leelaw
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Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:25 pm

...the shape of the future is a beautiful, iconic airplane called the 747...

...I, for one, never gave up on the 747. There was a time not too long ago when the media was writing the epitaph for the Queen of the Skies. Some have even been quoted this week as saying the 747 is on its "last legs." But does an airplane that has had 73 orders since its launch just over a year ago sound like it's on its last legs?

I'm reminded of what Joe Sutter told me earlier this year, when he pointed out that there have been lots of airplanes designed after the 747, but none have been able to fly faster or adapt better over the years. As Joe put it: "It's been able to absorb technology in every area - structure, aerodynamics, power plant, cockpit systems. It's just as modern as any airplane flying out there because Boeing has continued to invest in the product, and the basic product was right, so the investment pays off..."


http://www.boeing.com/randy/
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ikramerica
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:59 pm

While Randy is full of hyperbole here, the point about absorbing technology is a valid one. And the comment that the "basic product was right" also can't be ignored (well, not the basic product, but the product right after the initial frames).

I hadn't flown a 747 on a real trip in a long while until these past two weeks. Other than 1 ITM-NRT leg 3 years ago, the 747 had all been eliminated from my life for many, many, many years.

But flying on two 744ERs and a 743, I was reminded of how great this plane is. I flew at the front on two flights (seats 1K and 3A) and the back on another (seat 70K).

We had to fly very fast on one leg because we left nearly 2 hours late but only had 45 minutes of leeway on arrival to meet a hard curfew at SYD. We made it with 6 minutes to spare, and despite flying at high speeds at low altitudes (30k most of the flight), the ride was smooth and quiet. Can any other airliner do that? (don't know, but doubt it). The regional config 743 didn't seem crowded despite being very full, and boarding and deplaning was fast. It took turbulence with ease, and was quiet despite it's age. And the return 744ER showed the value of a good pressure vessel. I had a bad cold, and the two 767 flights earlier in the day proved painful for my congested head. But the 744ER held it's pressure far better, allowing my ears time to adjust and offering no pain on climb or descent. Not bad for an outdated design that was built with sliderules and spit in a very short time.

I can only assume that the improvements in stability and cabin comfort of the 748i will keep it closely competitive with any brand new jet on the market. If only the Y seats were wider...  Sad
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Thorben
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:00 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
...the shape of the future is a beautiful, iconic airplane called the 747...

Yes, shape of the future, completely new, never been used in the past.  Big grin

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
...I, for one, never gave up on the 747. There was a time not too long ago when the media was writing the epitaph for the Queen of the Skies. Some have even been quoted this week as saying the 747 is on its "last legs." But does an airplane that has had 73 orders since its launch just over a year ago sound like it's on its last legs?

The last legs may last a little longer. The A300 is still being delivered as a freighter, too.

Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tail.
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zvezda
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
We had to fly very fast on one leg because we left nearly 2 hours late but only had 45 minutes of leeway on arrival to meet a hard curfew at SYD. We made it with 6 minutes to spare,

Now that the Concorde has been retired, the Jumbo is the fastest airliner.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
despite flying at high speeds at low altitudes (30k most of the flight), the ride was smooth and quiet. Can any other airliner do that?

The A340 is quieter and the B777 is smoother in turbulence (vertical component only). The B787 will be yet even smoother in turbulence (both vertically and laterally).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
And the return 744ER showed the value of a good pressure vessel. I had a bad cold, and the two 767 flights earlier in the day proved painful for my congested head. But the 744ER held it's pressure far better, allowing my ears time to adjust and offering no pain on climb or descent.

The Jumbo has 7000' altitude cabin pressure. Other airliners have 8000' altitude cabin pressure. The B787 (and probably the A350) will have 6000' altitude cabin pressure.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tail.

That is a ridiculous statement, for Boeing has been "justifying" cutting the air with that bump for almost 40 years, and with more 747s than Airbus could shake a stick at.

SparkingWave ~~~
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ikramerica
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:01 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
The A340 is quieter and the B777 is smoother in turbulence (vertical component only).

That's not what I meant.

I meant can any other jetliner fly at that high a rate of speed at that low an altitude and still maintain a stable, quiet ride? The A340 is quiet, but at mach 0.825 and at higher altitude. We were traveling at 0.89 at 30k! The A340 can't cruise that fast, and I don't know of any data about the quietness of the A340 as it speeds up. I assume it must be quieter at all speeds, but that doesn't always hold for cars. And again, the A340 can't cruise at that speed anyway. Which was the point. If QF were flying the A346, we would not have made curfew. Period.

The 777 is stable, but I've been on one flying at relatively high speed to Japan, and the turbulence was incredible in places, even on a lie flat seat I was glad I had my seatbelt on so I wouldn't fly out of the bed. On the 744ER, we flew through some thunderheads (going around them would have meant missing curfew) and the plane took it well. The water in the glasses spun like crazy, but I didn't feel "out of sorts" like on the 777 in similar situations, and my seatbelt was never tugged on. Of course I'm comparing different flights, and all situations are different, but all I was saying was that for such an old design, the 747 feels just as modern as much newer aircraft, which was Randy's point.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
The Jumbo has 7000' altitude cabin pressure. Other airliners have 8000' altitude cabin pressure.

It's not just the 1000' pressure difference, but the ability of a plane to maintain constant pressure as it climbs. I've noticed some models are much better at this than others. The 767 seems to go through lots of variation as it climbs, not losing total pressure and I'm sure remaining within tolerances, but not maintaining a consistent pressure as well as the 747. Older jets from other companies had the same problem, which is why your ears pop more on older planes than on most newer jets. The 747 had no such issues these trip, both the two 744ERs and the much older 743.
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ClassicLover
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:23 pm

Of course the aircraft is the shape of the future. A new derivative has just been launched and it has many improvements over the previous version.

To be honest, I think Boeing and Airbus have both got it right - the placement of the 744 in the 450 seat category, and the placement of the A380 in the 500+ category. The A380 is built to be stretched, and we'll see bigger variants if the market dictates.

In the meantime, airlines who need more capacity than a 777 and less than an A380 will buy the 748. Those that need more will buy the A380. Between them, both manufacturers have a product spread that will fit just about any airline requiring aircraft with 100+ seats.

Viva 747!
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:54 pm

Randy wrote:

Lufthansa says its 747-8s will be configured to about 400 seats, and that the -8 "slots neatly capacity-wise between the A380 with around 550 seats and the A340-600 with around 300 seats."

Does this mean the 747 will be the premier choice for upper class passengers? 550 on a A380 is going to be tight compared to 400 on a 747?
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zvezda
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Does this mean the 747 will be the premier choice for upper class passengers?

Not necessarily. It depends on how each airline configures its seating.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
550 on a A380 is going to be tight compared to 400 on a 747?

Yes.
 
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Does this mean the 747 will be the premier choice for upper class passengers?

You could say so, because upper class people hardly travel with a double decker bus  Wink
Fun, aside. The A380 will be put on routes with lots of demand. Many premium passsengers prefer A319ACJ, BBJ flights by Privatair anyway
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
I don't know of any data about the quietness of the A340 as it speeds up.

One of the reasons the A340 is quiet is because of its low cruise Mach. This is particularly true of the A342/3 that cruise at .805M. The .825M cruise speed of the A345/6 increases their cabin noise by 1 to 2 dBA, depending on seating location.
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AT502B
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tai

That "bump" you mention is actually what helps make the B747 THE fastest commercial airliner at the moment.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:07 am

I believe the 747, with it's second story cockpit swept back from the nose, makes the plane have a sleek, swift appearance. I also read recently that the 748I will be the longest passenger jet in the world when built. How cool is that? In comparison, the nose of 380 (which will be fun to ride in so stop bothering me) has a very stubby appearance, especially these first models. Perhaps when the stretch version comes along the 380 might appear more proportionate.

Needless to say, I have always loved the 747 and am thrilled it has been given new life. I hope UA and NW order it as replacements for their current fleet
 
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting reply 2. The last legs may last a little longer. The A300 is still being delivered as a freighter, too.

The A300 have officially ceased production forever. The 747 may even out last the A380
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BoomBoom
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:48 am

What is this round thing in the cabin?

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leelaw
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
What is this round thing in the cabin?

The futuristic operating table where Randy implants mind-control chips in the brains of various journalists reporting on the aviation/aerospace beat to guarantee that the Boeing "storyline" is disseminated properly.  Big grin
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radelow
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tail.

If you are going to make a statement like that at least back it up with facts. The hump actually makes the aircraft more aerodynamic. That is why it is STILL the fastest flying commercial jet in history (excluding the Concorde of course).

What's really amazing to me is that an aircraft designed in the 50's and 60's with sliderules and paper, still is proving a valid and efficient aircraft some 50 years later. Amazing if you really think about it. Will the 777 and 787 see the same history? Somehow I don't think so.
 
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
The 777 is stable, but I've been on one flying at relatively high speed to Japan, and the turbulence was incredible in places, even on a lie flat seat I was glad I had my seatbelt on so I wouldn't fly out of the bed. On the 744ER, we flew through some thunderheads (going around them would have meant missing curfew) and the plane took it well.

I flew on a UA 777 into the remnants of a hurricane at EWR a few years back and that plane was rock-solid stable.  Wink

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
What is this round thing in the cabin?

Poker table?  duck 
 
dl021
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tail.

That area rule/contoured shape it has enables it to fly faster than almost anything larger than a C-X right now, and has yet to be bested for aerodynamic efficiency.

The double decks don't seem to be doing a tremendous amount for the A-380 lately, and certainly nothing for A-380F sales.

As far as THE fastest commercial jet still carrying passengers would be the DC-8 (which still carries pax between Boston and Thule, as well as a private Swiss concern who bought ARAMCO's former executive jet) which during testing actually exceeded Mach 1 in a dive. (Yeah, at the wingtips, but there you have it.....)
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BoomBoom
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
The futuristic operating table where Randy implants mind-control chips in the brains of various journalists

Silly me, I thought it resembled a trampoline.
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Devilfish
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Yes, shape of the future, completely new, never been used in the past.

Whatever you say, it's still sleeker and more graceful than the over/under Whale Shotgun.  Smile  duck 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
That area rule/contoured shape it has enables it to fly faster than almost anything larger than a C-X right now, and has yet to be bested for aerodynamic efficiency.

The double decks don't seem to be doing a tremendous amount for the A-380 lately, and certainly nothing for A-380F sales.

 checkmark 
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lightsaber
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting AT502B (Reply 11):
That "bump" you mention is actually what helps make the B747 THE fastest commercial airliner at the moment.

I'm impressed how the 747 engineers, given a design "minus" with the cockpit above, turned it into an aerodynamic improvement. That "bump" cuts fuel costs quite a bit...

And man is it going to be its own true deck on the 748I...

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 19):

Silly me, I thought it resembled a trampoline.

I must not be *that* old, my first 20 thoughts were bad Austin Powers lines...  Wink For only his 747 would need a round trampoline...

However, I do find certain faults with the 747. The amount of space under the cargo floor is huge. I cannot believe how much I sink down if I step between the ribs of one. What that translates to is the plane is pushing a lot of air out of its way that it doesn't need to. So while I agree the 748 will be competitive for a bit (mostly the 748F), there is a bit of "low hanging fruit" left to be trimmed.

I'll let the market decide which is the better plane. Let's see how the sales are after 2015 when both are in the fleet.  Smile

Lightsaber
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Max Q
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:31 am

Still the queen of the skies.

The ultimate subsonic passenger and freight aircraft I believe.

The 777 is a sweet machine but nothing is the same as the original Jumbo.

I would love to fly one.

The -8 series will be a superb aircraft.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
A350
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
You could say so, because upper class people hardly travel with a double decker bus  
Fun, aside. The A380 will be put on routes with lots of demand. Many premium passsengers prefer A319ACJ, BBJ flights by Privatair anyway

You can take the upper class literally  Wink

Keep in mind that LHs first calss in in the top of the Jumbos, so it's a little bit like Privatair. For that reason, I can imagine to see the Jumbos on the premium routes and the Whales on the bulk routes, although not very strictly.

A350
 
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Anyway, the 747 shape allows a nose door and makes it a good cargo plane. For pax, you can't justify cutting the big whole into the air with that bump. Rather use a fuselage with one deck, that is flatter, or use two decks with the upper deck going all the way to the tail.



Quoting Sparkingwave (Reply 4):

That is a ridiculous statement, for Boeing has been "justifying" cutting the air with that bump for almost 40 years, and with more 747s than Airbus could shake a stick at.



Quoting AT502B (Reply 11):

That "bump" you mention is actually what helps make the B747 THE fastest commercial airliner at the moment.

Obviously everyone's beaten Thorben into the ground with his lack of understanding of aerodynamics, but here is a link with some helpful information. Don't worry if you're wary of Wikipedia...it's got lots of authoritative links at the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_rule
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zvezda
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Radelow (Reply 16):
If you are going to make a statement like that at least back it up with facts.

If you're going to quote someone, at least get the attribution right. I didn't write that. Thorben did.
 
legoguy
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
We had to fly very fast on one leg because we left nearly 2 hours late but only had 45 minutes of leeway on arrival to meet a hard curfew at SYD. We made it with 6 minutes to spare,

Now that the Concorde has been retired, the Jumbo is the fastest airliner.

Is the 747 the fastest large commercial jet due to its high sweep angled wings when compared to other boeing and airbus aircraft?
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NicolasRubio
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:27 am

It is the shape of the past, the shape of the present, and the shape of the future... It will always be an icon... Think about ads or people who are ignorant when comes to aviation, you say "airplane" and they immediately think "Jumbo, 747, two floors"...

Cheers,
Nicolas Rubio

EDIT: Long live the 747!

[Edited 2006-12-09 19:27:59]
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flydreamliner
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 26):
Is the 747 the fastest large commercial jet due to its high sweep angled wings when compared to other boeing and airbus aircraft?

That's not the entire story, but it is a solid contributing factor to 747s high speeds. The wing was made with such a high angle of sweep actually to decrease wingspan without losing wing area, because of concerns about getting it into gates at many airports. Anyhow, this thing only seems to get faster with time.

Keep in mind a Tu-154's wing has even more sweep yet, and it is not faster... it's a complex issue.
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Aviator27
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Does this mean the 747 will be the premier choice for upper class passengers? 550 on a A380 is going to be tight compared to 400 on a 747?

LH said they were putting around 470 into the 850 seat A380 and 400 into a 467 seat B748i. I think you will have more area/seat on the A380. Plus the B748 still sports the lovely 17.2 inch wide seats. I suppose the truth will be seen when both airplanes are actually in service. Still, some people refuse to accept the A320 is less cramped than B737.

If someone wants to throw in usuable floor space to make a valid comparion, it would be awesome.
 
Max Q
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:05 am

The 747's wing was a compromise between the wishes of Juan Trippe, who wanted it to cruise even faster (.90 Mach or more) and Boeings desire to give the aircraft good runway performance and reasonable fuel economy which would have been much harder to do with the angle of sweep Pan Ams Boss wanted, 45 Degrees!

The final result still resulted in an excellent cruising speed, economy and runway operation. It had nothing to do with keeping the wing span minimized for gate considerations.
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glideslope
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
The 747's wing was a compromise between the wishes of Juan Trippe, who wanted it to cruise even faster (.90 Mach or more) and Boeings desire to give the aircraft good runway performance and reasonable fuel economy which would have been much harder to do with the angle of sweep Pan Ams Boss wanted, 45 Degrees!The final result still resulted in an excellent cruising speed, economy and runway operation. It had nothing to do with keeping the wing span minimized for gate considerations.

...and that was the original design. The 748 has a completely new wing that is as all Boeing designs are (764 excluded) the most efficient in the world.  highfive 
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ikramerica
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 7):
Does this mean the 747 will be the premier choice for upper class passengers? 550 on a A380 is going to be tight compared to 400 on a 747?

I think Randy got it wrong, or it's a typo.

LH will put 500 pax on the A388, not 550. Randy's point was that for A380 customers, Airbus left a gaping hole of 200 seats between the A346 and A388 that the 748i can fill. And for customers who don't need a 500 seat jet, the 748i works as a good top end model.

Which has been the point of many of us here for a long while, the reason we don't think the A380 will sell enough units to be worth it, financially.
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Rj111
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 31):
The 748 has a completely new wing

Erm... no it doesn't.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 31):
is as all Boeing designs are (764 excluded) the most efficient in the world

At what? You really need a context.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
The 767 seems to go through lots of variation as it climbs, not losing total pressure and I'm sure remaining within tolerances

I've noticed this too, in particular on the -300 models. The -200's are a little better, and the -400's are not bad at all.
Good goes around!
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
The 747's wing was a compromise between the wishes of Juan Trippe, who wanted it to cruise even faster (.90 Mach or more) and Boeings desire to give the aircraft good runway performance and reasonable fuel economy which would have been much harder to do with the angle of sweep Pan Ams Boss wanted, 45 Degrees!

The final result still resulted in an excellent cruising speed, economy and runway operation. It had nothing to do with keeping the wing span minimized for gate considerations.

It looks like the 748I has quite a bit more sweep than it use to. Check out the video

http://www.newairplane.com/747/

Notice the increase in wing sweep...it's significant.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 37):
Notice the increase in wing sweep...it's significant.

Do you mean the swept wing tip?

It's very similar to the one on the 764 and 772LR/3ER.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
justloveplanes
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 38):
Do you mean the swept wing tip?

I was actually referring to the main sweep angle of the wing. It may be a dramatization on the video to emphasize the wing redesign. It looks a lot sleeker than the 744 on the before and after on the video. I think I"ll look into it, should be on the website somewhere....
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 39):
It looks a lot sleeker than the 744 on the before and after on the video. I think I"ll look into it, should be on the website somewhere....

I don't think the basic wing sweep has changed.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 29):
LH said they were putting around 470 into the 850 seat A380 and 400 into a 467 seat B748i. I think you will have more area/seat on the A380.

IIRC, LH is ordering the crown-space galley option in the 748I, which makes the nominal Boeing 3-class config for the 748I 479. So 400 out of 479 (84%) and 470 out of 555 (85%) are pretty close and proportional configs.

The A380 passengers will indeed have almost an inch more seat cushion spacy in Y and a bit more "airspace" around them. But the cost of that is 10% more empty weight per seat.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
A350
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 41):
IRC, LH is ordering the crown-space galley option in the 748I

Did they also order lavatories on the first floor, compensating for the A340-600 lavatories in the cave?

A350
 
AvObserver
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 33):
Is this Randy Sleeping Beauty or what?

Couldn?t stop laughing when he wrote "747 is the shape of the future"!!!

747 has been around for nearly 40 years, it has been streched, shrinked etc.

He better smell the coffee when SQ takes off with A388, but he never ever admit that Airbus has the technology of the 21st century (VLA)...

You don't post with quite the venom of disresprct Thorben does but you are both quite clueless at not recognizing that the 747-8 is hardly the same airplane as the original 747-121 of nearly 40 years ago. In a myriad of ways, the 747 has evolved in structure, technology and efficiency since the early days. The basic design remains but what's wrong with that when it was such an exceptional one to begin with? Nearly 40 years of improvements have made a great airplane even greater and have kept it competitive. It's YOU who's not smelling the coffee by not seeing there's a place for both the 747-8 and A380. Lufthansa DOES get it. To claim two planes of different size are competing directly is silly, though they are indirect competitors in some competitions. You must be so apalled and disgusted that a new 747 variant would win any sales with the A380 around, abject bitterness overides your objectivity. The 747 ISN'T obsolete as Airbus and its lackeys claim and will win some number of pax-model orders as well as cream the A380F in the freighter wars. And as long as the 747-8 is built, it will be the shape of the future, even though that shape is largely rooted in the past. It's graceful silhouette is timeless.
 
aviateur
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:00 am

"Most architects who design skyscrapers focus on two aesthetic problems," explains the architecture critic Paul Goldberger in a recent issue of The New Yorker. "How to meet the ground and how to meet the sky -- the top and the bottom, in other words." By thinking of a jetliner as a horizontal skyscraper, we understand that its beauty is gained or lost chiefly through the sculpting of the nose and tail.

The plane eventually fashioned by Boeing was the iconic 747. It's perhaps telling that today, strictly from memory, with the aid only of a pencil and a lifetime of watching airplanes, I am able to sketch both the fore and aft sections of the 747 with a startling degree of accuracy. Even for a talentless illustrator like myself, the sweeps and angles of the nose and empennage are drawn almost effortlessly. Looking at the finished product -- or at a real 747 out on the tarmac -- one notices an organic flow to the jet's silhouette. For all its square-footage and power, the 747 maintains a graceful, understated elegance.

The 747's vertical stabilizer rises to greater than 60 feet -- half or so the height of many airport control towers. Though essentially a six-story aluminum billboard, there's something sexy in the fin's cant -- like the angled foresail of a schooner. Up front, it's hard to look at a 747 without focusing on the plane's most famous feature -- its sloping, second-story penthouse deck. The 747 is often, and rather unfairly, derided as "bubble-topped" or "humpbacked." In truth, while providing the plane with its most recognizable feature, the upper-deck annex is softly and smoothly integral to the main fuselage, tapering forward -- the cockpit windscreens anthropomorphizing as eyebrows -- to a stately and confident prow. All together, the plane looks less like an airliner than it does an ocean liner. "A gentleman's airplane," as one captain puts it. Or, putting it another way, it looks like what it is: an impeccable piece of high industrial art.....>>>

The rest of this article is here:

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2005/12/02/askthepilot164/
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
jfk777
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:12 am

The Edsel of the skies is the A340, another great airplane which Boeing will make for decades is the 777. The 777 and its junior partner the 787 will keep Boeing in the front for point to point flight on international routes. The 777 will be looked back on the way the 747 is today. It has done and will do, with new versions, yet unfilled missions with longer flight.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Radelow (Reply 16):
That is why it is STILL the fastest flying commercial jet in history (excluding the Concorde of course).

Actually this honor belongs to the Convair 990, however among aircraft that are still flying today this is quite true!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
ikramerica
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 36):
I've noticed this too, in particular on the -300 models

And that's what QF flies...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
thebry
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 33):
Is this Randy Sleeping Beauty or what?

Couldn´t stop laughing when he wrote "747 is the shape of the future"!!!

747 has been around for nearly 40 years, it has been streched, shrinked etc.

He better smell the coffee when SQ takes off with A388, but he never ever admit that Airbus has the technology of the 21st century (VLA)...

Many have said it in this forum, and I'm inclined to agree -- there is nothing noteworthy about the silhouette of the A380, but the silhouette of the 747 is unmistakable. It's definitely a part of pop culture... design... and, Lufthansa along with many cargo operators have recently demonstrated, it will be for the foreseeable future. I think that's what Randy was getting at. The 747's "shape" will endure. If the public sees an A380 silhouette (with no reference to scale), it could very easily be mistaken for an A318/19/20/21, or any other Airbus plane. The key here is not having reference to scale. If the A380 silhouette appears in SCALE with other Airbus aircraft, there'll be no mistaking the A380 for another. The 747, by contrast, will never be confused with a 737, 757, 767, 777 or even 787. It's shape is truly unique.

Aviateur captures this perfectly by referencing a salon.com article. It's a good read, and underscores my opinion nicely.

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 44):
The rest of this article is here:

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/...t164/
 
Thorben
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
Obviously everyone's beaten Thorben into the ground with his lack of understanding of aerodynamics, but here is a link with some helpful information. Don't worry if you're wary of Wikipedia...it's got lots of authoritative links at the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_rule

Your article doesn't mention the hunchback.

Besides, aerodynamics of the 747 and other planes like the 777 or A340 are like those of a cyclist sitting upright and one having the chin on the steering. You should find out what makes you faster.

And what do 747 sales have to do with that? It had a monopoly.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 48):
It's definitely a part of pop culture... design... and, Lufthansa along with many cargo operators have recently demonstrated, it will be for the foreseeable future. I think that's what Randy was getting at. The 747's "shape" will endure. If the public sees an A380 silhouette (with no reference to scale), it could very easily be mistaken for an A318/19/20/21, or any other Airbus plane.

Honestly, this post is quite excessive. Of course the 747 is part of yours and my pop culture, we are of its age, but what of the new generation? Will time stand still for the 747? What like it did for the Constellation? or the 707? Absolutely not! It will be the 380 that the new generation will regard as the greatest big plane of their time. Of all time............?
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: Randy's Blog: 747 Is The "Shape Of The Future"

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 49):
Your article doesn't mention the hunchback.

Read it again Thorben...

Quote:
One interesting outcome of the area rule is the current shaping of the Boeing 747's upper deck. The aircraft was originally designed to carry standard cargo containers in a two-wide, two-high stack on the main deck, which was considered a serious accident risk for the pilots if they were located in a cockpit at the front of the aircraft. They were instead moved above the deck in a small "pod", which was deliberately designed to be as small as possible given normal streamlining principles. It was later realized that the drag could be reduced much more by lengthening the pod, using it to reduce wave drag offsetting the tail surface's contribution. The new design was introduced on the 747-300, improving its cruise speed and lowering drag.


[Edited 2006-12-10 23:27:48]