s.p.a.s.
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AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:14 am

I've been listening some rumours both from sources in the US and in Europe that United and Air Canada are seriously thinking about leave Star Alliance, in part due the way the alliance is being managed by Lufthansa.

Anyone heard similar rumours around?

Cheers

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
jimyvr
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:19 am

Big loss for Air Canada and United.

Particularly Air Canada has cut off interline ties with nearly 150 airlines and will only focus on Star Alliance. UNITED has revenue sharing agreement with Lufthansa which partly helped them to survive the ch.11.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
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N328KF
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:26 am

Anyone who has seen the United operation at ORD knows that the two are so integrated here on transatlantic runs that UA would be crazy to leave.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
jacobin777
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting S.p.a.s. (Thread starter):
I've been listening some rumours both from sources in the US and in Europe that United and Air Canada are seriously thinking about leave Star Alliance, in part due the way the alliance is being managed by Lufthansa

Given that not only does LH/UA codeshare but revenue share on North American flights, I doubt one will see UA leave Star Alliance...

I can't say too much about AC...
"Up the Irons!"
 
FutureFO
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:30 am

I call shenanigans on that rumour. There is no way that the 2 founding members will leave.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
MattMSP767
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:31 am

Please don't post 'rumors' unless you have some sort of source to back up your claims referenced within the post.
 
Danny
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting S.p.a.s. (Thread starter):
I've been listening some rumours both from sources in the US and in Europe that United and Air Canada are seriously thinking about leave Star Alliance

Another baseless imagination rumour?
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:35 am

AC also revenue shares on Canada-Germany services with LH.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting S.p.a.s. (Thread starter):
I've been listening some rumours both from sources in the US and in Europe that United and Air Canada are seriously thinking about leave Star Alliance, in part due the way the alliance is being managed by Lufthansa.

Yeah I heard from my uncle's friend's sister's boyfriend's barber's mistress' doctor that AC is leaving and that WS will become the Star member from Canada.  Yeah sure

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
Given that not only does LH/UA codeshare but revenue share on North American flights,

AC and LH have similar revenue sharing agreement.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:37 am

What a ridiculous rumour. Two of the founding airlines leaving? C'mon. Who are your sources? Your sources are out to lunch...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
I can't say too much about AC...

I can, I'm an AC employee. AC revenue shares with LH on transatlantic runs also. Also, AC and UA are practically joined at the hip. The relationship between AC and UA is probably the strongest of any, it was also the first of its kind.

No way in bloody hell would AC and UA (both founding members) leave STAR.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 8):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
Given that not only does LH/UA codeshare but revenue share on North American flights,

AC and LH have similar revenue sharing agreement.



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
I can't say too much about AC...

I can, I'm an AC employee. AC revenue shares with LH on transatlantic runs also. Also, AC and UA are practically joined at the hip. The relationship between AC and UA is probably the strongest of any, it was also the first of its kind.

No way in bloody hell would AC and UA (both founding members) leave STAR.

Thanks for the updates regarding AC... Smile

Guess we got our information then...I dont' see either of the two then leaving Star Alliance...... no 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Clogman
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 9):
I'm an AC employee

Or whatever you wanna call it. You lazy ass bum. ;o)

But to get back on the topic I cant see either why the heck they should leave the strongest alliance.
The chance of SAS leaving is much bigger  Smile Which I hope never happens.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:47 am

Didn't you hear...UA is gonna leave Star and move to SkyTeam when they acquire CO in merger.  box   bouncy   twocents 
 
jimyvr
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 12):
UA is gonna leave Star and move to SkyTeam when they acquire CO in merger.

CO not too amused with Skyteam and may move to Star once merge with UA.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:21 am

AC or UA will never leave Star Alliance in the near future, and i doubt they ever will. Star has done many things for both airlines. I think you should reconsider who you use for your sourses and try better next time.

[Edited 2006-12-13 23:25:40]
Keep the shinny side up!
 
sebring
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:30 am

Strangely enough, I heard a few weeks ago in airlines circles something about AC leaving or being booted out of Star. I asked an AC contact who ran that up the line and was told there is nothing going on, but I have to admit there have been tensions. I don't know where UA fits into this, but AC is both criticized and admired within Star for its totally different pricing structure which it wants to push for all its flights worldwide, and of course LH is also intimately involved in the CRS world, where AC has been a leader in the revolt against high transaction charges and inflexible display capabilities. AC was an investor in the relaunched US, but never structure a code-sharing agreement with it because of its close contractual relationship with UA.

AC has some carriers in Star with whom it has a tenuous relationship - SQ is one. SAA is another.

The question is, would AC, UA and perhaps others bolt Star and set up their own alliance? If CO came with UA, perhaps US, would such a group attract interest from other Star or non-Star members?

I was told that if some carrier wanted to expel AC from Star, all AC would need to defeat that was one vote from a charter member, and that one particular charter member is absolutely, solidly behind AC (UA? LH?)

I'm NOT suggesting this is happening, only that I am curious about how versions of this rumor keep circulating. It is still only a rumor.

[Edited 2006-12-13 23:34:26]

[Edited 2006-12-13 23:37:06]
 
777FlyGuy
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting MattMSP767 (Reply 5):
Please don't post 'rumors' unless you have some sort of source to back up your claims referenced within the post.

Aww, come on. Without rumors, there wouldn't be anything interesting to read on a.net.  Big grin

Agreed it doesn't make much sense for two founding members to leave. However once merger mania dies down and assuming combinations do take place, it will be interesting to see who's left and what alliance they belong to.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
AC has some carriers in Star with whom it has a tenuous relationship - SQ is one. SAA is another.

Niether of which are founding members. SQ always talks big, but in the grand scheme of the STAR alliance they are a marginal member at best, SAA just joined STAR, neither has much clout in saying who can/can't stay in STAR. The real power in STAR is the founders (AC,UA,LH).


Kris
 
threepoint
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
AC has some carriers in Star with whom it has a tenuous relationship - SQ is one. SAA is another.

The beefs with SQ have been well-discussed. What's up their bum re SAA?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:52 am

When is AC going to start working with US? It seems strange that after playing a part in getting US out of bankruptcy and as members of the same alliance that they are doing absolutely nothing together.
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:55 am

There's no chance in H*LL AC and UA leaving Star Alliance. They both invested their money in Alliance. I can't see any of those two leaving.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 19):
When is AC going to start working with US? It seems strange that after playing a part in getting US out of bankruptcy and as members of the same alliance that they are doing absolutely nothing together.

It was purely to make a quick profit take, and then bolt. Nothing more nothing less. With possible mergers, a game of musical chairs in FF Alliances is entirely possible, but I highly doubt you'll see UA or AC leave Star. I would say DL is more likely to leave SkyTeam than the latter two leave Star.  twocents 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
sebring
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 18):
The beefs with SQ have been well-discussed. What's up their bum re SAA?

AC has wanted access to the South African market for years, and Canada has proposed a variety of possibilities to South African government, beginning small and growing with the market. For example, letting AC get in via codesharing on LH. However, the Canadian government has reported zero headway, a reflection, one presumes, of SA's long-standing belief that Canada is unimportant and that AC should deliver it traffic at an existing US gateway (European flight timings don't favor connections) with SA enjoying most of the economic benefit.
 
sebring
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
It was purely to make a quick profit take, and then bolt. Nothing more nothing less. With possible mergers, a game of musical chairs in FF Alliances is entirely possible, but I highly doubt you'll see UA or AC leave Star. I would say DL is more likely to leave SkyTeam than the latter two leave Star.   

It was going to be more, especially in the maintenance area, but that was frustrated by a couple of factors, like US union contracts and the high Canadian dollar which appreciated a further 8 points or so after AC bought into US. And of course, with the strong US share price gain, it became too tempting for ACE to leave that much money on the table.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 22):
However, the Canadian government has reported zero headway

Thanks. I wonder if this may one day be addressed under Blue Sky, and if the African reluctance to participate has been an airline or government stance (or both - I dunno if SA is privately owned or not). One presumes that YYZ would be as attractive to SA as JNB or CPT would be to AC.
Now: can this route be flown non-stop with a 777LR or 346?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ChicagoFlyer
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:22 am

There's no need to bash the original poster. Rumor--so what? It is a lot less implausible than people think.

UA clearly will not leave voluntarily, but--with the merger mania in full swing, you never know if United Airlines will be part of UAL Inc. or other corporate entity... then the whole thing becomes entirely plausible. Of course we can all agree that left to its own devices, UA is not even thinking about leaving.

AC is a very interesting case. It's not a huge airline yet a near-monopolist in a large territory. It probably adds excellent value to Star alliance, especially to UA/US through the easy cross-border feed. It would add an equally good value to AA (and probably even a better one due to fewer Oneworld players in N. America), and AA is probably still thinking about the absorbtion of Canadian into AC.

Being part of an alliance always comes with some give and take. For example, I believe that AC ground handles UA/US in Canada, and receives the same favor in the States in return. Further, AC and other Star airlines use each other's gates. I am willing to bet that Air Canada gets more than it gives in terms of handling/real estate (because the rents are likely to be lower in Canada, and AC likely does not operate as efficiently in terms of turning planes as bankruptcy-scarred UA and US).

So this is a balance--AC probably gives a good value to Star partners in terms of revenue (more or less than it gets from the alliance is not really important), and probably burdens them with more than fair share of cost. Depending on what you want to focus on, you can get really pissed and break the relationship. I think Star carriers really need to tread softly, as AC will easily find another alliance to call home.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 25):
AC likely does not operate as efficiently in terms of turning planes as bankruptcy-scarred UA and US).

I'd be surprised if this were the case, as AC only recently emerged (scarred) from their own bankruptcy period and have certainly focused on the lean approach to doing business.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 24):
Thanks. I wonder if this may one day be addressed under Blue Sky, and if the African reluctance to participate has been an airline or government stance (or both - I dunno if SA is privately owned or not). One presumes that YYZ would be as attractive to SA as JNB or CPT would be to AC.
Now: can this route be flown non-stop with a 777LR or 346?

If I do recall in the AC Horizon clippings I remember in the early 90s or mid 90s AC has the right to fly to South Africa from FRA plus AC has 5th freedom rights from Germany?.. LH was thinking of letting AC run the flight to JNB and CPT from FRA???
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:38 am

Airline Industry Make-Your-Own-Rumor Guide

I heard that:

[ ] United
[ ] American
[ ] Continental
[ ] Pakistan International
[ ] Pan Am Railways
[ ] John McCain
[ ] Rosie O'Donnell

Is planning to:

[ ] merge with
[ ] withdraw from
[ ] codeshare with
[ ] pull out from
[ ] increase service to
[ ] physically assault

The following:

[ ] George W. Bush
[ ] Chicago
[ ] NASCAR
[ ] The Star Alliance
[ ] Visa Rewards
[ ] The Pan Am Cup
[ ] The Liberal Democrats

Because of:

[ ] Market conditions in the Middle East
[ ] A secret deal with McDonnell-Douglas
[ ] The A380 delay
[ ] The recent US elections
[ ] The US Airways-Delta merger
[ ] Funding from Antonov

There you go. At least 1,800 new thread headers right there.  Wink
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
unitednrt
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:40 am

Your sources have it wrong, United is moving as close as it can to Star Alliance as the synergies involved are massive and are crucial to leveraging our worldwide network.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 23):
It was going to be more, especially in the maintenance area, but that was frustrated by a couple of factors, like US union contracts and the high Canadian dollar which appreciated a further 8 points or so after AC bought into US. And of course, with the strong US share price gain, it became too tempting for ACE to leave that much money on the table.

All of them factors I'm sure Bob Milton could see coming, although the gain in the $CAD to the $USD is something that ambushed all trans-49th trade. AC similarly signed a maintenance contract with DL to do the heavy checks on their fleet of 763ERs and 764ERs and neglected to put a currency fluctuation clause in the language and it has been a boon for DL, and AC has been lucky to break even on it if not lose money.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Sabena332
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Airline Industry Make-Your-Own-Rumor Guide

I heard that:

[ ] United
[ ] American
[ ] Continental
[ ] Pakistan International
[ ] Pan Am Railways
[ ] John McCain
[ ] Rosie O'Donnell

Is planning to:

[ ] merge with
[ ] withdraw from
[ ] codeshare with
[ ] pull out from
[ ] increase service to
[ ] physically assault

The following:

[ ] George W. Bush
[ ] Chicago
[ ] NASCAR
[ ] The Star Alliance
[ ] Visa Rewards
[ ] The Pan Am Cup
[ ] The Liberal Democrats

Because of:

[ ] Market conditions in the Middle East
[ ] A secret deal with McDonnell-Douglas
[ ] The A380 delay
[ ] The recent US elections
[ ] The US Airways-Delta merger
[ ] Funding from Antonov

There you go. At least 1,800 new thread headers right there.

This is a friggin' hilarious post, I already laughed for 10 minutes and I think I will continue for a few minutes more. Well done! Big grin

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
cslusarc
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
[ ] Rosie O'Donnell

Is planning to:



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
[ ] physically assault

The following:

[ ] George W. Bush



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Because of:



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
[ ] The recent US elections

Now that's interesting, if not funny.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:35 am

I prefer "John McCain is planning to merge with George W. Bush due to funding from Antonov."
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 167
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:54 am

UA will never leave Star.period. the end.
 
JAL
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:07 am

This is the first time I'm hearing this news!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7068
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 35):
This is the first time I'm hearing this news!

Same here and I bet they do not leave and its all a sack of sh**. I can bleieve recent merger rumors, but this draws the line.

MCOflyer

[Edited 2006-12-14 03:44:13]
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ZRHnerd
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 33):
I prefer "John McCain is planning to merge with George W. Bush due to funding from Antonov."

ahaha, how funny is that Big grin Big grin
 
sebring
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 27):
If I do recall in the AC Horizon clippings I remember in the early 90s or mid 90s AC has the right to fly to South Africa from FRA plus AC has 5th freedom rights from Germany?.. LH was thinking of letting AC run the flight to JNB and CPT from FRA???

Only Canada and South Africa don't have a bilateral.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 24):
Now: can this route be flown non-stop with a 777LR or 346?

The -200LR would work very well on the route. North bound , assuming -35k winds is a still air distance of about 7800nm. Widebody's charts would suggest that the payload should be in the 85000lb range
 
steeler83
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting MattMSP767 (Reply 5):
Please don't post 'rumors' unless you have some sort of source to back up your claims referenced within the post.

Yeah really, or is the purpose of this thread to do nothing more than  stirthepot  spin 

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 13):
Quoting FXramper (Reply 12):
UA is gonna leave Star and move to SkyTeam when they acquire CO in merger.

CO not too amused with Skyteam and may move to Star once merge with UA.

Perfect, some more spin...

That post above about 18 new thread topics, now THAT is something worth laughing at!!! GREAT POST!  bigthumbsup 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
atnight
Posts: 537
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 13):
CO not too amused with Skyteam and may move to Star once merge with UA.

I hear this same rumor all the time, but for some reason, I HAVE YET to find a source to back this up. Could you please share evidence that CO isn't happy in skyteam? (I'm not saying they are, I just want to know where this rumor comes from, and if there is really basis to it)....
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
UAL777UK
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:36 pm

Two words about these guys leaving Star...Absolute rubbish!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:43 pm

This is not even a rumour... this is just wrong...

WILCO737
 airplane 
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7068
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 43):
This is not even a rumour... this is just wrong...

Amen to that WILCO737.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:11 pm

Star Alliance is the only working Alliance at all. One world as example does not work. I had a flight London-Miami-Lima, BA the first part,AA the second. Booked by BA into the AA flight, this was not accepted by AA, they told me and insisted that AA standby passengers have preference to BA long time booked ones. BA officials told us that that happens daily. Things could be cured since BA booked us into a LAN plane to Lima thirty minutes later ( that arrived 15 minutes earlier than AA).

These two leaving Star would be just the end of any alliances - and start the every against every war of hostile takeovers.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:38 pm

I' throw the Bullshit flag on this one too. No way in hell UA and AC will leave * Alliance. If that's the case, VS and BA are starting revenue share on April 1 07.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3923
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:54 pm

It is known that Lufthansa was extremly pissed at some North American carrier(s) when they were in Chapter 11 as they were putting (dumping) a lot of capacity on the North-Atlantic to make up for their (self-inflicted) losses in the USA. This had their direct impact on the bottomline of other Star carriers, not only LH, which had been fighting hard to survive the whole Sep. 11th aftermath without having the chance to go through Chapter 11 to get rid of all legacies.

Does this mean the rumour is true? Might be, even though I think that neither AC nor UA are strong enough to make it alone, or to have the money for an alliance switch, which would likely cost them X00 million USD for no real benefit. And they would all of a sudden lose a drastic number of connection passengers plus their whole global (code-share) networks.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:59 pm

What do they gain by leaving the alliance?
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
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RE: AC/UA Leaving Star Alliance?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
ahaha, how

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

That's freakin hilarious man. My ribs hurt from laughing. LOL
If you are going through hell, keep going.