be interested to see the loads in business class.
 
N174UA
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
I would doubt that there is a passenger route in the world (none combi aircraft) that is profitable just on the cargo alone. People on this forum like to say that, but no one can give numbers to prove it. Until they can, it ain't so.

Along those lines, the only way to provide actual data to prove such a route exists would require the sharing of highly confidential company data, and for that reason it's likely no one here can show actual numbers, for fear of reprisal from that company in the form of legal action and breach of a confidentiality agreement. The last thing LH (or any other carrier) would want would be to have actual load factor data, cargo data, and related profitability information on their routes made public, on this site or wherever else, as it would invite unwanted competition, thus driving down any profit they currently enjoy. Every so often there are threads on this site where someone has posted future load factors for a given flight on a certain route, on a particular day. Doing so is violating rules of sharing highly sensitive future data, regardless of airline.

To that end, you're absolutely correct...without specific data, it's an educated guess. Some of us are better at making educated guesses based on what we know/see than others. PDX has struggled in the past to keep long-term international service, but LH is doing seemingly well, though it remains to be seen how long it lasts. They have upgraded the flight to daily during the winter season, possibly to ward off potential entrants for the PDX-Europe market, and if they upgrade it to an A346 in the future, that would suggest that the route is performing well.

[Edited 2006-12-08 16:09:21]
 
keesje
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 25):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
I would doubt that there is a passenger route in the world (none combi aircraft) that is profitable just on the cargo alone. People on this forum like to say that, but no one can give numbers to prove it. Until they can, it ain't so.

Along those lines, the only way to provide actual data to prove such a route exists would require the sharing of highly confidential company data, and for that reason it's likely no one here can show actual numbers, for fear of reprisal from that company in the form of legal action and breach of a confidentiality agreement.

There are lots of routes profittable without any significant cargo.. IMO now that the -8i also sold perhaps things will work out here on a.net regarding Cargo being such a money maker..
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bobnwa
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 26):
There are lots of routes profittable without any significant cargo

Right, but not the other way around is why I am saying.
 
bobnwa
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 26):
There are lots of routes profittable without any significant cargo

Right, but not the other way around is why I am saying.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
Would a 747 combi that comes in/goes back to YYZ make sense? I also don't think so, but I've been wrong in the past.

AMS-YYZ is operated with the full-pax KL 744s PH-BFA/B/G/L/N and with B772s in the Winter.
Summer 2007 sees an increase to YYZ with the daily 744 plus 6x weekly 772 service.

I would love to see KL at YYC, maybe with a MD11 or A332?

Cheers,
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sllevin
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 14):
That in itself (profits) signals to competitors that PDX-Europe can be profitable. But for two carriers? That's where my skepticism comes into play

You could be right, but I'd put my money on KL with the NW and AS ties to be the winner over the long haul.

Steve
 
ACDC8
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:03 am

The last KLM flights into YYC were in the summer of 1995. They were operated as a stop over on the YVR-AMS or AMS-YVR legs. They were operated with the B747 Combis. IIRC, YYC was dropped when KLM introduced the MD11 service between YVR and AMS during the summer of 1995 since YYC was still offered in May but no longer in September 1995. Out of the many times I have flown this route, there was lot's of cargo (horses and even a helicopter once) stuffed into the back of the 747, but most of the pax boarded in YVR.
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yegmaster
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 31):
The last KLM flights into YYC were in the summer of 1995

Hmm, not exactly.
My wife and I flew KLM (MD11) in the spring of 1996, from YYC to AMS and back.
Cheers
 
cschleic
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:53 am

For PDX, it would seem doubtful. When the Port of Portland secured LH service from Frankfurt, plus NW to Tokyo and Mexicana to Mexico, Bill Wyatt the head of the port indicated the plan was to get once carrier from each region, and no more. They offerred incentives to those carriers, and didn't want to jeopardize traffic by seeking out competition. Plus, as mentioned above, NW/KL provides service from YVR, SEA and SFO.

However, you never know. NW began PDX-HNL service recently competing against Hawaiian. If it happened, I wonder if it would be NW instead of KL. The U.S.- AMS flights generally are NW from northern cities (SEA, DTW, MSP, BOS) and KL from the rest (SFO, LAX, IAH), with some exceptions, of course.
 
ACDC8
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Yegmaster (Reply 32):
My wife and I flew KLM (MD11) in the spring of 1996, from YYC to AMS and back.
Cheers

They may have revived the YYC service for a short period of time, since the YVR service was droped to 3x up to 4x weekly during 1996, the available aircraft may have then been used for the remaining days to fly to YYC during that year.
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wolsingerjet
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:25 pm

MP flys this route and does well with a 2x weekly 763 over a AMS-YEG-YYC route and vise versa on certain days.Would not surprise me to see this route re instated along with YEG as both cities see extreme positive growth pax wise...This rumor has been around for a while.....
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lijnden
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:01 pm

Maybe KLM will fly their old B767-300 (PH-BZO) that they sold to PrivatAir on the route? Business flight with a larger than normal cargo capacity.
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LJ
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
I would doubt that there is a passenger route in the world (none combi aircraft) that is profitable just on the cargo alone. People on this forum like to say that, but no one can give numbers to prove it. Until they can, it ain't so.

Well, Amsterdam - Kilimanjaro - Dar es Salaam - Amsterdam (flown 6 times weekly with a MD11 year round) is one. KLM even mentioned this once as the reason for the existence of the route (or do you really think that so many people travel to Tanzania during off peak season). Off course, they weren't stupid in releasing actual data (not that it matters as the cargo traffic out of Kilimanjaro is point-to-point traffic anyway).
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 29):
AMS-YYZ is operated with the full-pax KL 744s PH-BFA/B/G/L/N and with B772s in the Winter.
Summer 2007 sees an increase to YYZ with the daily 744 plus 6x weekly 772 service.

Just a couple of small mistakes here: there is one more B744 full pax, PH-BFH, and KLM is currently still running the B744s to YYZ. The route will revert to B772 for the quietest period of the winter only between January an March. The additional B772 evening services next summer will, however, only run 5 times weekly.

Quoting LJ (Reply 37):
Well, Amsterdam - Kilimanjaro - Dar es Salaam - Amsterdam (flown 6 times weekly with a MD11 year round) is one.

You are right about the cargo performance of this route, but the route is operated daily year round with MD11. Last summer saw in upgrade to the B772ER, but that is not planned for next summer.
 
bobnwa
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RE: KLM To YYC & PDX?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 37):
Well, Amsterdam - Kilimanjaro - Dar es Salaam - Amsterdam (flown 6 times weekly with a MD11 year round) is one. KLM even mentioned this once as the reason for the existence of the route (or do you really think that so many people travel to Tanzania during off peak season). Off course, they weren't stupid in releasing actual data (not that it matters as the cargo traffic out of Kilimanjaro is point-to-point traffic anyway).

I'm sure the cargo revenue on this route is significant, but I would have to be shown proof that it is protitable by itself. Or show the article where a KLM official said this.

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