baron95
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What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:11 pm

Please lets not mention Boeing on this thread. Thanks.

I have searched endlessly for this info, but found nothing specific - maybe some of you can help.

Airbus claims to have completed all A380 certification prereqs and expects certification next week. They also claim that there are no outstanding weight or performance issues. They claim that they already have a fix for the wiring problem. There are several (7?) planes that have flown and more (reports of up to 20, which I think is incorrect) already built/being built.

Discounting the first token airplane delivery to SQ promissed in late 2007, Airbus schedule calls for the second and third A380s to be delivered in 1Q/2008.

The question is: What the heck is Airbus doing to these frames that takes 15 months????!!!??? This is unprecedented - 15 months to deliver a frame that is already flying (for a while) and certified (next week). Why hasn't any customer, journalist or analyst pressed Airbus for an answer? Am I missing something? Can it really take 15 months to retrofit the wiring fix engineering change to frames already built or in assembly?

It takes 60-90 days to strip an old airliner and upgrade it with new interior, new IFE, etc. How can it take the Airbus factory 15 months to retrofit the wiring fix? Something does not compute in my mind. Could there be another major problem still not reported? Wouldn't the EK on-site audit have uncovered that?

Any ideas?

[Edited 2006-12-08 09:14:20]
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
SailorOrion
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:26 pm

This is a question that has crossed my mind multiple times and I can honestly say that I have no friggin' idea. The main problem is that all these frames bind a sh!tload of $$$ that the company would dearly need to fix a bit of the mess they have generated recently. Now while I have some info about what the wiring issue actually is, I'm not sure why it takes 15 months. And frankly, I'm amazed that people (worker bees, engineers and management) in Toulouse and Hamburg are NOT working 24/7 to get their act together, but instead plan chrismas vacation.

SailorOrion
 
Eureka
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
They also claim that there are no outstanding weight or performance issues.

I believe what they've usually said in regard to weight and performance issues, and by performance I mean fuel mileage not something trivial in this context like crosswind capability, is that they are meeting their customer commitments. Meeting customer commitments can mean a wide range of things. Examples include max takeoff weight increases at no charge to recover range, committing to design changes at no charge to improve performance, and/or paying remedies to the airline for the additional cost incurred due to a performance shortfall.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
Airbus claims to have completed all A380 certification prereqs and expects certification next week. They also claim that there are no outstanding weight or performance issues. They claim that they already have a fix for the wiring problem. There are several (7?) planes that have flown and more (reports of up to 20, which I think is incorrect) already built/being built.

I think that the eight (SQs third production frame) flew late November. There are also at least 10 in various states of build around TLS so 20 is probably correct.

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
The question is: What the heck is Airbus doing to these frames that takes 15 months????!!!???

They are re-wiring them - but first they have to get the plan correct - they are using one plane as a 3d plan to get the wiring worked out, documenting that as they go along. Then they can do the others.

The planes currently flying have a simplified basic wiring rig to make the plane work but doesn't incorporate IFE etc so they will all need to be updated.

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
This is unprecedented - 15 months to deliver a frame that is already flying (for a while) and certified (next week). Why hasn't any customer, journalist or analyst pressed Airbus for an answer? Am I missing something? Can it really take 15 months to retrofit the wiring fix engineering change to frames already built or in assembly?

It was stated by Tom Enders that it takes 5 months to rewire one plane but they cannot start until the 3D plan is in place.


It is unlikely that there is any other sort of big issue!
 
keesje
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
What the heck is Airbus doing to these frames that takes 15 months????!!!???

Good question. I can imagine that if some of those hugh wiring buddles going through the complete aircraft have to be replaced this will take a lot of time. agree 15 months is long.

I think they decided it was better (less bad) to fix some things (software, process, organisation) thouroughly instead of postponing a solution by quick fixes..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:00 pm

I was thinking of a good analogy and this isn't great but here goes!

Imagine going to the shops and buying 5000 stard packets of spaghetti, then taking each packet and joining each piece end to end to give a 500' piece of pasta.

Budle the 4500 500' strands together in small, medium, large and huge bundles and drape all over your house, down the cavity walls, under the floor, completly fill the kitchen cupboards and lob some over the trees in the garden.

Now someone comes along and says that some of the wholemeal strands need to be cut in half and joined with some of the plain one, some of which also need to be joined with the multicoloured ones and some of the plain ones need to be connected to the quick-cook ones etc.....

Oh and you don't have a proper plan as the recipe was wrong in the first place.

Right and you've got to do that in 19 houses.

That's why it's taking so long and I think that they're being as conservative as possible to be sure that it's impossible to have any further delays!
 
797charter
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:18 pm

HI

Quote: The problem is to do with the design of the electrical cable harnesses for the fore and aft fuselage. This comprises 530 kilometres of wires which are connected to 100,000 individual cable sections with 40,300 connectors and 350 kilometres of length per aircraft. The A380's wiring is twice as complex as the A340-600's.
Source: http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRHeft06/FRH0612/FR0612b.htm

I suggest that those of you who not has seen this article to read it, it is rather well-written and throw light on some of the problems they have in TLS.

Regards

Steen
Keep it clear of the propellers
 
baroque
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):

Right and you've got to do that in 19 houses.

I hope the issue does not get any worse, partly for the A380 and partly for the vision of hell that your next analogy would conjure up - f*cking brilliant as Pameal Stephenson's hubbie would say!

Quoting 797charter (Reply 6):
I suggest that those of you who not has seen this article to read it, it is rather well-written and throw light on some of the problems they have in TLS.

Great article, so it is all Windows fault - again. Perhaps the A380 should be painted pro tem in those strange vertical stripes that have replaced the blue screen of death! When they are removed, we will know the program has rebooted successfully.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Great article, so it is all Windows fault - again. Perhaps the A380 should be painted pro tem in those strange vertical stripes that have replaced the blue screen of death! When they are removed, we will know the program has rebooted successfully.

 Big grin

I was on a train last week and one of the carriages was really, really hot and the train manager apologised about this but said nothing could be done until the end of the line and the train could be re-booted. There was a giant egg-timer on the outside of the train that wouldn't move I noticed........
 
baroque
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 8):
There was a giant egg-timer on the outside of the train that wouldn't move I noticed........

Sooo, we need to scan all the A380 pics for static eggtimers - could be.

But a serious question. Are Airbus taking advantage of the pause to fix or otherwise improve any other issues? You would hope that the A380 that appears after the 1 or 2 year delay, depending on how you are counting, is better than the one that went into the sleep, otherwise it would be rather like the tale of Rip van Winkle.

In another thread, I asked if RR would take the opportunity of the pause in Trent 900 production to exit with a better unit. The answer from on high (you know where engine answers come from that is high up!) was that there were some smaller things that they might do.

IIRC, the 707 and 747s after a year or so in production were much better than the models at introduction. You would hope that Airbus might use the enforced delay to do something even better, not being cluttered up with high volume production - alas!
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
IIRC, the 707 and 747s after a year or so in production were much better than the models at introduction. You would hope that Airbus might use the enforced delay to do something even better, not being cluttered up with high volume production - alas!

Too young to remember that but have just been reading about the heavy wings on the first few A346s which was improved after that so the same thing will probably happen here.
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:38 pm

60-90 days to re-wire an old airliner of similar size? No, I don´t think so, size is the problem, but problem are to be solved....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
mbj2000
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):

You really want to know?! Ok, here's my version of the story.
Remember it's a truly european company, so the employees have to get around months of paid vacation. Imagine the working day of a franco-german Airbus employee:
1) Return to work on Monday after a 3 weeks vacation on the Atlantic coast near Biarritz, Mallorca or the Dominican Republic.
2) Find out, you have 380 unread emails in your Inbox
3) Go to long meetings on Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday
4) Making a lot of phone calls to/from Toulouse/Hamburg to get the current status of the A380 rewiring works
5) Drink a lot of coffee with your colleagues, tell them about your nice holidays and show them the pictures
6) It's Friday, after lunch leave for the weekend
7) Before that start planning your next holidays beggining in 4 weeks

:D
Welcome to Europe!
I hope you all have a nice Friday!

p.s. Nevertheless I'd also want to know the real reason behind the huge delays...

[Edited 2006-12-08 11:45:08]
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
leelaw
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
What the heck is Airbus doing to these frames that takes 15 months?

IIRC, when I asked a similar question a few weeks ago it was WingedMigrator who likened the loss of "configuration control" on the 15-16 airframes (5 test aircraft, 10-11 production airframes) already assembled on the A380 line to this point as the equivalent of smashing a "Ming Vase" and then trying to piece it back together again. Whether the 10-22 month timeframe (depending on the early operator SQ, QF, EY, EK) Airbus is currently projecting as necessary to commence meaningful deliveries to customers is reasonable seems to be another question altogether. Apparently, Tim Clark was asking the same questions, hence he ordered EK's own "production audit" which by all accounts took place in mid-November. Unfortunately, so far, there has been scant information on the findings of EK's audit team. AFAIK, there still hasn't been a decisive utterance forthcoming on this matter from the generally loquacious Mr. Clark himself.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
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autothrust
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:27 pm

AFAIK they still have problems with the ramp up process. They have find a standardisation for the wires but the ramp up is lagging behind. Also there are some problems with the landing gear doors, and have to be strengthend.
IMO Airbus is fixing all this issues and want be 100% sure the plane will be delivered almost bug-free and matured. But somehow i also think its taking to long.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
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solnabo
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:16 pm

Me think that the 388 hopefully will be the "ketchup effect":

Nothing.....nothing.....nothing....and then all at same time, SQ get their 2 a/c first, then (dont know the #2 costumer) ans so on...

Micke// Big grin
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
albird87
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:22 pm

Can someone please tell me what is the problem with the wires?? is it that there isnt any space for them or that the current caused by them is causing a magnetic field which is influencing working surfaces???
Please if someone could update me on this it would be great!!
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 16):
Can someone please tell me what is the problem with the wires?? is it that there isnt any space for them or that the current caused by them is causing a magnetic field which is influencing working surfaces???
Please if someone could update me on this it would be great!!

It's explained quite well in the article linked above but a good analogy would be a prefabricated house where the wires and pipes are pre-installed in the walls before the walls are glued together to make a house.

When they came to mate the sections of the production planes (walls of house) together they found that the wires (wires and pipes) didn;t meet up correctly.

The prototype planes were delivered in sections with basic wiring that worke but changes decided on as par of testing and the addition of IFE wiring messed everything up - the computer programs had a funny turn and the production planes were all wrong.

The problem is apparantly fixed for any planes after number 19 (?) on the line but that leaves 19 planes to sort out!
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 16):
Can someone please tell me what is the problem with the wires??

You haven't been paying attention in class, have you?  Wink

Here's a link to a story in a CAD online magazine that covers the details pretty well:

http://manufacturing.cadalyst.com/ma...rticle/articleDetail.jsp?id=390123
Jets are for kids
 
baroque
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 10):
Too young to remember that but have just been reading about the heavy wings on the first few A346s which was improved after that so the same thing will probably happen here.

Do you have a reference or a link to that? I have read that it happened, but not an account of what they did.

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 12):
I hope you all have a nice Friday!

We told you not to disclose the German sense of humour, oh, you were NOT joking. Ah zo.

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 18):
You haven't been paying attention in class, have you? Wink

Send him to study under MJB2000 who is being kept in to work on Saturday.  angel 
 
albird87
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 18):
You haven't been paying attention in class, have you?

Here's a link to a story in a CAD online magazine that covers the details pretty well

Sorry had more important things to do rather than read articles all day!!

Link doesnt work!!
any other links could be given??
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 17):
The problem is apparantly fixed for any planes after number 19 (?) on the line but that leaves 19 planes to sort out!

And if I was a customer, I'd be asking why Airbus doesn't build and deliver a brand-spanking-new, all-sorted-out A380? Get the line moving, and sort out the 19 (or however many) botched frames in parallel. Deliver out of sequence...but deliver sooner. Why the hell not?  hissyfit 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):

Do you have a reference or a link to that? I have read that it happened, but not an account of what they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A340

It is wikipedia so there's the usual health warning but have a look in the A340-600 section
 
JAAlbert
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 12):
Drink a lot of coffee with your colleagues, tell them about your nice holidays and show them the pictures

Don't forget to add "smoke LOTS of cigarettes" as so many Eurpeans are fond of doing
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
Airbus claims to have completed all A380 certification prereqs and expects certification next week.

Well, one of the things they will be doing in the 10 months before first delivery will be completing the Type Certification testing. The TC next week will not include a maximum energy refused takeoff demonstration and the autoland qualification.

While next week's TC will be perfectly valid, no airline would accept an airplane of this category without completion of these two vital bits of capability.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
airlineaddict
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):
And if I was a customer, I'd be asking why Airbus doesn't build and deliver a brand-spanking-new, all-sorted-out A380? Get the line moving, and sort out the 19 (or however many) botched frames in parallel. Deliver out of sequence...but deliver sooner. Why the hell not? hissyfit

Good point. For EK, this would be a good question to ask. However, what would Airbus say to SQ?
 
khobar
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
They are re-wiring them - but first they have to get the plan correct - they are using one plane as a 3d plan to get the wiring worked out, documenting that as they go along. Then they can do the others.

Airbus claims a 5.5 month time for complete re-wiring. MSN003 was reported to have been rewired (by June) and sitting in Hamburg waiting for paint. They are using MSN003 as the guide to use for the other planes.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Now someone comes along and says that some of the wholemeal strands need to be cut in half and joined with some of the plain one, some of which also need to be joined with the multicoloured ones and some of the plain ones need to be connected to the quick-cook ones etc.....

Oh and you don't have a proper plan as the recipe was wrong in the first place.

Right and you've got to do that in 19 houses.

Do what Airbus has already said they've been doing - replacing the bundles with new ones of the correct length when needed, and lengthening others when not.

Testing demonstrated the need for structural changes in the A380 airframe, and these structural changes required moving some of the wiring (as per the article). So, your "house" changed too.
 
baroque
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 22):
It is wikipedia so there's the usual health warning but have a look in the A340-600 section

Thanks. I think I might have seen that and that one does need a bit of a health warning. It is a bit odd, tells you they were overweight but not why and whether the lighter ones were a new spec, or they just thought they were a good idea!! Presumably, they did two sets of tests?? Also not mentioned in Wiki, but relevant in view of the numbers here who would like the strengthened A380 wing retested.
 
Oykie
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):
And if I was a customer, I'd be asking why Airbus doesn't build and deliver a brand-spanking-new, all-sorted-out A380? Get the line moving, and sort out the 19 (or however many) botched frames in parallel. Deliver out of sequence...but deliver sooner. Why the hell not?

I wondered about the very same thing. Wait with the 19 first examples. Keep the production line going. Then when you are ready fix each of the 19 first A380. Then sell them at cost-prize to airlines who already fly their A380. It must be allot cheaper to continue the production and deliver the planes faster, than halt the production and deliver all planes later.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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sebolino
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 1):
And frankly, I'm amazed that people (worker bees, engineers and management) in Toulouse and Hamburg are NOT working 24/7 to get their act together, but instead plan chrismas vacation.

What a silly thing to say.
I believe Airbus employees have been really hard pressured lately to clean up the mess.

Not working 24 hours a day ? What a bunch of lazy frogs !
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting AirlineAddict (Reply 25):
Good point. For EK, this would be a good question to ask. However, what would Airbus say to SQ?

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying that Airbus should go ahead and deliver to EK, but rather that they should build a new A380 for SQ and deliver it. Keep the orders in sequence, but deliver new-build airframes now and the reworked airframes later.

I suppose EY would be an exception, as IIRC they are taking the 4 test aircraft under a special deal.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
baroque
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 30):
Not working 24 hours a day ? What a bunch of lazy frogs !

What about producing specially shortened Gallois?
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:45 am

Why can't Airbus just empty all the wiring from the current plane, design a new wiring harness and put it back in, instead of "fixing" the already installed wiring. I bet if they can get it right, it will be much cheaper than paying all the engineers to work overtime. Installing a wiring harness to a plane should not take more than 1 month right?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
haggis79
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 33):
Why can't Airbus just empty all the wiring from the current plane, design a new wiring harness and put it back in,

I guess that's exactly what they do right now....

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 31):
but rather that they should build a new A380 for SQ and deliver it.

before you start building new airframes you should figure out HOW to exactly building them....
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 34):
before you start building new airframes you should figure out HOW to exactly building them....

My comments follow the premise that Airbus has sorted out the wiring problems. The original posting says:

Quoting Baron95 (Thread starter):
They claim that they already have a fix for the wiring problem.

and asks why if this is the case will it take 15 months to deliver the aircraft...
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
flysherwood
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 3):
It is unlikely that there is any other sort of big issue!

Really? Why would you assume that? Because Airbus says so?  Smile
 
rampart
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
I was thinking of a good analogy and this isn't great but here goes!

No, it's great, works for me! Very apt, I think.

-Rampart
 
jacobin777
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:11 am

"Up the Irons!"
 
Oroka
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:41 am

Hopefully they are taking a page from the company that starts with a 'B' and the 15 month estimate was conservative. I think there is a good chance Airbus will rise from the ashes 5-6 months eairly to much fanfair.
 
bsu747
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:42 am

Just a thought, with all the technology around these days, why don't they have a wireless plane!! mischievous 
You might solve the problem in one bit hit, and think if you need to "re-wire" the plane you won't have too!! stirthepot 
I know it won't be as simple as that but if you could it would reduce the weight of the plane, saving fuel and maintainence time.
Have the likes of Airbus or Boeing thought about it? I know the whole plane can't be wireless but surely they can incorporate it some systems like the IFE system. optimist 
BSU747
Flying may not be all plain sailing, but the fun of it is worth the price.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 39):
Hopefully they are taking a page from the company that starts with a 'B' and the 15 month estimate was conservative. I think there is a good chance Airbus will rise from the ashes 5-6 months eairly to much fanfair.

I do too, not because of any A vs B thing, but I want to see the A380 in service!
 
bbobbo
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting BSU747 (Reply 40):
Have the likes of Airbus or Boeing thought about it? I know the whole plane can't be wireless but surely they can incorporate it some systems like the IFE system.

787 will have wireless IFE. 747-8I too, supposedly.
 
sphealey
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RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:52 am

> They are re-wiring them - but first they have
> to get the plan correct - they are using one
> plane as a 3d plan to get the wiring worked out,
> documenting that as they go along. Then they
> can do the others.

I have a hard time understanding how an airframe can receive JAA/FAA certification without a final production conformance document, which in turn would require a final wiring plan (and I would prefer a physical test article, but I know I am old-fashioned on that point). It seems to me that certification is being granted to a design that might not be manufactured as demonstrated.

I must be missing something here - can anyone help me understand this? Thanks.

sPh
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:05 am

Airbus is developing a nasty habit of stretching too far in their claims. Probably, when they said the wiring problems were resolved - what they meant is that they have a plan. It doesn't mean they have executed the plan or that the plan worked. I really wish that someone would take control of Airbus communications and insert some discipline - they state things that aren't quite accurate, the claim things too early, and overtly bash their competition in somewhat petty ways. All in all, I am learning to not believe anything that ever comes out of Airbus. All these statements do more to damage their credibility than help.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 43):
I have a hard time understanding how an airframe can receive JAA/FAA certification without a final production conformance document

The Production Certificate and Type Certificate are separate events. It is quite possible to get a TC without a PC.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
CYatUK
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:21 am

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 44):
what they meant is that they have a plan

But if I am not wrong that is exaclty what they said. They said they have a plan in place, a programme with timescales and that was used to determine the delivery date of the first aircraft.

The programme (as every programme) contains a risk either "good" i.e. delivery before predicted date or "bad" i.e. delivery after the predicted date.

A Project Manager can NEVER predict the exact date of completion of a project. The risk is always there and that is why big projects like A380 or the Wembley stadium in London are late.

When you start a new project you always do multiple risk assessments but there will always be risks that you can't fully control or are difficult to control.

The only way to find out is when the risk happens but it is too late then.
CY@Uk
 
Oroka
Posts: 1077
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 44):
It seems to me that certification is being granted to a design that might not be manufactured as demonstrated.

The way I see it, they have a working wiring harness, but they are just going to tweak, optimize, and improve it to the standard they would like to have. They are getting the A380 certified on the basic harness... now they have to make it better.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:29 am

Another thing to consider but which is not a technical issue is the effect on cash flow.

It is quite possible, and Airbus has admitted as much, that some of the contracts are loss making. The earliest contracts are likely to be the loss making ones. Also Airbus do not have to pay their suppliers until they get paid upon delivery. Hence the scream from suppliers for financial support.

So if they deliver a lot of aircraft quickly, they could have a huge negative cash flow, [and I am just supposing], which could threaten the company.
Dragging out the deliveries may paradoxically save them, and allow cash flow from other lines to finance the delays. Is this also why the ramp up to the 350 is so slow? Main spending does not commence until positive cash flow starts from the 380 in 2010.

Just a thought.

Ruscoe
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 39):
I think there is a good chance Airbus will rise from the ashes 5-6 months eairly to much fanfair.

Imagine the surprised looks at SQ when Airbus unexpectedly delivers all their A380's in a batch. Their fleet planners would be thrilled...NOT.  Wow!
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: What Is Airbus Doing To The A380?!?

Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:37 am

Now this worries me about airbus. Now i am presuming that this aircraft was designed through CAD!! now if you excuse me what the hell software did they use as i want to avoid it!! I mean seriously how do you create it and then see that there was a problem!!! some one should of been fired i think quite a while ago!! i mean the 777 was designed with CAD and this got rid of bits not fittin correctly!!!