zschocheimages
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Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:49 pm

I find it quite interesting that neither AF nor KL fly into DFW. That is strange to me. What would be the reason for this? What makes it more interesting is that AA is having trouble with winning support for the proposed DFW - Asia route. Is there just not much of an international market in North Texas? Comment away.
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MAH4546
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting ZschocheImages (Thread starter):
I find it quite interesting that neither AF nor KL fly into DFW. That is strange to me. What would be the reason for this?

There are a few reasons, the main ones being that American Airlines dominates the market and that Houston is that far, and has a larger international market. Air France flew to Dallas back in 2001. While the events of 9/11 didn't help, it was a weak performer from the start, even though Dallas was a SkyTeam hub back then.

Quoting ZschocheImages (Thread starter):
What makes it more interesting is that AA is having trouble with winning support for the proposed DFW - Asia route. Is there just not much of an international market in North Texas? Comment away.

They didn't have trouble at all, sans winning support from their own pilots. Many people had them as the favourite to win.
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iluv747400
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:52 pm

Edited - misread DFW for DTW. Sorry.

[Edited 2006-12-12 04:53:51]
 
AirCop
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:54 pm

Perhaps no skyteam members at DFW for feed. Perhaps Houston is a more international business location than Dallas evidenced by the service offered by AF, KL, CI, PK all which serve IAH and not DFW.

[Edited 2006-12-12 04:55:52]
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:55 pm

One word - oneworld - AA dominates DFW in a way that NW domnates DTW and MSP.
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zschocheimages
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:00 pm

But continental dominates IAH and still there are quite a few international airlines.
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drerx7
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting ZschocheImages (Reply 5):
But continental dominates IAH and still there are quite a few international airlines.

I think that Houston just happens to have the larger business market, that and a connection flight to Dallas is only 250miles away. KLM and Air France can slap a Skyteam codeshare on a million flights to Dallas.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
AA737-823
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:30 pm

Air France has flown here in the past with smaller A330-200s... apparently, it didn't work out.

It didn't help when Delta shut down last January.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting ZschocheImages (Reply 5):
But continental dominates IAH and still there are quite a few international airlines.

Indeed, however from my perspective, CO comes nowhere close to aggressively protecting it's turf at IAH as AA does with DFW. At the moment, CO has for locked up Latin America for the most part from IAH and few new Latin carriers are willing to come in and challenge CO's dominance. Once the 787s begin showing up, I suspect that CO will begin to become much more aggressive in terms of int'l dominance similar to what we are seeing with AA at DFW. If this indeed the case and CO does not become UA (I am praying that this will not happen) the next few years might be the best and last chance for IAH to see an onslaught of new foreign metal, i.e. the long rumored.. KE, EK, AI, QR, ect....

As an aside, this coming Sept, KLM will celebrate 50 years at Houston .

Thomas

[Edited 2006-12-12 08:41:29]
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
jcs17
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):

The flights were operated by 343 equipment. They were never operated with A330s.

I wouldn't be shocked if AF re-started or KL started service to DFW (I've been saying this for a long time though). LH is currently the only airline that can offer seamless one-stop connections to medium-sized and small cities in Europe, let alone Africa and the Middle East. I believe DFW is by far the biggest market where this actually occurs.
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AA777223
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Jcs17 (Reply 9):
LH is currently the only airline that can offer seamless one-stop connections to medium-sized and small cities in Europe,

What about BA? They fly to DFW, and connect to countless cities across EU and the rest of the globe. They fly 777s to DFW and they have the advantage of being a OneWorld partner, although you can't earn AAdvantage miles on trans Atlantic flights, due to a non-compete rule.
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JayDavis
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:14 am

Yes, BA has a good service to/from DFW to London, but it is to London GATWICK !! Not Heathrow, which is where the LARGE bank of flights to Africa and the Middle East depart from. Want to connect from LGW to LHR ????
I sure wouldn't. What a hassle.

I would love to see AF or KL come into DFW. Anything that provides more service options other than AA would be a good thing.

Competition IS a good thing, even if others on this board don't seem to believe it. I noticed in last week's Dallas Morning News that Southwest has already increased its loads out of DAL due to the Wright Amendment going away and it also increased AA's loads as well. So all the people who were crying that the sky would fall when the WA went away are DEAD WRONG !!  Smile
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 3):
Perhaps no skyteam members at DFW for feed. Perhaps Houston is a more international business location than Dallas evidenced by the service offered by AF, KL, CI, PK all which serve IAH and not DFW.

No, IAH has different international traffic than DFW. DFW does have BA, LH, KE, and AC. DFW does much more international cargo than IAH does with LH, SQ, KE, AF, CI, Southern Air, Atlas, EVA, UPS and some others.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Air France has flown here in the past with smaller A330-200s

The A-330 was usually a replacement aircraft (as LH does sometimes). AF normally flew in an A-340-300. DL was their ground handling agent.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 10):
What about BA? They fly to DFW, and connect to countless cities across EU and the rest of the globe. They fly 777s to DFW and they have the advantage of being a OneWorld partner, although you can't earn AAdvantage miles on trans Atlantic flights, due to a non-compete rule.

Yes, BA does fly a B-777-200ER into DFW, from Gatwick, and they normally hook up with AA, for passengers continuing on to other destinations
 
paneuropean
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:49 am

Though AF- KL doesn't fly to DFW it would be more logical AA starting service to AMS, a market whom they have never flown to. AA is the only american carrier without flights to AMS. Seems that both carriers are afraid of the competition. AA is saver in Brussels I guess.
 
commavia
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:06 am

AF-KLM doesn't fly to D/FW for several reasons:

1) There's just no market for more flights from North Texas to Paris, and almost nonexistent demand for nonstop flights from North Texas to Amsterdam

2) American already flies on the D/FW-Paris route and has the market basically locked up with their daily 767 flight

3) Between American, BA and Lufthansa, D/FW has about all the European flying it needs and/or can support for the time being

Long-term, I could potentially see Air France once again giving D/FW a try with maybe a daily A330 from Paris -- but I don't see it even becoming possible, let alone likely, for at least another 5-10 years, until the Metroplex economy develops and globalizes further. AMS is, in my opinion, completely out of the question beyond maybe, just maybe, a daily AA 767 DFW-AMS that even if concievable is, again, years off.
 
suske
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:21 am

The oil industry is the reason why KLM fly to Houston instead of DFW. And I might be mistaken but I don't think KLM can fill a 330 or a 777 enough to guarantee flights to DFW. Oddly enough this is a route, due to the oil, that had KLM wondering how to have more business class seats. They were always sold out. It eventually came in the form of private air, not a second widebody.
 
777FlyGuy
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
No, IAH has different international traffic than DFW. DFW does have BA, LH, KE, and AC

A.net rumor has it KE is dropping DFW in favor of IAH and Skyteam connections via CO in 2007.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting 777FlyGuy (Reply 16):

A.net rumor has it KE is dropping DFW in favor of IAH and Skyteam connections via CO in 2007.

While Korean Air has announced that Houston is likely their next destination, nothing has been said about ending Dallas.

Lee also revealed that Korean is looking at adding Houston to its network next year. It currently serves 13 destinations in North America. No decision has been made, but he said Houston-based SkyTeam partner Continental Airlines would "welcome Korean Air." After Houston, Miami is likely to be the next US city added to its network, he said.
http://www.fly2houston.com/0/25615/0/1906D1934/
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AA777223
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
2) American already flies on the D/FW-Paris route and has the market basically locked up with their daily 767 flight

I'm surprised by this. I have made that flight many a time and it always seemed to be full. I was usually in the Biz cabin, and that may be the problem, they face. Too many premium passengers, not enough Y. It surprises me to think that they lack demand. It is unfortunate that they downgraded the route from a Triple to the 767, but if the demand is not there, Lord knows they certainly need the 777s on other routes.
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commavia
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 18):
I have made that flight many a time and it always seemed to be full.

They want to keep it that way. With another airline in the market, both companies would see lighter loads, and thus render both airlines' flights unprofitable. One airline + one flight = healthy yields + heavy loads = happy AA.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 18):
that may be the problem, they face. Too many premium passengers, not enough Y.

I think that's a "problem" that just about any airline on earth would love to have!  Smile

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 18):
It is unfortunate that they downgraded the route from a Triple to the 767, but if the demand is not there, Lord knows they certainly need the 777s on other routes.

There were rumors back about 18-24 months ago that AA was thinking of upgrading 48/49 DFW-CDG-DFW and 44/45 JFK-CDG-JFK to 777s because of extra demand from both premium passengers and for huge cargo volume, but nothing came of it as AA needed the 777s more desperately elsewhere. In my opinion, while DFW-CDG may not be the most premium route in the world, it probably could support a 3-class 777, at least in the summers, but I certainly can see why AA has allocated 777 capacity to other markets first.
 
777FlyGuy
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
While Korean Air has announced that Houston is likely their next destination, nothing has been said about ending Dallas.

I didn't say KE made an announcement. I said the a.net rumor mill. We all know what that is worth.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:51 am

Let's not forget, DFW flirted with other carriers in the recent past.......


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Sadly, Sabena is no longer with us. If memory serves, Sabena quit DFW just days before ceasing operations.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:18 am

I think that more than likely we will have to AA for these routes. KL and AF wont come because DFW is not a Skyteam hub. I think IB would be most likely to come to DFW because of the OneWorld. I think that its only a matter of time before we see DFW-BRU on AA. I think its nuts that DFW doesnt have nonstop on any airline to AMS.
It is what it is...
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):
I think that more than likely we will have to AA for these routes. KL and AF wont come because DFW is not a Skyteam hub. I think IB would be most likely to come to DFW because of the OneWorld. I think that its only a matter of time before we see DFW-BRU on AA. I think its nuts that DFW doesnt have nonstop on any airline to AMS.

1. AA tried DFW-MAD years ago, lets just say that the route did not work out very well and AA quickly pulled the service, flying DFW-MIA-MAD instead. With the more difficult rules now in place for non-US pax who stop in the US in transit, the route would have even more problems (pax from Central America would have little interest in the flight). If AA tried it again, I think that they would have more success in keeping the airplane filled, but yeilds could be a big problem.

2. Both AA and SN tried the DFW-BRU route.....both times it was a financial disaster. When AA did it in the early 1990s (was in 1992 or 1993?) with a 762ER, AA flew the route for less than a year with very very empty airplanes....seriously, load factors where in the 15-35% range. Then SN flew the route in the late 1990s for a couple of years until SN sadly closed down (SN got stuck with all of the A332s that they really did not need due to SR, SN had to fly them somewhere....and flying to AA's megahub seemed like a good enough idea....AA and SN worked together). SN kept the seats on the BRU-DFW flight reasonably filled, but with lots and lots of very low fare and very low yeilding pax travelling between Europe and LAX/SFO/LAS and making connections in BRU and DFW. Not exactly a good way to make money.

3. As for AA opening a DFW-AMS route, again I do not see it happening.....AA/OneWorld has vitually no feed or connections at AMS and AMS is a lower yeilding destination than other European capitals such as London, Paris and Frankfurt.

--------

Due to AA's dominant position at DFW, they can basically do what they want with little fear that other airlines (including foriegn carriers that are not OneWorld members) will offer serious competition. We could see AF or KL (re) opening a DFW route.....but that would hardly impact AA as a huge portion of the pax on those airplanes would likely be going to/from points beyond CDG/AMS (think India, Gulf, MidEast, Africa, etc). When AA gets into an expansion mood, I believe that ORD or possibly JFK will gain more flights to Europe and DFW will continue to sit with its current offerings.
 
777FlyGuy
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:57 am

DFW has been a virtual graveyard for international airlines over the years. JM, TG, NZ, JL, SN, AF, CP, AM. Granted some went out of business. But when you're going up against an 800 pound gorillAA, I guess it's to be expected.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
3. As for AA opening a DFW-AMS route, again I do not see it happening.....AA/OneWorld has vitually no feed or connections at AMS and AMS is a lower yeilding destination than other European capitals such as London, Paris and Frankfurt.

 checkmark ...AA let BA handle AMS....BA have 6x737 daily LGW-AMS flights..

...DFW-LGW-AMS...at least LGW isn't as bad as LHR.. no ...
"Up the Irons!"
 
BOAC911
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
3) Between American, BA and Lufthansa, D/FW has about all the European flying it needs and/or can support for the time being

For once, try to think out of the box. AA is lonelier and lonelier in Frankfurt, and some how they also make they're two daily rotations work. Why couldn't the likes of KL or AF do so in DFW?
 
Glareskin
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 3):
Perhaps no skyteam members at DFW for feed. Perhaps Houston is a more international business location than Dallas evidenced by the service offered by AF, KL, CI, PK all which serve IAH and not DFW

I guess next to the short distance to the economically more important city of Houston, the relatively weak position of One World is the reason. AF, KL can feed the Skyteam partners not only from IAH but from all DL, CO and NW hubs. Star Alliance can feed Dallas from all UA, US, AC hubs.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
commavia
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 26):
Why couldn't the likes of KL or AF do so in DFW?

First off, the point I made -- which I presume you were responding too, although I'm not sure -- was not "in the box." It was merely a statement of reality.

The reason why AA can make a DFW-FRA flight work, alongside Lufthansa, is because it is a larger market, Lufthansa offers enormous amounts of interline connections and, most importantly, DFW is an enormous hub (the world's second largest) that feeds ridiculous amounts of traffic into the FRA flight, just like every other flight. The same can not be said for Air France at CDG or KLM at AMS. Both are very sizeable hubs, but neither even begins to approach the volume of traffic AA puts through DFW, which is why AA can support a transatlantic spoke from its hub while AF/KL would not be able to make DFW work as a spoke from their respective European hubs on the other side of the pond ... for now, at least. Ten, fifteen years from now, maybe even only five, as North Texas continues to expand like crazy, more companies continue to move there, and the region globalizes even further, then maybe it will be possible. But not now.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Why No AF-KLM To DFW?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:28 pm

I have to admit that it confuses me sometimes. DL makes all of these obscure European routes work from ATL. Granted its a larger airport and has a little more feed, DFW has a larger local market than ATL. Hell there are more people living in the DFW area then there are in the Houston area, yet ATL and IAH recieve so much more international traffic. Houston is argueable because they are the medical and Oil hub of that part of the country. I guess ATL is almost all connecting and not so much O&D.
It is what it is...