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rogerbcn
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BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:40 pm

Hola!

As it appeared in the news today, Dec. 12th 2006,

http://www.lavanguardia.es/gen/20061...na-aeropuertos-espanyoles-sas.html

Star Alliance is planning to turn BCN into its south Europe hub providing they are assigned a favored position at the new terminal opening in 2008.

With IB moving most of its hub operations to MAD and reducing BCN flights to a minimum, losing about 20% of its passegnger share at the airport. IB started the new low-cost airline Clickair to fly to destinations previously served by them but said to be non-profitable. I always doubted how serving MUC or TXL directly could be non-profitable when flights were always full.

I personally think it is a good move to have such a big alliance at BCN airport which is becoming in the last years a LCC hub (please no offense here!).

The final decision will be taken by AENA, Spanish-state owned airport services-operator (the only of its kind in Europe) which turns it into a more political decision than anything else. IMO, airports should go into private hands to make them more efficient and more business oriented.

Salut!  wave 
"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
 
ualcsr
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:57 pm

I know we're short on aircraft, but I would love to see UA return to Spain via IAD-BCN.

How is JK's connectivity in BCN? I went to their route map and it looks about equal to MAD for domestic service, although it looks like JK has a little more international traffic from MAD.
 
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rogerbcn
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:13 pm

Hola Ualcsr,

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 1):
How is JK's connectivity in BCN?

As far as I know JK is planning to increase its operations from BCN if finally turning it into Star Alliance hub, both international and domestic and so becoming first operator at the airport

Salut!
"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
 
trinxat
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Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:51 pm

Excellent news, and long-awaited. It would have been a lost chance for JK if they had not profited from the questionable IB pull-out from BCN.

In the end it will be better for us all, at the same time it shows that there is a market for intercontinental flights to/from BCN as the IB move is a mere political one.

It is amazing that the only intercontinental connections that BCN has at present are operated by foreign companies (Continental, DL, SQ, USair) and the only spanish one is NM (and soon probably UX again).
IB, the legacy spanish carrier, is not. Does this happen anywhere else?

I have regularly flown IB flights over the past years to LHR, MUC, BRU, AMS just to give some examples and occupancy always ranged from 60%-100%.
I can't understand how IB states that "BCN flights are not profitable". While some might not be, clearly others are very much. Or do they want us to believe that absolutely all flights from MAD are profitable-since they are not planning to replace any flight over there with clickair AFAIK?

Just as an example, yesterday evening flight BRU-BCN at 19.10 operated by an A320 seemed (from my point of view looking at the people in the gate) about as busy as the MAD one (operated by an A321) about to depart 15 minutes later on a neighbouring gate

IB and AENA have always been so politically and hypocritically (mis)guided and directed following centralist Madrid interests over mere business ones that I wonder how they can still make money. If they want to save money they should streamline their bureaucratic organisation first - inherited from their previous state-owned period (pilots reported once that IB has more middle managers than pilots itself)

Their only intention is to boost MAD and its brand new T4 to the expense of all others, whatever it takes.

For this reason, I expect a lot of hurdles to JK plans from AENA on the new slot allocation in BCN. You know, it's like the "perro del hortelano.."
 
Fermarta
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
at the same time it shows that there is a market for intercontinental flights to/from BCN as the IB move is a mere political one.

According to "El Periodico" the only new long-haul flights announced are to Amman, Kuwait, Dubai, Bangkok and Riyadh. Hardly a boom.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
It is amazing that the only intercontinental connections that BCN has at present are operated by foreign companies (Continental, DL, SQ, USair) and the only spanish one is NM (and soon probably UX again).

Do you really believe that Spanair is going to fly to the US and Latin America from BCN?

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
I can't understand how IB states that "BCN flights are not profitable".

Iberia states "Some BCN flights are not profitable". Flight full does not equal flight profitable. For example, with all the Bolivian people living in Spain don't you think that Iberia could fill one, two or three planes with them? Of course, but do it profitably I don't think so.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
Just as an example, yesterday evening flight BRU-BCN at 19.10 operated by an A320 seemed (from my point of view looking at the people in the gate) about as busy as the MAD one (operated by an A321) about to depart 15 minutes later on a neighbouring gate

Wrong example. Why is the Madrid flight more profitable? Because most of the passengers flying to MAD connect to one of the long-haul flights leaving at midnight.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
I wonder how they can still make money.

Just check the traffic data published by Iberia yesterday and you will see where and how Iberia makes money.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
Their only intention is to boost MAD and its brand new T4 to the expense of all others, whatever it takes.

Here you are absolutely right.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
For this reason, I expect a lot of hurdles to JK plans from AENA on the new slot allocation in BCN

So, if AENA gives Oneworld Madrid T4 is political but if it gives Star Barcelona South Terminal it makes perfect business sense. Is this what you are saying?
Otros vendrán que bueno te harán
 
airbazar
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:04 am

I don't buy it. I see it as not more than wishful thinking on the part of the airport authority, especially when it's sandwiched in between 2 already existing Star hubs (MUC and LIS). How many Star Alliance carriers would move their operations to BCN, or develop BCN as a true hub in addition to their home hubs? TP, no way. LH, no way. OS, no way. BMI, please. You need a dominant carrier in order for it to be a hub. Spanair is not a dominant carrier in any way shape or form.

I suspect there was something lost in translation. Maybe what they really meant to say is that BCN may become a Star Alliance focus city for intra-Europe flights. But even that is a streach especially when LCC are offereing point-to-point flights. I really don't see Star developing any meaningful intercontinetal flights out of BCN, that's for sure.
 
trinxat
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 4):
Because most of the passengers flying to MAD connect to one of the long-haul flights leaving at midnight.

Well these people were most businessmen with hand luggage trolleys, but maybe you are right and they were heading for some beach time in Cancun

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 4):
So, if AENA gives Oneworld Madrid T4 is political but if it gives Star Barcelona South Terminal it makes perfect business sense. Is this what you are saying?

I didn't say that. AENA is free to give T4 to IB if they want, in spite JK allegations. In compensation, BCN south terminal could be given to JK. But both decisions will be of the same kind, either political or business-based, as JK plan is to be the biggest operator out from BCN (as IB is currently in MAD).

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 5):
Maybe what they really meant to say is that BCN may become a Star Alliance focus city for intra-Europe flights.

That is right. The point here is that there are some Star alliance longhaul flights from BCN already, operated by USair and SQ, that will use the Spanair hub for intra-european destinations. And maybe thanks to better facilities in BCN they can atract too TG and Varig (if they ever resume operations) that currently serve MAD. But nobody expects JK to build a longhaul network from BCN.

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 4):
Iberia states "Some BCN flights are not profitable".

Well, IB plans are to drop all destinations from BCN except "puente aéreo".

My point on this is that since IB wants to concentrate their activity in MAD, they seem to need an excuse to retreat from BCN, and saying that "flights are not profitable" seems a bit ridiculous and hypocritical as we frequent travelers notice. Taking this to an extreme, someone could also ask them to be so pennywise on all other destinations they operate (from MAD and everywhere else).

Further, if someone (even their own LCC) is willing to take over the slots they leave behind, is maybe because there is a market isn't it? Or because they are insane? Maybe the reason is that those routes are not profitable "for them", given their strategy.

If IB had said: we need to maximise T4 in MAD and we retreat from BCN because we want to focus our activities there. Fine. No issue. They are a private and sovereign company and can do whatever they want. But please, allow fair competition where they do not want to operate, and don't treat people as if they were dumb.
 
Fermarta
Posts: 202
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Euro

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
but maybe you are right and they were heading for some beach time in Cancun

Iberia does not fly to Cancun, it is not profitable.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
I didn't say that. AENA is free to give T4 to IB if they want

Yes, you did.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):

IB and AENA have always been so politically and hypocritically (mis)guided and directed following centralist Madrid interests over mere business ones

Here you are saying that all Aena decisions affecting Iberia are political, not business based.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
as JK plan is to be the biggest operator out from BCN

That's also clickair plan.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
use the Spanair hub for intra-european destinations

What destinations in Europe does JK serve? Only hubs of other carriers of Star
Alliance, ZRH, FRA, VIE, AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC, ARN, CPH. Singapore Airlines flies to most of those cities directly and they are better located than BCN to serve Europe. Airbazar (reply 5) lo ha "clavao".

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
Well, IB plans are to drop all destinations from BCN except "puente aéreo".

No. Iberia will still fly from BCN to LHR, ORY, FCO, MIL and BRU.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
Taking this to an extreme, someone could also ask them to be so pennywise on all other destinations they operate (from MAD and everywhere else).

AGP-LHR already dropped. SVQ-LHR, SVQ-BIO, VLC-LHR next in line.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
Further, if someone (even their own LCC) is willing to take over the slots they leave behind, is maybe because there is a market isn't it? Or because they are insane? Maybe the reason is that those routes are not profitable "for them", given their strategy.

That's exactly the reason, but not because of IB's strategy, but because of its cost structure. Of course there is a market but you have to compete with LCCs at its prices and with your cost structure. Iberia routes from/to BCN are point-to-point operations. Flights from/to MAD are point-to point AND feeder flights to the network. That's the difference.

Anyway, allow me some rephrasing: "Further, if someone is willing to fly from Spain to China, is maybe because there is a market isn't it? Or because they are insane? maybe the reason is that flying to China is not profitable "for them", given their strategy." Ask Air Europa or Air Plus who was insane.
Otros vendrán que bueno te harán
 
trinxat
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 7):
Iberia does not fly to Cancun, it is not profitable.

OK you never seem to have enough  Smile I will ask them next time: "hey men, what beach destination are you heading to dressed in such a way?"

In the end, this example is really enforcing my statement: if IB flight to MAD, even being a longhaul feeder, is not busier than the humble point-to-point BCN flight, and on top of that it has a bigger aircraft, which one was more profitable on that evening?

And don't tell me now that it was the MAD flight because their passengers buy more inflight food and duty-free...

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 7):
Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
I didn't say that. AENA is free to give T4 to IB if they want

Yes, you did.

????? mmmm where?

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 7):
No. Iberia will still fly from BCN to LHR, ORY, FCO, MIL and BRU.

AMS and MUC are not profitable either ??

Quoting Fermarta (Reply 7):
AGP-LHR already dropped. SVQ-LHR, SVQ-BIO, VLC-LHR next in line.

OK, so most flights from BCN and a couple from Seville and Valencia are the black holes of IB. Everything else is good money. I can't buy that, sorry.

Maybe you could ask your employer for a comparative chart of revenue per destination, and post it here. This would be interesting and would put some light on this obscure affaire
 
Fermarta
Posts: 202
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RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 8):
hey men, what beach destination are you heading to dressed in such a way?"

Beach destinations? What are you talking about? Every passenger flying to Latin America is going to the beach?
Explain what you mean. All I said is that most passengers flying BRU-MAD connect to a long haul flight and then you start talking about Cancun and beaches. Apparently, businessmen don't fly to Latin America with hand luggage trolleys.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 8):
And don't tell me now that it was the MAD flight because their passengers buy more inflight food and duty-free...

It is not how busy a flight is that makes it more profitable (I tell you again flight full does not equal flight profitable) but what every passenger pays. With only 20-25 passengers in the MAD flight connecting to a long haul flight (and there were more even though they weren't flying with "sombrillas" to the beaches) makes it more profitable.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 8):
AMS and MUC are not profitable either ??

BCN-MUC was dropped almost two years ago.
BCN-AMS will be operated by clickair from March 1st,2007
So it seems that no, they were not profitable.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 8):
mmmm where?

Here.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 3):
IB and AENA have always been so politically and hypocritically (mis)guided and directed following centralist Madrid interests over mere business ones
Otros vendrán que bueno te harán
 
bullpitt
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:07 am

The problem here is with some of those people who don't seem to realize tha MAD is more important than BCN when it comes to business traffic. stirthepot 
MAD is the capital of Spain, it host most mayor embassies and it's the home to many big Spanish corporations. It's also geographically situated in the center of the Iberian peninsula therefore better suited for those flying to any major Spanish city. For example why would someone flying from America go all the way to BCN and then go back to any of the major industrial cities of the north (BIO,LCG,VGO,OVD).

I have said this many times before IB is a private company who is trying to survive in a very competitive industry. If there was money to be maid by flying to BCN from Ulan bator IB would do it. If IB is pulling out of BCN in certain markets it's because they think they will benefit economically from it.

I thing some of the people have this the wrong way around it was before when IB was not private that politics came into it and the company was forced to fly to places it should not have gone to.

JK is free to set hubs where they think it's best but lets not forget that IB makes money and JK looses it. In my opinion a big difference between them.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
trinxat
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:34 pm

This topic is going a bit wild now

Fermarta: your point about the connections from MAD is clear. The only thing I am trying to tell you is that in that specific example, in that day, most of the passengers were business people heading home after a long day in BRU. Just that. No backpacks, no casually dressed couples or groups, that would lead to think they are heading somewhere else in SA. In that day, the MAD flight was less crowded. That's all I mean.

BCN-AMS is always busy. I can't believe it is not profitable either.

Bullpitt: OK MAD is the capital. Well, this does not mean much, is it? There are many big corporations here too in BCN, but no embassies, fine. But BCN as a tourist destination and a cruiser hub is more important than MAD. And according to your view MUC, MXP and many cities in the US would not be entitled to be hubs, isnt' it? Only the capital.... this is a bit 17th century thinking, don't you believe?

Nevertheless it is true that MAD has more traffic than BCN, but it is indeed because what Fermarta says: a hub attracts more traffic, regardless of the place it sits.

And if the distance between BCN and MAD is relevant for people flying in from SA.... why then don't build a hub in SVQ which is then closer to them (we could name it "la compañía de indias aeronauticas")
 
jonty
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:10 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:33 pm

Slightly off the point, can one of the Spaniards help me with something???
in the article it says "Once aerolíneas reclaman a AENA agruparse en la nueva terminal de Barcelona"

since when can you say aerolíneas???
I thaught it was "lineas aéreas" and that aerolineas argentinas was an exception! - at least thats what they tell us at school!

gracias!
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Jonty (Reply 12):
since when can you say aerolíneas???
I thaught it was "lineas aéreas" and that aerolineas argentinas was an exception! - at least thats what they tell us at school!

totally interchangeable terms in Spanish. Aerolineas Argentinas is simply "Argentine Airlines". An airline can be referred to as "una aerolínea" or "una línea aérea".
 
jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 11):
BCN-AMS is always busy. I can't believe it is not profitable either.

This is a myth. Always busy not necessarily means profits. Of course you can fill 100 people paying one-way fare of US$50 for instance and lose money, when the publish fare is $250.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 11):
And if the distance between BCN and MAD is relevant for people flying in from SA.... why then don't build a hub in SVQ which is then closer to them (we could name it "la compañía de indias aeronauticas")

Because SVQ as BCN does not generate enough trafic for a hub as it would compete with the main hub is MAD. A good example of these is AZ who maintains FCO and MIL which comercially is not a good Idea and one of the reasons they loose so much money. Politics should be kept out when it comes to making decisions if you want to have a healthy company.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:26 pm

BCN situation seems to be very similar to Rio. They are strong cities, but they are too much closer to another major city.

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 6):
That is right. The point here is that there are some Star alliance longhaul flights from BCN already, operated by USair and SQ, that will use the Spanair hub for intra-european destinations. And maybe thanks to better facilities in BCN they can atract too TG and Varig (if they ever resume operations) that currently serve MAD. But nobody expects JK to build a longhaul network from BCN.

Varig plans in fact is to resume services to MAD. I really don't believe that they could fly to BCN, even as a leg, because probably will run the route with a single plane.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
mkirch72
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:00 pm

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 11):
But BCN as a tourist destination and a cruiser hub is more important than MAD

Please show me your sources for making this statement.

According to the website of the Ajuntament de Barcelona, in 2004 Madrid had 11.3 million tourists who spent the night and Barcelona had 10 million who spent the night. I believe MAD is the more important tourist destination. Even many cruise passengers will do a Madrid add-on of a couple of days either pre or post cruise.

Source:
http://www.bcn.es/estadistica/angles/dades/anuari/cap13/C1304020.htm

[Edited 2006-12-16 08:22:01]
 
trinxat
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe

Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:56 am

Mkirch72: I will check, but comparing just people staying overnight is not a good indicator. Take all the politicians and official trips on one hand, and people staying overnight just to transfer to a longhaul flight (these are "fake visitors" just generated by being a hub). We are talking about tourists that choose the city to stay and visit it a couple days at least, and this is very difficult to identify.

On top of that the cruiser hub statement needs no back up, I guess.

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