USAirPlatinum
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US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:52 am

I've seen a ton of US Airways bashing from the Delta fans, and it seems to be the origin of most of the anti-merger sentiment. But as a frequent flyer on both US (and once Delta), I'm hoping the merger doesn't go through.

First of all, if it does go through, those of us who fly US regularly will get swamped with the angry Delta attitude against US Airways and its customers. It never fails, when I meet a Delta employee and mention US, that they fly into a tirade about how much US sucks and how they don't believe it's in business, etc., etc., etc. That ancient rivalry won't go away, and if US gets Delta, it will be facing legions of sullen, angry employees who almost shut down the airline (pilots) and who picketed ticket counters against mergers and reorganizations. Who wants that?

Second of all, contrary to all the Delta fanboy rhetoric, Delta's in bad shape. I live in the UK and in Philadelphia, and in Britain, Delta is notorious for being the carrier from America with the old, dirty planes and the cheap fares. US definitely has a better reputation.

A flight on Delta today is far from fun. Whether it's a jaunt on an old, dirty MD-80, or one of Delta's "domestic" 767s across the Atlantic, it's just a tick above RyanAir. SkyMiles is a joke compared to Dividend Miles -- redeeming miles is difficult, upgrade opportunities are well-nigh impossible, and the SkyTeam network is far less useful for business travelers like myself.

There's all this talk about Delta's "turnaround," but if the $88 million loss posted this month (going into a weak winter with high fuel prices) is a turnaround, I'd hate to see a downturn. Delta's "plan" appears increasingly desperate -- reviving Pan Am's old business model at JFK and hoping that it will work better than it did for Pan Am over the medium term. The RJ experience is part and parcel of flying Delta -- even moreso than US Airways. Connections through Atlanta are hellish when compared with Charlotte.

Meanwhile, Continental across town offers a vastly more convenient airport, better in-flight experience, and better overall product. And JetBlue is going to slaughter Delta's domestic feed from a brand new TWA terminal. Delta's NYC RJ and Domestic 767 "hub" will get slaughtered by both within two years. And calling Terminal 3 at JFK "awful" is an understatement. Rip on Philadelphia all you want, as a connecting facility, it's vastly superior with modern and efficient international facilities.

I could go on and on, but I won't. I think it's pretty clear why US should step back from its bid. Politicians' grandstanding and employee unrest notwithstanding, Delta is a dead man walking -- its employee and fan protestations remind me a bit of what the Pan Am people were saying about Delta in 1990. US Airways has an opportunity to improve its network, update its fleet, and continue its operational profitability improvements while Delta continues to circle the drain.

If Delta has assets that US wants, they should wait a year or so after Delta exits Chapter 11 in 2007 and ends up collapsing back into bankruptcy (and liquidation). They'll get assets on the cheap and hopefully more humble employees.

Meanwhile, I'll keep flying US, and thank US Airways employees for their great service (including through the dark days of 2004) and class act. I truly believe that US is setting the future of network carrier air travel.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
bucky707
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:12 am

you believe what you want to believe. As long as you are against a Delta-USAir merger, that's fine with me.
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:18 am

It's all about Delta eh? Never mind the horrible conditions the industry is in. Since we need mergers, what makes DL so much better than everybody else.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
Alitalia744
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:26 am

is there a point to this thread?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:28 am

Did you read my post?

I don't think, as a US Airways flyer, that glomming Delta's cold corpse onto a now-healthy US would add anything for me as a customer, especially with all the improvements US has made in the past 12 months -- financially, operationally, and in terms of customer service. I think US building its network organically and buying assets in a Delta liquidation in a couple of years would deliver much more value.

I think the chance is pretty high that Delta would be back in bankruptcy court within 24 months if they "go it alone" anyway -- especially since they'll have to almost match or beat Parker's offer in order to do so.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 1):
you believe what you want to believe. As long as you are against a Delta-USAir merger, that's fine with me.

That is such a contradictory statement. First, you're saying that he can believe whatever he wants, and then you say that he HAS to agree with you. How 1984-ish.

For what it's worth, I'd like to see the merger happen, however, I am not holding my breath waiting for the Department of Justice, if not everybody else, to approve of it, and were I in charge of the DoJ, I'd be suing for this merger to not happen under Sherman Antitrust.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
DL787932ER
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:44 am

I recommended deletion. I'm sure you can find an "Av Polls & Prefs" thread to join if you feel the need to emotionally bash your non-preferred carrier with no basis in fact.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
kstateinALB
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:45 am

For me, I'd somewhat like to see the merger happen. It would be an airline which could, in fact, be ready to fight against other future merged airlines. But, it could bring down the service of the airline, or even raise fares in cities. It will be a very interesting few months to see if it happens.
ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
 
bucky707
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 5):
That is such a contradictory statement. First, you're saying that he can believe whatever he wants, and then you say that he HAS to agree with you. How 1984-ish.

where in my post did I say he has to agree with me?
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:53 am

I think US Airways is actually well positioned, and what it needs in terms of coverage (the midwest and Asia), Delta cannot deliver.

Another year or two of competing with a healthy US Airways with new planes in the east, and with a United-Continental entity (as is being discussed apparently) will put Delta under. If US plays its Star Alliance card well, it could end up as the "new Continental" -- a mid-sized carrier with improving service and expanding destinations across the continent and Europe, with some service to Asia.

Right now, all the merger candidates are not appealing. Why not just order some extra 330s (beyond the 20 or so on order) and keep international expansion going, including perhaps a PHL-NRT toehold into Asia?

US Airways is profitable, no need to ruin that (and lots of other things like Dividend Miles) by assuming all of Delta's problems.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
Alitalia744
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:01 am

seems your deepest fear is that you'll lose your status or not be as upgraded as often as a result of DL's SkyMiles program being significantly larger, with a significantly larger population of "Medallion" members.

beyond that, your argument is about as tired and jaded as you are.

best of luck.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AirCop
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 2):
Since we need mergers

Again why do we need these mergers? Sure isn't going to benefit the flyers or employees. In my humble opinion the US/DL and the talk of UA/CO mergers just don't make any sense, overlapping markets, difference in equipment etc.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 8):
where in my post did I say he has to agree with me?



Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 1):
As long as you are against a Delta-USAir merger, that's fine with me.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
COERJ145
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
SkyMiles is a joke compared to Dividend Miles -- redeeming miles is difficult, upgrade opportunities are well-nigh impossible, and the SkyTeam network is far less useful for business travelers like myself.

What US should do is bring back the short-haul 15,000 mile awards for flights under 750 miles like AA and UA have, and eliminate the blackout dates(Skymiles doesn't have any from what I know). Once they do this, I'll be more inclined to fly them.
 
Evan767
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
the angry Delta attitude



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
Delta is notorious for being the carrier from America with the old, dirty planes and the cheap fares



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
US definitely has a better reputation.



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
old, dirty MD-80



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
just a tick above RyanAir



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
upgrade opportunities are well-nigh impossible



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
Philadelphia is vastly superior with modern and efficient international facilities.



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
Delta exits Chapter 11 in 2007 and ends up collapsing back into bankruptcy (and liquidation



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
US Airways employees for their great service

Except for MD-88's being old (how can you say they are dirty if DL has upgraded EVERY single interior to be spotless?), I don't see much truth in ANY of those statements. You're gonna get it. Prepare to be flamed and bashed and flamed some more. Just warnin' ya.

 duck   duck   flamed   flamed 
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:19 am

I myself am a DL Medallion flyer and my godfather is a US pilot. Last night I called him in Pittsburgh to wish him a happy birthday. The one thing we agree on: WE DONT WANT THIS. He is worried about job security for the US employees, the route network remaining intact, etc. Im sure the DL employees worry about the same. I would. Mergers are a no win for the employees. For the sake of US and DL, I hope this merger doesnt happen.
It is what it is...
 
bucky707
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:26 am

so saying its fine with me that you are against the merger is the same as saying you HAVE to agree with me? Interesting.
 
Evan767
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 15):
Im sure the DL employees worry about the same

They certainly do.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:28 am

your deepest fear is that you'll lose your status or not be as upgraded as often as a result of DL's SkyMiles program being significantly larger, with a significantly larger population of "Medallion" members

I'm actually not just thinking about that, since I usually fly internationally (where upgrades don't happen). I just don't relish needing 50,000 miles or more to get domestic coach seats, and I also don't fancy Delta levels of service.

Except for MD-88's being old (how can you say they are dirty if DL has upgraded EVERY single interior to be spotless?), I don't see much truth in ANY of those statements. You're gonna get it. Prepare to be flamed and bashed and flamed some more. Just warnin' ya.

My observations are based on my own experiences. I would think that given all the (unjustified) bashing US gets here on a daily basis, that Delta fans could engage reality with their eyes wide open.  Wink
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 16):
so saying its fine with me that you are against the merger is the same as saying you HAVE to agree with me? Interesting.

No...you're saying that "As long as you are against a Delta-USAir merger, that's fine with me." is basically saying that it is NOT OK if you are FOR a Delta-US Airways merger. If that is not how you meant it, I apologize wholeheartedly.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
steeler83
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 15):
I myself am a DL Medallion flyer and my godfather is a US pilot. Last night I called him in Pittsburgh to wish him a happy birthday. The one thing we agree on: WE DONT WANT THIS. He is worried about job security for the US employees, the route network remaining intact, etc. Im sure the DL employees worry about the same. I would. Mergers are a no win for the employees. For the sake of US and DL, I hope this merger doesnt happen.

I guess I am a bit neutral now with the US/DL merger, or a little towards neutral anyway. A good thing: possible PIT build-up, a few added destinations. The largest domestic airline, better 767/777 aircraft with the 787 on order(?). Some bad things... Suppose Parker isn't true to his word on PIT and actually cuts more mainline flights and puts them in PHL or CVG, leaving PIT more and more of a RJ base, B6 will be kept in check when considering PHL (yes, I would like to see B6 in PHL), the whole situation with employees and pax alike as posted above...

I am still against this merger somewhat because DL has done a LOT in trying to turn a profit again, and I don't want to see management disappear into US. I am happy for what both US and DL have done. US has improved its image considerably, and DL is trying to do the same. US already merged with HP and should complete that before taking on another big fish in the pond.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:38 am

I'm of the opposite mindset. I have serious issue with USAirways (with good reason) and I actually like Delta.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
Evan767
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 20):
aircraft with the 787 on order(?).

Nope. Try an Airbus (Yeah, I said AIRBUS) A350.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 11):
Again why do we need these mergers? Sure isn't going to benefit the flyers or employees. In my humble opinion the US/DL and the talk of UA/CO mergers just don't make any sense, overlapping markets, difference in equipment etc.

There is too much competition. The U.S. does not need 8 major players in this industry. We are NOT that big.

While it may hurt the flyers, it will greatly benefit the employees, especially in the long run. They will be working for stable airlines that are built for the future, not airlines that are built for the next year, like the current airlines.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:41 am

DL has done a LOT in trying to turn a profit again

DL can only turn a meagre profit in the summer months in one of the strongest travel seasons in recent memory. Even NWA managed the same. I don't think it's a viable carrier -- it's as in danger as US Airways was when emerging from its first bankruptcy with high hopes.

US already merged with HP and should complete that before taking on another big fish in the pond.

I agree that US should focus on improving its own operation. It has a lot of opportunities to grow and thrive with its existing network -- for instance, some London flights to PHX and LAS.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
ScottB
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
A flight on Delta today is far from fun. Whether it's a jaunt on an old, dirty MD-80, or one of Delta's "domestic" 767s across the Atlantic, it's just a tick above RyanAir.

Have you been on a Delta MD-88 in the past two years? Every single MD-88 I've been on in the past year has had the new, refreshed interior which I find quite superior to the dirty, ratty 737's which US/HP is flying around. I've also been on one of those "domestic" 767-400's for a flight to Hawaii and found it to again be quite comfortable with modern interiors.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
SkyMiles is a joke compared to Dividend Miles -- redeeming miles is difficult, upgrade opportunities are well-nigh impossible, and the SkyTeam network is far less useful for business travelers like myself.

Really? How are those upgrade opportunities going on the US East 757's with 8, count 'em 8 first class seats? Delta's got 24 or 26 seats up front depending on which type of 757 you get. And if you want to compare redeeming award travel, try to get a seat to Hawaii on US from the 20th to the 23rd of this month. You can't. But you can on Delta.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
The RJ experience is part and parcel of flying Delta -- even moreso than US Airways. Connections through Atlanta are hellish when compared with Charlotte.

Um, no. 15% of Delta's third quarter ASM's were on Delta Connection carriers, while 16% of US Airways' third quarter ASM's were on US Airways Express carriers. I suppose perhaps you are right in that the highly-sought-after-among-business-travelers prop experience is far more likely on US Airways...

And I find it amusing that you choose to entirely gloss over the circle of Hell that is the US Airways operation at Philadelphia... Good luck getting your luggage to travel with you unless you carry it yourself.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
There's all this talk about Delta's "turnaround," but if the $88 million loss posted this month (going into a weak winter with high fuel prices) is a turnaround, I'd hate to see a downturn.

Well, let's review. Delta posted third quarter operating income of $168 million. US Airways posted third quarter operating income of $16 million. Where's the much vaunted "among the highest profits in the industry?" In October, Delta reported passenger RASM up by 12.4%, whule US Airways reported passenger RASM up "over 10%." Delta reduced mainline CASM in October by 4.6%. US Airways' mainline CASM was up year-over-year in the 3rd quarter.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
Delta's "plan" appears increasingly desperate -- reviving Pan Am's old business model at JFK and hoping that it will work better than it did for Pan Am over the medium term.

So we should be looking for the 747's in Delta's colors soon? And it's not even clear that the European routes were the problem for Pan Am, as much as a well-deserved reputation for poor to mediocre service, a very weak domestic network, the disastrous merger with National, etc.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
And JetBlue is going to slaughter Delta's domestic feed from a brand new TWA terminal. Delta's NYC RJ and Domestic 767 "hub" will get slaughtered by both within two years.

What do you think is already happening at PHL with Southwest? Why do you think Southwest continues to clamor for new gates there?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 20):
Suppose Parker isn't true to his word on PIT and actually cuts more mainline flights and puts them in PHL or CVG

Unfortunately, this is what I would put my money on. Not in favor of CVG, because I think they would dissappear into the woodwork too, but PHL instead. Its a shame, because PIT is a much nicer city and airport than PHL.

Youre a good man Steeler83, you want whats best for your city above whats best for an airline. That is commendable and has earned you a spot on my RR list.  Smile

This my mindset. DL has talked about building up LAX in Asia and has built them up to Latin America, I do not want to see that stop or have those be transfered to PHX.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 20):
I am still against this merger somewhat because DL has done a LOT in trying to turn a profit again

I agree DL deserves to show the world what they can do just like US was given a chance to do.
It is what it is...
 
micstatic
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:54 am

Bucky, I agree with your posts on this subject. Further, I'll add that I came to this thread because it was somewhat unique. It is fairly hard to find a US Airways supporter. I understand that press releases during a pre-merger are going to take the path of least resistance, but does Parker really think he can keep a hub in Atlanta and Charlotte? That's insane.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Thread starter):
Second of all, contrary to all the Delta fanboy rhetoric, Delta's in bad shape. I live in the UK and in Philadelphia, and in Britain, Delta is notorious for being the carrier from America with the old, dirty planes and the cheap fares. US definitely has a better reputation.

I don't live in the UK so I can't answer this, but I would say Delta is a widely known carrier, and US Airways barely shows up on any radars across the pond. They have a much smaller intl showing than Delta. I will further add two more points. The first being I think US Airways has a great name that is very marketing friendly. Had they had a name that didn't waive the US flag, much less people would know who they are. 2nd, while you may argue that Delta has old crappy planes, everytime I've flown them I've been stuck on crappy 737-300 and 734 planes. I'd fly on a new interior DLMD88 anyday over a crappy US classic 737.

Just my 2 cents
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USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:59 am

How are those upgrade opportunities going on the US East 757's with 8, count 'em 8 first class seats?

I don't fly leisure markets like Las Vegas very often. How are the upgrade opportunities in a Song aircraft?

if you want to compare redeeming award travel, try to get a seat to Hawaii on US from the 20th to the 23rd of this month

I can redeem on United, or Air Canada or Hawaiian too. I've never had trouble getting Dividend Miles trips -- I've never successfully booked a Delta domestic trip for under 50,000 miles.

15% of Delta's third quarter ASM's were on Delta Connection carriers, while 16% of US Airways' third quarter ASM's were on US Airways Express carriers.

ASMs aren't the only measure -- lots of those segments on Delta are quite short and frequent, meaning that as a proportion of flights, they're higher.

In addition, I'll take a Republic E170 over a Delta Connection turboprop any day of the week!  Wink

you choose to entirely gloss over the circle of Hell that is the US Airways operation at Philadelphia... Good luck getting your luggage to travel with you unless you carry it yourself.

I transit Philadelphia on most of my flights to and from the USA and have never had my bags lost. Delta managed to lose them three separate times last year -- twice in JFK and once in ATL.

The Philly-bashing is a popular topic, but much like the rest of the US bashing, it's based more on emotion than reality. Philly is no Munich Strauss airport, but it's far from horrible too. Philly is a must better transit point than T3 at JFK, just like Charlotte is far superior as a transit point than ATL.

Delta posted third quarter operating income of $168 million. US Airways posted third quarter operating income of $16 million.

Operating income doesn't matter. Net income matters. If you deduct Delta's bond and interest payments, they're stuck in a money-losing posture. If Delta was generating positive cash flow, they'd not have needed to file for Chapter 11 in the first place.

So we should be looking for the 747's in Delta's colors soon?

 laughing  I wouldn't be super-surprised!

Seriously, though, a big domestic to international connection point at Terminal 3 at JFK? That's Pan Am's old model (and Pan Am couldn't make it work with two-holers like A310s either).

Right now, Delta's "turnaround" is based on the assumption that limited competition on international flying will continue indefinitely, along with record demand to and from Europe -- a tenuous proposal. It's not a redevelopment of the business so much as a desperate effort to shuffle around capacity and hope for the best.

What do you think is already happening at PHL with Southwest? Why do you think Southwest continues to clamor for new gates there?

Southwest has a big market with leisure travellers and folks who want a cheap short-hop to Providence or Hartford. They're a totally separate market segment -- I couldn't make SWA my leading airline for business travel even if I wanted to out of PHL because of their lack of big-city service and international services.

That's not the same as jetBlue -- who operate a real, true hub at JFK rather than grabbing six or eight gates at PHL to operate cheap coach flights to STL and SJC.

US has also successfully competed with SWA at 2 of its three largest hubs. Delta's getting eroded in Atlanta from Airtran (better service, lower fares to major business markets), JFK (jetBlue, ditto), and indirectly EWR (why fly Delta when Continental's right across Manhattan and a better product to boot?)
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
micstatic
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Right now, Delta's "turnaround" is based on the assumption that limited competition on international flying will continue indefinitely, along with record demand to and from Europe -- a tenuous proposal. It's not a redevelopment of the business so much as a desperate effort to shuffle around capacity and hope for the best.

Didn't think I could, but I actually partially agree with you on this point. I think all the airlines here in the US think intl flying is their ticket to salvation. Once LCC's get going there, they will find that low hanging fruit is gone. But I will add that this isn't just delta. Continental who you seemed to speak highly of is doing the same thing.
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
just like Charlotte is far superior as a transit point than ATL.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Really???? ATL is one of the most organized airports in the world for in-transit flying. Compared to the amount of traffic they get, ATL is an engineering marvel. CLT is nothing special.
It is what it is...
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am

But I will add that this isn't just delta. Continental who you seemed to speak highly of is doing the same thing.

But Continental has a loyal business traveller base and can earn a premium on most of its routes. People will still choose Continental's product because of its benefits and advantages.

I think the same isn't true of many other US carriers.

And just wait until the new "Green" taxes hit air travel between Europe and the States. I know that in Britain, the new taxes will add 30% or more to a typical coach ticket to the USA. That means a lot fewer travellers deciding to fly Delta to New York for a week and a lot more deciding that the Monarch fare to Majorca is looking tempting.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
How are the upgrade opportunities in a Song aircraft?

Actually excellent. 26 seats in First! All ex-Song a/c have been refurbished and are now 2 cabin. Having trouble keeping up?

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Operating income doesn't matter. Net income matters. If you deduct Delta's bond and interest payments, they're stuck in a money-losing posture. If Delta was generating positive cash flow, they'd not have needed to file for Chapter 11 in the first place.

We've established that Delta couldn't pay its bills in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and that's why it ended up in Ch.11. Get with it..it's 2006. Operating Income matters as it gives a picture of how the airline is actually performing doing its main job - flying. Ch.11 is used to take care of the financial restructuring and renegotiate loans and interest payments.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Seriously, though, a big domestic to international connection point at Terminal 3 at JFK? That's Pan Am's old model (and Pan Am couldn't make it work with two-holers like A310s either).

Right now, Delta's "turnaround" is based on the assumption that limited competition on international flying will continue indefinitely, along with record demand to and from Europe -- a tenuous proposal. It's not a redevelopment of the business so much as a desperate effort to shuffle around capacity and hope for the best.

Again, fixated on JFK while you tell others not to fixate on PHL. More international flying is done out of ATL than out of JFK. Again, please keep up. The amount of European expansion is going to slow as DL has pretty much rounded up most of the remaining destinations - that's why they have also turned their focus to Africa, the Middle East, India, and Asia.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):
Really? How are those upgrade opportunities going on the US East 757's with 8, count 'em 8 first class seats?

Take it from me...I'm a Silver, and I have NEVER had significant problems getting upgraded on flights on US Airways East-configuration 757's. Sure, I've failed to clear, but I've failed to clear just as often on US Airways East-configuration A319's and 737-400's.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:12 am

Operating Income matters as it gives a picture of how the airline is actually performing doing its main job - flying.

Except that the interest payments on the leases and bonds on the planes, gates, and other operating assets aren't included.

Operating is a great measure *if* the planes are all paid for or being leased for free. Otherwise, it's not an accurate view.

fixated on JFK while you tell others not to fixate on PHL

When did I say not to fixate on PHL? PHL is a decent hub, and consistently wins traveller satisfaction awards. Last time I was there, they boasted that Philadelphia International had scored as one of the top airports in the latest JD Powers rankings.

Terminals B and C are decent, Terminal A is a joy, only Terminal F is a pain in the butt. Contrast that to Atlanta *shudder* or the Pan Am terminal at JFK. It's no contest -- given the choice between US through Philly from Europe, or Delta through JFK, I doubt most people would choose Delta all things considered.

The amount of European expansion is going to slow as DL has pretty much rounded up most of the remaining destinations - that's why they have also turned their focus to Africa, the Middle East, India, and Asia.

Their assumption that said expansion is going to be successful and profitable is a bit strange.

LCCs will charge in to the most profitable markets with lower costs -- and as I noted earlier, travel volumes in Delta's only significantly profitable operation (Europe) are set to get hit across the board by higher taxes.

And again, Pan Am flew to Africa, the Middle East, India and Asia too. There's nothing magically profitable about long-haul flights, especially on long, thin routes.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
micstatic
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 31):
And just wait until the new "Green" taxes hit air travel between Europe and the States. I know that in Britain, the new taxes will add 30% or more to a typical coach ticket to the USA. That means a lot fewer travellers deciding to fly Delta to New York for a week and a lot more deciding that the Monarch fare to Majorca is looking tempting.

Doubtful considering NYC is perhaps the number 1 tourist destination in the world. Even if. Howdoes this point addresses the thread subject?
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USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:17 am

Doubtful considering NYC is perhaps the number 1 tourist destination in the world. Even if. Howdoes this point addresses the thread subject?

It's not doubtful. Just because NYC and London are big markets doesn't mean that increased fares won't reduce demand. Delta is laying on the capacity between New York and Europe, where taxes on flying are set to send fares soaring. They're going to be disproportionately hit by the high taxes.

The point addresses the thread subject in that all of Delta's operational problems would then become US's problems post-merger -- which is a bad thing.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 32):
Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
How are the upgrade opportunities in a Song aircraft?

Actually excellent. 26 seats in First! All ex-Song a/c have been refurbished and are now 2 cabin. Having trouble keeping up?

Beat me to it!

Upgrade opportunities on a Song aircraft are outstanding! Many medallions are taking advantage of it. Hell, there's so many F class seats to give away these days, employees are starting to get some regularly as well just like the couple of years after 9/11!

Check your facts Mr. KnowItAll
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
Posts: 242
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:25 am

I'm not a know-it-all, just a frequent flyer who doesn't want Delta's horrifying problems to drag down the good things happening at US Airways.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 38):
good things happening at US Airways.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
micstatic
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 38):
I'm not a know-it-all, just a frequent flyer who doesn't want Delta's horrifying problems to drag down the good things happening at US Airways.

Delta has executed some very impressive cost cuts. I think they are doing much better now. I would be open to Delta merging with other carriers possibly, but USAir brings nothing to the table for Delta. Absolutely nothing. Not to mention they have their own unfinished merger with AS that they are working on. Keep dreaming brother. As pointed out earlier, I think your username explains your irrational bias.
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USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:33 am

USAir brings nothing to the table for Delta. Absolutely nothing.

Except the prospect of survival of the corporate name, and preservation of a majority of the jobs.

Neither is assured (in fact, both are unlikely) in a "stand alone" scenario. Apart from Atlanta, there's precious little else in the Delta system that would survive monolithically. The rest would be cherry-picked in a liquidation.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
micstatic
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 41):
Neither is assured (in fact, both are unlikely) in a "stand alone" scenario. Apart from Atlanta, there's precious little else in the Delta system that would survive monolithically. The rest would be cherry-picked in a liquidation.

Yeah, and US sure has a lot that would. Cough Cough. The shuttle. That's about it there. More people fly DL Shuttle compared to US Shuttle anyway.
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USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:39 am

US is profitable and paying its bills while generating positive cash flow, and is successfully hedging its fuel.

Even if US went out of business in 2005, it still wouldn't change the fact that Delta's long-time survival is in doubt. That US's network might or might not survive a theoretical bankruptcy doesn't change that fact.

(Incidentally, the Philadelphia hub is one of the most profitable hubs in the country and the second-highest-margin-per-passenger transatlantic gateway after JFK -- that operation was what made US interesting to HP in the first place).
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
micstatic
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 43):
US is profitable and paying its bills while generating positive cash flow, and is successfully hedging its fuel.

We will see what happens when DL exits CH11. US Airways has been in dire straights more than any other carrier over the last 10 years if you look at it, year in and year out.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 43):
Even if US went out of business in 2005, it still wouldn't change the fact that Delta's long-time survival is in doubt. That US's network might or might not survive a theoretical bankruptcy doesn't change that fact.

The same could be counter argued.

You are getting an old fashioned airliners.net a$$whipping right now.
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USAirPlatinum
Topic Author
Posts: 242
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RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:51 am

I wouldn't call Delta fanboys hopping on the US Air fanguy as an "asswhipping" -- more just fanboys angry that they're getting a bit of the treatment that they've dished out to US and its customers for a while. Right now, the facts are against Delta's success, and they continue to get worse.

A merger makes sense, but the Delta "pride" won't allow it. That's fine, but pride doesn't pay the mortgage or feed the kids.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
micstatic
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 45):
A merger makes sense, but the Delta "pride" won't allow it. That's fine, but pride doesn't pay the mortgage or feed the kids.

Considering you haven't made a point that hasn't been easily and rapidly defused, and you have no supporters on this subject, I will just chuckle and say, "Dang guy is worried his platinum status will go away"
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ScottB
Posts: 5454
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
How are the upgrade opportunities in a Song aircraft?

Good luck trying to find a 757 flying scheduled service with the Song interior -- you won't. But you'll still have the generous 8 F seats on the US 757.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
I can redeem on United, or Air Canada or Hawaiian too. I've never had trouble getting Dividend Miles trips -- I've never successfully booked a Delta domestic trip for under 50,000 miles.

Must be your luck then. And you can use Delta miles on Continental, Northwest, Aeromexico, Air Jamaica, etc. Then again, Delta is also more generous with bonus miles for its top-tier elites.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
ASMs aren't the only measure -- lots of those segments on Delta are quite short and frequent, meaning that as a proportion of flights, they're higher.

So you're basically saying that you're going to be stuck for longer in an Express torture tube on US Airways?

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
In addition, I'll take a Republic E170 over a Delta Connection turboprop any day of the week!

I'd take a CRJ over an Air Midwest B1900 or a Colgan Saab 340 any day myself.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Operating income doesn't matter. Net income matters. If you deduct Delta's bond and interest payments, they're stuck in a money-losing posture. If Delta was generating positive cash flow, they'd not have needed to file for Chapter 11 in the first place.

Delta is UP $800 million in unrestricted cash and short-term equivalents since year-end 2005 and was up by about $375 million for the third quarter. Yes, they had to file Chapter 11 in September 2005 because they were bleeding cash -- that's why Northwest, United, and US Airways (twice) filed for reorganization. One would argue that the improvements in the cash position show that the reorganization is coming along.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Seriously, though, a big domestic to international connection point at Terminal 3 at JFK

Not exactly. Primarily NYC O&D (which is tenable with smaller aircraft like the 767-300ER) with limited domestic feed. NYC can support transatlantic flying far better than Philadelphia.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Right now, Delta's "turnaround" is based on the assumption that limited competition on international flying will continue indefinitely, along with record demand to and from Europe -- a tenuous proposal.

And US Airways business plan is based on what? Reducing the domestic network and increasing international flying as well. System ASM's are down at US Airways year-over-year, with domestic ASM's down even more.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
Southwest has a big market with leisure travellers and folks who want a cheap short-hop to Providence or Hartford. They're a totally separate market segment -- I couldn't make SWA my leading airline for business travel even if I wanted to out of PHL because of their lack of big-city service and international services.

That's not the same as jetBlue -- who operate a real, true hub at JFK rather than grabbing six or eight gates at PHL to operate cheap coach flights to STL and SJC.

Oh yeah, that's right, Southwest can't get you to Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, the S.F. Bay Area, Pittsburgh, or Phoenix non-stop from Philadelphia, right? (Not that they even fly non-stop to STL or SJC from PHL -- but then US can't get you to SJC non-stop from PHL either). I'm not sure I understand the "real, true hub" statement either given that B6's flying remains heavily oriented toward cheap seats to Florida and red-eye transcons.

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
US has also successfully competed with SWA at 2 of its three largest hubs.

It has? US is second in O&D market share at both PHX and LAS. Southwest's growth at PHL is primarily constrained by gate availability, not US Airways. WN dominates in market share in nearly every competitive market from PHX and LAS. That's US competing successfully?
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4460
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 45):
Right now, the facts are against Delta's success, and they continue to get worse.

Look, I think both airlines deserves some credit. US was in very dire straits, they have pulled themselves up from the rubble (even though they still have a way to go). The future looks good for US (and better should they not aquire DL). The same can be said for DL. They were in dire straits and they are pulling themselves out of it. The future DOES look bright for them. Turth be told, I think people on both sides are starting to let their hatred of the other airline get in the way of rationality. I love DL. They are my favorite airline on every level, but I dont want my distaste for a potential merger to get in the way of giving US a kudos for the work they have accomplished so far.

So in short: Good for you US, you have come a long way and I wish the best to you. But stay away from my airline!!!

Long LIVE DL the way it is!!!
It is what it is...
 
billreid
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: US Airways Flyers Hoping Against The Merger?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:10 am

I am a platinum on DL and fly on both airlines. Simply put there is little difference in quality.
I'll take KLM or LH or BA.

The cuts on CH11 airlines are felt by the pax and all us carriers put out third world quality.

Quantity not quality.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!