bakestar
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Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:58 am

Yes i know it's not really big news, however quite interesting news.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,20867,20906906-1702,00.html

Will be replacing ships to get from Australia to Casey Station in Antarctica.
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louA340
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:06 am

Thats quite interesting. Can the aircraft take such cruel weather in the Antarctic though? I'm presuming it wont spend that much time parked there and definitely not do an overnight stay.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:08 am

Probably an LR version, so that if it arrives down below and weather has turned ugly, it can still make it back with fuel. Or tankering.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:15 am

My question is can it land with enough fuel to make it back?? As well as how are they going to make the runway? Ice? I know DHC-6s and such can take the ice, but an A319 with enough fuel to fly back 4 hours, will certanly need a nice smooth long strech of ice.
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antares
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:27 pm

There is some detailed info if you google for 'Sir Hubert Wilkins blue ice runway'.

It already exists, is 400 metres by 4000 metres and strong enough to take anything with wheels in what passes for summer daylight conditions.

The tender papers and related stuff in recent years has emphasised that there will be no refuelling of the flights from Hobart, you arrive, turn around and depart, or loiter for only a matter of minutes if the weather turns ugly and go straight back to base.
 
Asturias
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:54 pm

I am impressed. I hope I can get there one day. Through France I suppose.. or the EU. Lucky Australians to get their private A319 to fly them there!  Smile

Great news for Antarctic research.

This could change situations like the ones described here http://www.bigdeadplace.com/index.html

cheers

Asturias
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Halophila
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:25 pm

My goodness this is wonderful news. No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!! A welcome relief. My friends have travelled on the USAF starlifters and said they're really uncomfortable for an 8 hour flight. What a step up!
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N328KF
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Halophila (Reply 6):
. No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!!

No matter what the benefits of the A319, you can't attach skis to it like you can the C-130. Sorry, but there are times when it will not do this job.  Wink
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
antares
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:24 pm

In fact the Australians are using skiis where they are needed, on small CASA turbo-props, but following the US lead at McMurdo which is to move to graded hard ice operations at least in part as the C-130s disappear and the modifications to large capacity jets to give them skiis like the superb C-17 are at least so far considered of insufficient merit.

The tractor road to the South Pole base from McMurdo will remove the base lift factor of ski-equipped turbo props from the supply line equations, and the new high altitude bases at Dome C are apparently destined to be served by tractor trains.

I'm not sure what the future holds for larger ski-equipped transports in Antarctica, although you would have to think there will remain some niche missions.

As I understand it the Wilkins runway will in due course see flights by the likes of IL-76s and 747Fs as the pace of expansion by India and China in bases within a few hours flight of the 'hub' generates demand for air cargo that can be broken up and moved on in smaller flights.
 
DJ748
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:08 pm

I heard about this on the daily news tonight (Monday night). The A319 is going to be setup in all business class setup. Apparently it is setup that way to give the researchers a more comfortable flight.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting LouA340 (Reply 1):
Thats quite interesting. Can the aircraft take such cruel weather in the Antarctic though? I'm presuming it wont spend that much time parked there and definitely not do an overnight stay.

It definitely won't make an "overnight stay". A night on Atarctica lasts several months (all winter) depending on latitude.

Such cruel weather...? Right now it is summer, midnight sun and everything. The weather can be really nice. At least those flights will be piece of cake compared to ordinary commercial winter operation in Greenland and Northern Canada/Alaska.

When the Air Greenland A330 stays overnight these days at Kangerlussuaq, Greenland (which happens all the time) then it is a much more cruel treatment of that plane.

The impressive thing is entirely that they managed to produce a good runway. Since that has been done, then it is only to go and hire any airliner which has the range to make it both ways without being fueled.

The A319 will probably suffer some severe payload restrictions on those flights. Really long range planes will most likely suffer the same since they will have to observe max landing weight including fuel for the return flight. Long range planes always have a max landing weight which is a lot smaller than max take-off weight.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
EI321
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:02 am

 
Viscount724
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Halophila (Reply 6):
My goodness this is wonderful news. No more C-141's and Hercs down south for aussie researchers!! A welcome relief. My friends have travelled on the USAF starlifters and said they're really uncomfortable for an 8 hour flight. What a step up!

The last USAF C-141 Starlifter was retired on May 6, 2006. Interesting item below re the C-141's last mission to Antarctica and related history of that operation.

http://www.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012428
 
A342
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:57 am

Will the new base be considered an ETOPS alternate ? I mean, how are the flights supposed to be legal ? But correct me if I'm wrong.


Another thing: How can you land on bare ice ? That is damn slippery !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Halophila
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting DJ748 (Reply 9):
Apparently it is setup that way to give the researchers a more comfortable flight.

To be fair, the demand for passengers/researchers to the Antarctic falls well short of a fully economy load. I doubt the A319 will have AVOD/beverage service/lie-flat seats. Though as a researcher myself, who never gets to travel J anywhere - have to say that would be sweet  Smile!
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YVRLTN
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:55 pm

Excuse me if im being dense, but where is the aircraft coming from? The article says the federal government is leasing it - so will this be from a leasing company such as ILFC or will it be from someone like Privatair or Twinjet? Im presuming its an ACJ, but suppose an LR version would do the job - do any airlines apart from AF have the LR version? Next question, if from ILFC for example, will it be new build?

Didnt the RAAF just take delivery of some BBJ's?? Why not use one of them or get an extra one instead of add an ACJ too, or were the BBJ's AWACS type aircraft for completely different missions (i remember they had a unique name beginning with W...)?
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antares
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:08 pm

Floor and hold space containers are going to be rolled out onto the ice in a fast turn procedure. You couldn't do this in a VIP configured jet and the below decks arrangement on a 737 is not as efficient as on an A320.

It is reasonable to predict too that the demand on the Wilkins strip will see much larger jets than A319s being required for some missions. This is a 4000 metre runway able to take anything with wheels, with cold dense air that is ideal for efficient takeoff performance. I would have thought the RAAF C-17s may fly at least one or two heavy duty sorties per season as activity grows.

There is a fair bit of detail on the 'net. Google it.
 
n757kw
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
And to rub salt into the wound, these days, "Boeing" C-130s are used in Antartica, along perhaps with "Boeing" C-17s.

I think you still call Lockheed C-130s, Lockheed C-130s. Lockheed still is making I think the J model at the Marietta plant here in Georgia.

N757KW
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Revelation
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:41 am

Oops you are right! I always mix that one up,
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PA110
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 10):
When the Air Greenland A330 stays overnight these days at Kangerlussuaq, Greenland (which happens all the time) then it is a much more cruel treatment of that plane

A bit off the subject, but GL's A330 aircraft and crew are based in CPH, not SFJ. GL781 departs CPH 0915, arriving SFJ 0955, then turns around and returns back to CPH as GL782 departing SFJ 1110 arriving CPH 1930. There is no overnight for the A330 in SFJ unless under exceptional circumstances. GL's 757 and A330 crews are based in CPH, and both the 757 and A330 are based in CPH.

And now back to the topic at hand...
An A319 or any other low wing aircraft is certainly an unusual choice for Antarctica. I would have though the chances of ingesting Ice and Snow would be far greater than for the high wing aircraft currently operating down there. But then again, I'm not an expert, so I will gladly defer t those with more knowledge on the subject.  scratchchin 
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antares
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:04 am

PA110,

I'm not an expert on this either, just enthralled by the history of the exploration of Antarctica.

But my understanding is that a blue ice runway, which you will it find as being described as cut to the ice with the surface replenished with crushed granules of ice or snow pressed over the surface with heavy rollers and graders is the way it has been done since the phasing out of the heavy ski-equipped age began some time ago. So the issue of engine placement is no more challenging than any deep wintry airport like those of Alaska, the Canadian far north or maybe even Minneapolis. As long as the runway is clear.

I'd love to fly there, but everything I've read so far says this will be only used for supply missions.

Antares
 
DJ748
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Halophila (Reply 16):
I doubt the A319 will have AVOD/beverage service/lie-flat seats

From what I would be understanding from my limited knowledge on the topic, the seating arrangement would be more like what would be found on OzJet compared to what you would find on international flights with the large commercial carriers.
 
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zeke
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 4):
The tender papers and related stuff in recent years has emphasised that there will be no refuelling of the flights from Hobart, you arrive, turn around and depart, or loiter for only a matter of minutes if the weather turns ugly and go straight back to base.

Same for the Falcon 900ER that they were previously going to use.

Quoting Antares (Reply 8):
As I understand it the Wilkins runway will in due course see flights by the likes of IL-76s and 747Fs as the pace of expansion by India and China in bases within a few hours flight of the 'hub' generates demand for air cargo that can be broken up and moved on in smaller flights.

I doubt that, they dont really have the range with a good payload for a return trip without a refuel. A 777F/A330F would be much better.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 10):
The A319 will probably suffer some severe payload restrictions on those flights. Really long range planes will most likely suffer the same since they will have to observe max landing weight including fuel for the return flight. Long range planes always have a max landing weight which is a lot smaller than max take-off weight.

The MLW can be increased easy enough by paying some $$ to airbus.

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Will the new base be considered an ETOPS alternate ? I mean, how are the flights supposed to be legal ? But correct me if I'm wrong.

ETOPS is an interesting issue ....



Cannot be made by with ETOPS.

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):

Another thing: How can you land on bare ice ? That is damn slippery !

My understanding is it will be compacted snow ontop of blue ice, the landing distance would be 1600m with medium brakes, 1940 with low brakes, on ice the landing distance would be about 3100m.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
Excuse me if im being dense, but where is the aircraft coming from? The article says the federal government is leasing it - so will this be from a leasing company such as ILFC or will it be from someone like Privatair or Twinjet? Im presuming its an ACJ, but suppose an LR version would do the job - do any airlines apart from AF have the LR version? Next question, if from ILFC for example, will it be new build?

Seen a Qatar A319-100LR before, AF, Comlux, China Sonangol International, Druk Air - Royal Bhutan Airlines, Eurofly, and Aero Services Executive have LRs.

Do Privatair or Twinjet have the LR, or are they just CJs.

I guess the aircraft maybe SN 2801 which is a A319-115(LR) which is currently an unidentified order.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
No matter what the benefits of the A319, you can't attach skis to it like you can the C-130. Sorry, but there are times when it will not do this job.

Agreed.

I think a dedicated C130 would be better off because of its proven anartic capabilities. Congrats to Airbus on this one. I guess this is an important milestone for them.

MCOflyer
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N328KF
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
Cannot be made by with ETOPS.

As a government flight, it is free to ignore ETOPS.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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zeke
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 24):
As a government flight, it is free to ignore ETOPS
To the best of my knowledge it will be operated by Skytraders a non-goverment air operator certificate holder, which is not the government.

The are currently trying to hire the following person

Quote:
Mandatory requirements:

* Experience working with CFM 56 equipped A320 series (or similar) aircraft operating in an ETOPS environment is a pre-requisite for this role.
* minimum of 5 years experience in Engineering Management of Transport Category aircraft is required.
* The applicant must be acceptable to the CASA as a Maintenance Controller for Transport Category Aircraft.
* Extensive knowledge of the Australian Civil Aviation Regulations applicable to Transport Category Aircraft Operations and Maintenance.

Highly Desirable skills

* Applicants who have already been approved by CASA as a Maintenance Controller for Transport Category aircraft operating in an ETOPS environment.
* Experience with aircraft reliability programs for ETOPS operations on A320 aircraft.
* Applicants with previous experience working with the A320 in a regulatory capacity in either aircraft certification or Airworthiness.
* Applications with previous experience in the preparation and maintenance of Maintenance Control Manuals, Engineering Procedures Manuals, Operators Minimum Equipment Lists, Systems of Maintenance and other engineering documentation.
* Experience with introduction of new type or model aircraft onto the Australian Civil Register.
* Experience in the management of major aircraft modification projects on Transport Category Aircraft.
* Experience in the certification of major modifications by STC, in compliance with TSO requirements.
* Experience in budgetary control of an engineering department for all maintenance costs including wages, subcontractor charges, line maintenance, heavy maintenance and major modifications.
* Knowledge of the Auditor Generals requirements and procedures for procurement of goods and services for Government Departments and contractors.
* Experience in preparation of monthly progress reports, budget reports, business plans and project plans.
* Experience in negotiation of contracts with suppliers for supply of services for line maintenance, heavy maintenance, component maintenance and aircraft modifications.
* Experience in presentation of project plans or business cases to clients to justify expenditure.
* Experience in obtaining training approvals for Group 20 type ratings and management of Approved Maintenance Training Organisations.
* Experience utilizing the Microsoft Office suite of products including Outlook, Word, Excel, Access and Project.
* Previous experience working in a line maintenance environment holding current Australian licences with Group 20 Airframe on the A320 and CFM-56 engine ratings.
* In addition to the above qualifications applicants must be team players who must possess good communication and literacy skills.

Coastwatch in Australia is also a non-goverment air operator certificate holder, which has to meet all the normal rules, like Coastwatch (which operate F406 and DHC8 outside normal ETOPS rules). They will have to apply for an exemption.

A charter/lease of a civil registered aircraft to the government does not turn that aircraft into a state aircraft.

[Edited 2006-12-20 18:50:08]
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magyar
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:34 am

Sorry for my ignorace (in case I am wrong), but is it not the first pseudo-regular flight with a (pseudo-) commercial plane to Antartica?
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
A bit off the subject, but GL's A330 aircraft and crew are based in CPH, not SFJ. GL781 departs CPH 0915, arriving SFJ 0955, then turns around and returns back to CPH as GL782 departing SFJ 1110 arriving CPH 1930. There is no overnight for the A330 in SFJ unless under exceptional circumstances.

That's right PA110.

But when talking winter ops in Greenland, and when maybe exagerating a little bit, then there is nothing but "exceptional circumstances" in Greenland.

When I was younger (and we are not talking "centuries ago", only the days before widespread internet) then we always got the message on the radio news when the plane would arrive from Greenland. Now we get the same info on the net, of course.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
I think a dedicated C130 would be better off because of its proven anartic capabilities. Congrats to Airbus on this one. I guess this is an important milestone for them.

That's really not an issue. All Airbus and Boeing types operate on a regular basis year around to places like Spitzbergen (Svalbard), Greenland, Northern Canada and Alaska. Summer flights to Antarctica are far less demanding weather wise.

The only special thing about these flights is that with such an unrefueled roundtrip they are really stretching the A319 range to the limit.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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N328KF
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
To the best of my knowledge it will be operated by Skytraders a non-goverment air operator certificate holder, which is not the government.

Yes, but if CASA (the Aussie aviation authority) wished to grant a waiver in this decidedly abnormal instance, they could.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 27):
The only special thing about these flights is that with such an unrefueled roundtrip they are really stretching the A319 range to the limit.

You mean this a quick turn around when it lands in Antarctica.

MCOflyer
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Gemuser
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RE: Antarctic Researchers To Get A319

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
To the best of my knowledge it will be operated by Skytraders a non-goverment air operator certificate holder, which is not the government.

Not what I hear! Be intresting to see how it pans out.

Gemuser
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