Dougloid
Topic Author
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Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:56 am

If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting from the certification:

Production Basis

A380 airplanes, all series and models, are produced in France under production approval FR.21G.0035 issued by DGAC or
produced in Germany under production approval DE.21G.0009 issued by LBA to Airbus.

Is that production approval? IE the Production Certification everyone is now harrping on about in other A380 threads?
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 1):
Quoting from the certification:

Production Basis

A380 airplanes, all series and models, are produced in France under production approval FR.21G.0035 issued by DGAC or
produced in Germany under production approval DE.21G.0009 issued by LBA to Airbus.


Is that production approval? IE the Production Certification everyone is now harrping on about in other A380 threads?

No, this is the approval of the respective factories to produce Part 25 airplanes.

The airplane production certificate comes separately
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
pygmalion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:42 am

The TC states MTOW 560 metric tons which is what Airbus always stated was MTOW... If they haven't done a MTOW RTO... are they limited to a different MTOW in the AFM or??? this is odd to say the least. How are they certified if they haven't done the cert test at MTOW.

I cant imagine they allowed it by analysis. Anyone know if there are operating limitations pending the full RTO test? No individual aircraft has an AC as yet... AFAIK

Thanks
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:57 am

Quote:
Product Subtype: Large Airplane

A bit of an understatement!
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
jasond
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:33 am

I have never actually seen one of these but the one thing that stood out was the maximum eligible passenger capacity:

Maximum Passenger Seating Capacity
The maximum eligible passenger seating capacity is 538 on the main deck and 315 on the upper deck for a total of 853.

Interesting that nominally Airbus have always quoted 555 and airlines are in fact going for less to begin with. The certificate indicates approval to carry so many more, correct?
 
pygmalion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:12 am

Its based only on the demonstrated evacuation test. They got 853 out in the time limit so they could carry 853. So its a maximum that Airbus could allow for but that number may not have any relevance in the real world.
 
bill142
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Jasond (Reply 5):
Maximum Passenger Seating Capacity
The maximum eligible passenger seating capacity is 538 on the main deck and 315 on the upper deck for a total of 853.

Interesting that nominally Airbus have always quoted 555 and airlines are in fact going for less to begin with. The certificate indicates approval to carry so many more, correct?

853 is a single class config. 555 is a three class config, typical of standard operations
 
jumboforever
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:47 am

Quote:
Airplane Flight Manual Refer to A380-841 and A380-842 US Airplane Flight Manuals, Revision 0.3, Issue 1, both dated December 7, 2006, applicable to A380-841 and A380-842 airplanes.

This is something I'd like to read.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 8):
Quote:
Airplane Flight Manual Refer to A380-841 and A380-842 US Airplane Flight Manuals, Revision 0.3, Issue 1, both dated December 7, 2006, applicable to A380-841 and A380-842 airplanes.

This is something I'd like to read.

Me also!!!

Looking thru the TCDS in the Maximum Weights table it gives three sets of weights, for variant "000Basic" "001" & "002". Can anyone see where that is defined in the sheet or does anyone know what they refer to??? Because the differances are very large, eg MTOW is 560,000kg (000Basic), 510,000kg (001) and 569,000kg (001), 59tonnes between 001 and 002!!!

Gemuser
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jasond
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 7):
853 is a single class config. 555 is a three class config, typical of standard operations

Thanks

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 6):
Its based only on the demonstrated evacuation test. They got 853 out in the time limit so they could carry 853. So its a maximum that Airbus could allow for but that number may not have any relevance in the real world.

Still 800+ in a single high density config might appeal to some operators. Didn't the Japanese pioneer that sort of thing with 747SR's (short range / high density). That's a lot of people to put on an aircraft!!
 
pygmalion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:27 pm

they got over 1000 on a 747 flight, a -200 I think. It wasn't really legal but hey its been done.

Airbus can now plot out a seating layout for up to 853 pax without doing a new evac test. They would still need to cert for layout, aisle widths, head strike zones etc. but that can be shown by demonstration and analysis with out a new test program. Good fer them.
 
jasond
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 11):
they got over 1000 on a 747 flight, a -200 I think. It wasn't really legal but hey its been done.

Are there any Japanese customers for the A380? Given their history all the concerns of moving large numbers of people through airports with the A380 shouldn't worry them. They should be experts at it by now.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:20 pm

There appear to be 5 fuel tanks in each wing, but none in the fuselage? Is there a figure anywhere showing the location of fuel tanks?

SailorOrion
 
slz396
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 13):
There appear to be 5 fuel tanks in each wing, but none in the fuselage? Is there a figure anywhere showing the location of fuel tanks?

That is correct, at present there are no fuselage fuel tanks located in the belly yet, however there is room for an additional centre fuel tank in the belly of the plane that will be installed for the A380F and also for the A380-900...
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:35 pm

Any fuel tanks in the center wing box then?

SailorOrion
 
brendows
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 15):
Any fuel tanks in the center wing box then?

A center tank in the wing box is optional for the A380F, increasing the fuel capacity to 355850 litres (an addition of 45850 litres,) but none of the cargo operators have ordered this option as far as I know.
 
WINGS
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):

That is correct, at present there are no fuselage fuel tanks located in the belly yet, however there is room for an additional centre fuel tank in the belly of the plane that will be installed for the A380F and also for the A380-900...

Would you happen to know if the A380-800R (extended range) will also feature this additional centre tank?

I would imagine that as soon as the A388 program gets back on track, the A388R would be the next model to be introduced.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:52 pm

Quote from text:

Weather Capabilities
The Model A380-800 is qualified to Cat. 1.

What exactly does THAT mean? ILS CAT I is default and CATII/III needs aircraft/operator/airmen certification?

SailorOrion
 
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autothrust
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:38 pm

They just are doing autoland tests with MSN02 in Africa. They probably will get CATII/III soon.


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Cant wait to see the RTO test, it sure must be very spectatcular.
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N1120A
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 7):
555 is a three class config, typical of standard operations

That isn't typical, it is inflated based on 1970's/1980's configurations. The real number is 480-520

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 11):
they got over 1000 on a 747 flight, a -200 I think. It wasn't really legal but hey its been done.

It was legal in that it was an airlift to safety in an extreme emergency.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 9):
Looking thru the TCDS in the Maximum Weights table it gives three sets of weights, for variant "000Basic" "001" & "002". Can anyone see where that is defined in the sheet or does anyone know what they refer to??? Because the differances are very large, eg MTOW is 560,000kg (000Basic), 510,000kg (001) and 569,000kg (001),

This is the first reference I have seen to a 569 tonne MTOW for the A388. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If this is indeed a new MTOW, there is an implication that Airbus is making up for a payload-range short fall caused by:

- MEW above target
or
- Fuel Mileage below target
or
- A combination of the two

If it is none of the above and the airplane has hit it's performance targets, then Airbus should be revising the range capability of the airplane as an MTOW increase of this magnitude should yield a range improvement of at least 300 - 350 nm.

Other good questions relate to how this increased MTOW and the attendant increases in MLW and MZFW were achieved, given the structural test failure.

Was the failure caused because the test was being done to the higher MTOW with Airbus knowing that a 560 tonne MTOW was not sufficient to satisfy customer guarantees?

Did the subsequent structural modification allow the 569 tonne MTOW?

If the structural mod did not allow the 569 tonne MTOW, is it achieved by an operational restriction such as a reduction in the forward CG limit?

Of course, if Airbus does increase the published design range, then the 569 tonne MTOW can be explained by all testing being so successful that Airbus merely decided to certify the increased MTOW to provide a more capable airplane to their customers if they opt to take the higher weight version.

It's great to have more concrete data as provided by the TCDS since it does allow alternate paths for speculation as to the status of the A380 Program.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Stitch
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
Would you happen to know if the A380-800R (extended range) will also feature this additional centre tank?

Wouldn't that be pretty much required for the "R" model?  Confused
 
A342
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
Would you happen to know if the A380-800R (extended range) will also feature this additional centre tank?

Sure it would.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:25 am

Heard they certified at the Stage 3/Chapter 3 maximums as under Chapter 4 requirements they did not get Heathrow QC2 and are rushing a noise reduction package through and will have better noise levels when they do a final noise test before first delivery.
 
ncelhr
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 16):
A center tank in the wing box is optional for the A380F, increasing the fuel capacity to 355850 litres (an addition of 45850 litres,) but none of the cargo operators have ordered this option as far as I know.

I would hate to be the guy who has to take his Credit Card out to fill it up.


Quoting Dougloid (Thread starter):
Hot off the press. Happy reading.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...8E2A886257242006079C4?OpenDocument

Funny how when you download the PDF & check its properties, it is based on a Dornier 328 document...

[Edited 2006-12-13 21:59:17]
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Aeroman444 (Reply 27):
Heard they certified at the Stage 3/Chapter 3 maximums as under Chapter 4 requirements they did not get Heathrow QC2 and are rushing a noise reduction package through and will have better noise levels when they do a final noise test before first delivery.

From Rolls Royce:

Quote:

The Trent 900 also meets Heathrow's QC2 noise level thus being significantly quieter than today’s largest passenger aircraft.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40338
 
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Revelation
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 16):
A center tank in the wing box is optional for the A380F, increasing the fuel capacity to 355850 litres (an addition of 45850 litres,) but none of the cargo operators have ordered this option as far as I know.

Excuse me, but these days, it should be operator, not operators...
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A342
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
Excuse me, but these days, it should be operator, not operators...

Excuse me, but until 2009 (?), it should be future operator.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:06 am

RichardPrice - that article was written way before the fianl flight test for noise. They got Stage 4/Chapter 4, but did not achieve noise levels low enough for QC2, hence the reason for them rushing a hushkit through.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Aeroman444 (Reply 32):
RichardPrice - that article was written way before the fianl flight test for noise. They got Stage 4/Chapter 4, but did not achieve noise levels low enough for QC2, hence the reason for them rushing a hushkit through.

And with all due respect, Ive heard nothing of this - everything I have heard, both on and off the record at Airbus and RR, has both the Trent and GP7200 engined A380s easily QC2 complaint.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:29 am

RichardPrice - I was at FAA this morning and when I asked if the A380 had noise levels that met QC2 at Heathrow the response I got back was "not yet".

FAA legal sent out a message to all certification offices that they were not to reveal the A380 noise levels as they have been deemed as potentially damaging to Airbus. I think they are buying them time to rush the noise reduction package through and recertify and not end up with a lot of embarrassment and egg on their face.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Aeroman444 (Reply 34):
FAA legal sent out a message to all certification offices that they were not to reveal the A380 noise levels as they have been deemed as potentially damaging to Airbus.

Again, with all due respect, thats ... rubbish (not quite what I was going to write there, but I want to give this post a chance at least).

Why would the FAA give a rats ass about Airbuses PR problems? If a problems a problem then its a problem regardless, the FAA wouldnt have an issue with talking about it.

The wing breaking before certification level was 'potentially damaging' to Airbus, and yet that was all over the news almost instantly, with no legal challenges there. Why would the FAA get all legally afraid over a potential noise issue now?

Anyway, if the FAA are handing out legal blocks to their offices, its nice to know that they will still hand out that information to someone who will happily post it on a.net at the first opportunity.

Quote:

Aircraft noise certification testing is due to be completed during the summer. Development flight test noise data indicates the engine will easily meet the stringent QC1 and QC2 limits in use at airports including London Heathrow – one of the A380’s early destinations for SIA.

Rolls-Royce Trent 900 clocks up 6,000 flying hours on the A380 -
17 July 2006


What, did they suddenly push the 'make more noise' button and fail QC2 at the last moment? 6,000 hours of data behind them, they put out a press release indicating no problems with noise, indeed the very opposite, and suddenly they have a problem?

Every indication has it that your 'information' is plain wrong.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:07 am

It's not rubbish.

Find me one, just one, of their PR releases that SPECIFICALLY state they have noise levels low enough to count as QC2. They all say they meet stringent noise rules at Heathrow but so what so does a 747-200.

If you do not believe me call the FAA and try to get the noise levels. Call Guy Readmen at EASA. Won't get them there either. They are also not on the ICAO noiseDB website like every other aircraft with certified noise levels.

FAA legal did send out the letter. I assume it was due to Airbus firing the silver bullet in washington and getting them to keep them secret.

Noise levels are considered public information. Yet you can't get anyone that has them to tell you what they are. One begins to think that somebody has something to hide.

My FAA contact stated that several customers have tried to get the noise levels to confirm status but won't until the hold is taken off.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Aeroman444 (Reply 36):
Find me one, just one, of their PR releases that SPECIFICALLY state they have noise levels low enough to count as QC2. They all say they meet stringent noise rules at Heathrow but so what so does a 747-200.

Uhm, see my last post, it has RR stating exactly that. QC2 is also known as 'Quota Count band 2' at Heathrow, thats why they all state it.

Im sorry, but your information holds no weight in light of all the other information in the public domain at this time.

If Im wrong, you will get an apology, but Im pretty sure Im not wrong. Why would the FAA bend to Airbuses 'silver bullet'? Thats the thing that makes the least sense here.

Oh, and just because its not in the 'noise db' (which I found, and it really is an appallingly bad website) doenst mean anything, especially considering the database was last updated in October 2006.

[Edited 2006-12-14 23:36:22]
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:44 am

Im not saying its noise certified yet, but I am saying that all indications point to no problems getting the required noise levels. The aircrafts quiet, enough so that its immediately noticeable to a bystander.

Also the implication that the FAA is getting involved on the legal side holds no water because theres no reason why they should.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 am

Rolls said that betting that their static engine noise levels would be good enough. After the flight test, they found out they are not is what I am thinking.

With all the bad press they have been getting you would think they would be touting successful QC2 noise levels but they are not. They are making it look like it when in reality thier press releases evade actually claiming it.

Answer me this, if all other noise levels are considered public domain then why wont the FAA and EASA give them to anyone?

Historically, noise levels have been added to noiseDB immediately after certification so airports and others can make projections.

If it were public that they do not have as low of noise levels as they promissed, SQ and others will run not walk away from their contracts. Thats why its secret. The customers won't wait for them to hushkit the airplane.
 
A342
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:58 pm

May I ask, how many DB below chapter 3 is QC2 ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
aeroman444
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RE: Link To A380 Type Certificate Data Sheet

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:06 am

its not margin to stage 3. you add takeoff and sideline noise levels and the divide by two. or for approach it the noise level minus 9 dB.