El Al 001
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CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:59 pm

After many rumors latly in TLV, Larry Kellner, in a short visit to Israel this week, made it clear that even though TLV is one of CO's strongest, the airline will not start operating to TLV from IAH before 2008, when it's 1st 787 arrives, as the airline lacks of long haul a/c to open new services.
It was also made clear that the airline will not add flights between TLV and EWR for the same reason.

I would say that after DL great success with ATL-TLV which many doubted before, a nonstop service between IAH and TLV looks very attractive more than ever.
Pity CO can not do that for these reasons...

At any case, I always thought that connecting pax from N. America to TLV via NYC is not that wise.
The traffic should be directed via other more "attractive" hubs than JFK or EWR in order to make NYC's operation from and to TLV more proftible (less interlining), to answer the demend that this route has anyhow and to allow other nonstop daily services from more cities to TLV as the interlining will be move to other destinations.

For thess reasons I can not understand how come at least *3* airlines are missing the great demend and potenial that ORD-TLV or IAD-TLV operations can have.

Mike
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 200

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:21 pm

Of course this assuming that there will be a CO in '08' or beyond. If CO fades into the history books, don't look for it's successor, whoever it may be to start TLV service from IAH anytime in the foreseeable future if ever.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
juventus
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:25 pm

I understand IAH is a CO hub, but TLV from Houston??? I'm guessing 90% of the pax load will be connecting from somewhere else, mainly California.
 
AF022
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:16 pm

Is CO planning on keeping their B767-200ER's? I thought the last work was that they were going to phase them out with the arrival of the more efficient B787.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):

Well the Israeli consulate in Houston has a block of tickets on CO weekly inthe range of 20-25 seats so maybe we can make it work  Wink

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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102IAHexpress
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
I understand IAH is a CO hub, but TLV from Houston???

Yeah, there's no ties between Houston and the middle east.  sarcastic 
 
yellowtail
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 5):
Yeah, there's no ties between Houston and the middle east.

Wrong religion!.....last time I checked don't think many people were transferring in TLV on their way to the oil rich Arab Countries
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 6):
Wrong religion!.....last time I checked don't think many people were transferring in TLV on their way to the oil rich Arab Countries

A few weeks ago there was an oil discovery off Israel’s shore.
http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20061010-024623-2403r

Granted it’s not a huge oil reserve, but perhaps the notion that Israel has other oil reserves is not so far fetched. Point being, Israel needs energy, Houston is the energy capital of the world so there is an O&D market. More on Israel’s oil and gas industry here http://www.businessmonitor.com/oilgas/israel.html
 
klwright69
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:28 am

Well, we certainly won't see AA in TLV.
 
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mbm3
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
After many rumors latly in TLV, Larry Kellner, in a short visit to Israel this week, made it clear that even though TLV is one of CO's strongest, the airline will not start operating to TLV from IAH before 2008, when it's 1st 787 arrives, as the airline lacks of long haul a/c to open new services.
It was also made clear that the airline will not add flights between TLV and EWR for the same reason.

I think another CO flight to TLV will be at the top of the list for the new 777s should CO not get the authority to fly to Shanghai.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
El Al 001
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:52 am

I dont know about AA in TLV.

Many years have passed, not a lot remember.

BTW - Shouldnt court decide on this?

And if AA has to pay to those ex-TWA employees, well then it should!
 
BigGSFO
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting El Al 001 (Reply 10):
I dont know about AA in TLV.

Many years have passed, not a lot remember.

BTW - Shouldnt court decide on this?

And if AA has to pay to those ex-TWA employees, well then it should!

Well if AA were to ever make the leap back to TLV, I could see ORD-TLV or MIA-TLV. But again there are issues which need to be resolved. Many years might have passed and some folks might not remember, but I am sure there is a statue of limitations surrounding the ex-TW employees, although I am not clear on the details.

Nonetheless, good for CO for developing the US-Israel market. A gateway west of the Mississippi would be beneficial.
 
IAD380
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:26 am

Today's edition of the Jerusalem Post has a somewhat different version of this story. According to the newspaper, CO flew 8.8 percent more passengers between EWR and TLV in November 2006 than it did last November. CEO Lawrence Kellner told the Jerusalem Post that CO is exploring ways to grow the Tel Aviv market in the long term. The newspaper quotes Mr. Kellner as saying that "Israel is a great market for us and has been consistently strong in both our business and cabin classes." He also said "We want to grow the New York market but will probably add a Houston flight before New York." He did not specify any target date for starting flights between IAH and TLV. However, Mr. Kellner told the newspaper that CO would probably start a third daily flight between EWR and TLV in 2009 when it takes delivery of a large batch of 787s. According to another passage in the article, the CEO also said Continental "would only add flights [to TLV] when it is ready to do so on a daily basis, dismissing the option of adding one or two flights per week when demand arises." Mr. Kellner told the Jerusalem Post that "We want to fly every day and would rather add a third daily flight using smaller aircraft."

A separate article in the Jerusalem Post quotes Mr. Kellner as saying "There has been a lot of consolidation activity recently but we prefer that Continental remain independent as we feel we are very well-positioned in the market at the moment." According to the newspaper, "Kellner said that while the company's short-term position did not warrant consolidation, the possibility may arise in the future."
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:32 am

Continental isn't going to be flying Houston-Tel Aviv anytime soon. There is absolutely no market for such a route.
a.
 
IAD380
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Continental isn't going to be flying Houston-Tel Aviv anytime soon. There is absolutely no market for such a route.

The airline's CEO publicly says that CO probably will add a route between Houston and Tel Aviv before it adds a third daily flight from New York to TLV in 2009. This statement indicates to me that CO believes that there is a viable market for this route, and the airline may add it to its network within the next two years.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 14):

The airline's CEO publicly says that CO probably will add a route between Houston and Tel Aviv before it adds a third daily flight from New York to TLV in 2009. This statement indicates to me that CO believes that there is a viable market for this route, and the airline may add it to its network within the next two years.

We'll see. Airline officials talk often to gain local support. If an airline official says today that they are going to launch a route in three years, I would take it with a grain of salt. Even more so when you consider that there is virtually no market between Houston and Israel (there is a huge market between Houston and the Middle East, of course, but not Israel, and Tel Aviv has no flights to other Middle Eastern countries outside of Jordan) and that Continental doesn't even fly Houston-Frankfurt or Houston-Madrid yet.

We'll see in three years. I'd put money that it isn't going to happen, ever.
a.
 
goCOgo
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:41 am

I think a CLE-TLV flight is just as, if not more likely.

Seriously, though. there are a lot of Jews on the east side of CLE, probably more than in IAH. But I can't imagine either is high on the priority list, even when the 787s come.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 16):
But I can't imagine either is high on the priority list, even when the 787s come.

Seems a few other city pairs would come to mind other than adding a third daily to TLV. But, then again, I am not in charge. I can wish.
You can't cure stupid
 
cle757
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 16):
I think a CLE-TLV flight is just as, if not more likely.

Seriously, though. there are a lot of Jews on the east side of CLE, probably more than in IAH. But I can't imagine either is high on the priority list, even when the 787s come.

I agree CO could fill a CLE-TLV 3 or 4 times per week easy, but CO doesnt seem to want to send a widebody here.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 18):
I agree CO could fill a CLE-TLV 3 or 4 times per week easy, but CO doesnt seem to want to send a widebody here.

LGW and CDG are/will be 757s, let alone a heavy for TLV. Unless it's a diversion, no widebodies for CLE. Sad, but true. At least for near future.
You can't cure stupid
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:17 am

Texas does have a sizeable Jewish population and there are strong traffic flows between Israel and Latin America - which could very easily flow over IAH.

There is a market for more Israel-US service but I would certainly think that CO could deploy all of its 787s on new flights to Asia where there are dozens of great market opportunities - and where the flights are so long that even the best aircraft schedulers will deploy all the orders CO has very quickly.
 
FlyHoss
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Continental isn't going to be flying Houston-Tel Aviv anytime soon. There is absolutely no market for such a route.

I wouldn't be so sure. In my experience, there is a significant amount of business going on in Central America with Isreali ties. Houston would serve as a great gathering/connecting point for that traffic.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 21):

I wouldn't be so sure. In my experience, there is a significant amount of business going on in Central America with Isreali ties. Houston would serve as a great gathering/connecting point for that traffic.

They connect easily through MIA and ATL.
a.
 
FlyHoss
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 21):

I wouldn't be so sure. In my experience, there is a significant amount of business going on in Central America with Isreali ties. Houston would serve as a great gathering/connecting point for that traffic.

They connect easily through MIA and ATL.

True enough, no dispute there. However, my point is that CO now carries their Latin America to/from TLV traffic through IAH in many cases (for those cities that don't have service to EWR). CO knows how much of that traffic then connects to EWR to get to TLV. A non-stop from IAH to TLV would likely capture even more traffic.

Time will tell.

[Edited 2006-12-15 20:57:46]
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IAD380
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:08 am

The current CEO at CO seems to think that there is sufficient traffic between IAH and TLV to seriously consider starting nonstop flights between the two cities. Perhaps, there is a diverse mix of passengers that would make this route profitable. Flights between IAH and TLV may attract both Jewish and Christian passengers from Texas, Arizona, Colorado, California, and other neighboring states. As Israel becomes more prosperous, it too sends more tourist to the United States. In addition to tourists, these flights will probably draw many business passengers because both Israel and the large cities in Texas (Houston, Dallas, and Austin) host many research centers and hi-tech businesses. As many of the messages posted above state, IAH may be a convenient transfer point for passengers (especially Sky Team members) travelling between Israel and Latin America.

Two years ago, many people probably thought that nonstop flights between ATL and TLV would be unprofitable. Yet, reports seems to indicate that DL's flights between ATL and TLV are full, popular, and very profitable. In many ways, IAH seems to be the same type of market as ATL, except Houston is much larger.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:20 am

Sidenote-The Isreali Consulate in Houston has some great working papers out there about Isreali-Texas business links.

ONe example for those with too much free time  Wink
http://houston.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/ma...guageID=0&StatusID=0&DocumentID=-1

I could easily see CO making a 3-4 weekly flight work out of IAH though it might canabalise a bit of the Newark traffic that shouldn't be a big issue with the fleet changes to be made.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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rwsea
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
They connect easily through MIA and ATL.

 checkmark 

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 24):
The current CEO at CO seems to think that there is sufficient traffic between IAH and TLV to seriously consider starting nonstop flights between the two cities. Perhaps, there is a diverse mix of passengers that would make this route profitable. Flights between IAH and TLV may attract both Jewish and Christian passengers from Texas, Arizona, Colorado, California, and other neighboring states

Even for all of the places you mention, ATL, ORD, EWR, and JFK are much more direct routings.
 
IAD380
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 26):
Even for all of the places you mention, ATL, ORD, EWR, and JFK are much more direct routings.

I am not sure that I understand what you mean. Do you mean that flights from ATL, ORD, EWR, and JFK are shorter than flights from IAH? Couldn't a 777 or 787 fly nonstop from IAH to TLV along a direct flight path?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:43 am

IAH is poorly located for domestic traffic connections. However, IAH is one of the best gateways to Latin America. IAH (geographically) is in a poor location for anything other than O&D or some connections to Latin America. The question becomes is there enough local traffic to justify it? They could just as easily connect in ATL, which is just as good a hub to Latin America.
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 24):
Two years ago, many people probably thought that nonstop flights between ATL and TLV would be unprofitable. Yet, reports seems to indicate that DL's flights between ATL and TLV are full, popular, and very profitable. In many ways, IAH seems to be the same type of market as ATL, except Houston is much larger.

Not really. Atlanta-Tel Aviv has been a route crying for non-stop service for a long time. In fact, El Al announced service to Atlanta, on the routing TLV-ATL-MIA-TLV, in the late 1990s, though it never did start. Houston is larger than Atlanta, but not "much larger". Also, Atlanta's Jewish community and Israeli ties are stronger than Houston's.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 27):
I am not sure that I understand what you mean. Do you mean that flights from ATL, ORD, EWR, and JFK are shorter than flights from IAH? Couldn't a 777 or 787 fly nonstop from IAH to TLV along a direct flight path?

He is saying that Houston opens up no new significant connecting opportunities, which is true.

Currently Atlanta, Los Angeles, Miami, New York City, and Newark have non-stop service to Tel Aviv from the United States, along with one-stop service from Chicago (via Toronto on El Al). That is more than enough to connect just about anybody easily, especially in a market where traffic is heavily concentrated to certain areas. Houston does not open up a new catchment area, nor does it have a strong local market. If a seventh US city gets service to Tel Aviv, it is going to be Washington, D.C. or Philadelphia, not Houston.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
Not really. Atlanta-Tel Aviv has been a route crying for non-stop service for a long time. In fact, El Al announced service to Atlanta, on the routing TLV-ATL-MIA-TLV, in the late 1990s, though it never did start. Houston is larger than Atlanta, but not "much larger". Also, Atlanta's Jewish community and Israeli ties are stronger than Houston's.

This is very true. What I find Ironic is that the Dallas/Fort Worth area has more people than both the Houston and Atlanta areas, yet it is the most underserved as fare as international traffic is concerned. Maybe its just the business ties, which I know nothing about.
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 200

Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 30):

This is very true. What I find Ironic is that the Dallas/Fort Worth area has more people than both the Houston and Atlanta areas, yet it is the most underserved as fare as international traffic is concerned. Maybe its just the business ties, which I know nothing about.

Well Atlanta is a megahub for Delta, so that right there is why they have so much international service. If you look at their international airlines, only three are not associated with Delta (Air Canada, British Airways, and Lufthansa), which happen to be the same three non-AA associated international carriers at DFW (DFW also has TACA, but TACA began service to DFW because of their AA partnership). Atlanta also has Coca Cola, UPS, and CNN, which isn't why they have non-stops to Tel Aviv and Venice (that's all thanks to their Delta hub), but it doesn't hurt.

Houston is a huge oil hub, so that right there bring in a significant amount of international traffic.
a.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:18 am

LOL.
The Houston bashers on this forum never cease to amaze me.
Forget about the burgeoning oil and gas traffic between IAH and TLV. Forget about the business ties that already exist, evident from Israel’s consulate in the city.
But try this factoid instead. Houston is home to one of the largest mega churches in the world, Lakewood Church. Christian pilgrims from Lakewood Church could sustain this route just by themselves. I’m not saying all the Christian conservatives in the area will necessarily be paying those high yield fares, but there sure are a lot of them.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 32):
The Houston bashers on this forum never cease to amaze me.
Forget about the burgeoning oil and gas traffic between IAH and TLV. Forget about the business ties that already exist, evident from Israel’s consulate in the city.
But try this factoid instead. Houston is home to one of the largest mega churches in the world, Lakewood Church. Christian pilgrims from Lakewood Church could sustain this route just by themselves. I’m not saying all the Christian conservatives in the area will necessarily be paying those high yield fares, but there sure are a lot of them.

I think the Oil and Gas traffic is not to the Middle East, but not specifically to TLV. According to my co-worker (who lived in TLV for 25 years), most of the oil and natural gas is else where in the middle east. This arguement is certainly relevent to the IAH-DXB route, but not so much TLV. And honestly I DO NOT believe that one church could put 200+ people on a route to TLV.
It is what it is...
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 200

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:41 am

When I first read the title of this thread, I was thrown for a loop. Like others, I never considered a TLV route from IAH, I mean the route on the face of it seems to make little sense. However as a relative newcomer to the Houston area (some 10 years), I am still learning about this city and am amazed by it's cultural and ethnic diversity. While I am not up to speed on Houston's Jewish population in terms of numbers, history and ties both business and cultural to Israel, I hope to learn more in the coming weeks.

As an aside, what little I know of the area, Galveston, pre 1900 had a burgeoning Jewish population and was arguably Texas's first and only truly multi-cultural, cosmopolitan city, whereas Houston was considered a dumpy little berg some 50 miles to the north. One has to wonder if things had been different what Houston would look like today had Galveston not been wiped off the map in 1900.

Back to the topic at hand. As to whether Houston and Tel Aviv are a good match I cannot say, but given the fact the Kellner seems to up for this possible route, well, has as much validity as the head of Korean Airlines recently stating that a KE service to ICN to IAH is likely in 07.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 30):
What I find Ironic is that the Dallas/Fort Worth area has more people than both the Houston and Atlanta areas, yet it is the most underserved as fare as international traffic is concerned.

So what are the numbers between HOU and the DFW Metroplex? I have heard 75-100K. With regards to int'l traffic, well I lived in Dallas (Irving) for about a year in 1990 and I sill travel there at least 3 times a month and frankly I have found and still find the DFW Metroplex to be not quite as 'int'l' as Houston, actually quite provincial.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 34):
So what are the numbers between HOU and the DFW Metroplex? I have heard 75-100K. With regards to int'l traffic, well I lived in Dallas (Irving) for about a year in 1990 and I sill travel there at least 3 times a month and frankly I have found and still find the DFW Metroplex to be not quite as 'int'l' as Houston, actually quite provincial.

Appearantly about 500k. DFW is clearly bigger, however I do agree with your statement about the Houston being the more "international" of the cities. Both cities are great, I love them both, however, Fort Worth is my favorite of the cities. People are the friendliest and TCU is my alma matter.  Big grin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Statistical_Area
It is what it is...
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 200

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 34):
, but given the fact the Kellner seems to up for this possible route, well, has as much validity as the head of Korean Airlines recently stating that a KE service to ICN to IAH is likely in 07.

Difference here being that Korean Air will probably be flying to Houston next year, and in 2010, Houston will probably still not have non-stops to Tel Aviv (but I'd bet they will have them to a certain other Middle Eastern city by then).
a.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):
Appearantly about 500k. DFW is clearly bigger, however I do agree with your statement about the Houston being the more "international" of the cities.

I was not aware it was that much. I suppose when when there is another huge city close by it can really bring up those numbers. I wonder what the history is between these 2 cities in terms of the population differences? As an adopted Houstonian, you tend to want to cheer on the home team. I was surprised to see tha MIA/FLL/Dade surpassed Houston Metro as well.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
Houston will probably still not have non-stops to Tel Avi

I don't recall seeing you so adamant on a particular subject in some time, MAH, any reason why?

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 37):

I don't recall seeing you so adamant on a particular subject in some time, MAH, any reason why?

The route makes zero sense. There is very little local demand for it, and it provides no special connecting options that will boost the case for the route. There is plenty of demand for Houston-Middle East, but, as we all know, for all political and business purposes, Israel might as well be in Europe and has no ties with the rest of the Middle East outside of Jordan. Never mind the fact that Continental has been hinting at starting Houston-Madrid and Houston-Frankfurt for years, even a decade or more, and has yet to start either. Continental will expand long-haul out of Houston in the near future, especially with the 787s. Houston-China? If the time is right and the frequencies become available. Houston-Frankfurt? Definitley. Houston-Rome? Would make a great 787 seasonal route during the summer. Houston-Madrid? The case is much weaker now given that Latin Americans need a visa to transfer, so I don't see it happening. But Houston-Tel Aviv before any of those? It makes no sense.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
The case is much weaker now given that Latin Americans need a visa to transfer, so I don't see it happening. But Houston-Tel Aviv before any of those? It makes no sense

I agree, there is definately a need for an internation expansion at IAH, but TLV should not be next or even close to next. MAD, FRA, and a middle eastern (not TLV) destination should be next.
It is what it is...
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 24):
Two years ago, many people probably thought that nonstop flights between ATL and TLV would be unprofitable. Yet, reports seems to indicate that DL's flights between ATL and TLV are full, popular, and very profitable. In many ways, IAH seems to be the same type of market as ATL, except Houston is much larger.

As pointed out, Houston is larger than ATL. But it's not the same market. Less O&D to TLV, and not as big of a hub. IAH is a big hub, but ATL is the busiest airport in the world. And, ATL is better positioned for connecting traffic.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 27):
I am not sure that I understand what you mean. Do you mean that flights from ATL, ORD, EWR, and JFK are shorter than flights from IAH? Couldn't a 777 or 787 fly nonstop from IAH to TLV along a direct flight path?

I mean that even if CO started IAH-TLV, people in places you mention like Arizona and California wouldn't be any better off. They can still go through NYC, ORD, or ATL, and these places are all more "along the way" than IAH, which would be a detour. Kind of like someone flying from DFW to LHR connecting in MIA.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 39):
I agree, there is definately a need for an internation expansion at IAH, but TLV should not be next or even close to next. MAD, FRA, and a middle eastern (not TLV) destination should be next.

You guys act like IAH TLV service would come at the expense of many long proposed routes.

In any event CO CEO seems to think differently from aNet. I could see if CO was dangling a carrot in front of Houston airport officials for whatever reason, but what would CO have to gain with the TLV officials and journalists by being anything less than sincere about TLV IAH?
 
IAD380
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
Atlanta's Jewish community and Israeli ties are stronger than Houston's.

I don't think that the size of a Jewish community is the most important factor in determining whether flights to TLV will be profitable. For example, certain routes from TLV to cities without large Jewish populations are very profitable, such as FRA (LH), HKG (LY), and MAD and BCN (IB). In other situations, routes from TLV to cities with large Jewish populations are not deemed profitable enough to start or continue, such as EZE (LY and AR) or YUL (LY and AC).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
If a seventh US city gets service to Tel Aviv, it is going to be Washington, D.C. or Philadelphia, not Houston.

Personally, I agree that IAD is a better choice than IAH for flights to TLV. However, CO already has a strong presence in Israel whereas UA never served TLV. I guess that it would be more expensive for UA to open up TLV as a new destination than for CO to launch another daily flight from a city it already serves to one of its hubs. I don't think that LY would start flights to IAD or IAH in the near future. Also, I think that BOS, rather than PHL, would be a better choice for flights to TLV.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33):
I think the Oil and Gas traffic is not to the Middle East, but not specifically to TLV.

I agree that the oil and gas industry would not generate significant traffic between IAH and TLV. However, Houston, Dallas, and Austin are the home to other businesses, such as computers, bio tech, precision instruments, and high-tech agribusiness that could attract business travellers on this route.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Never mind the fact that Continental has been hinting at starting Houston-Madrid and Houston-Frankfurt for years, even a decade or more, and has yet to start either.

LH has served the IAH-FRA route for more than 20 years and it is well entrenched on this route. CO would be forced to compete with LH on the IAH-FRA route, whereas it would enjoy a monopoly on the IAH-TLV route. Your post indicates that IAH-MAD would primarily serve passengers who are connecting to or from flights to Latin America. Yet, there are direct nonstop flights between MAD and most major cities in Latin America. I assume that many of these passengers would prefer direct flights to connections in IAH.

[quote=102IAHexpress,reply=41]You guys act like IAH TLV service would come at the expense of many long proposed routes. In any event CO CEO seems to think differently from aNet. I could see if CO was dangling a carrot in front of Houston airport officials for whatever reason, but what would CO have to gain with the TLV officials and journalists by being anything less than sincere about TLV IAH?

I agree.  Smile  checkmark  I am surprised that CO is seriously considering a new route between IAH and TLV. However, CO obviously determined that this route is feasible before its CEO made this public announcement.
 
drerx7
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:32 pm

I think that once the 787s come online more focus will be on IAH international expansion, I can see a market from IAH-TLV, because IAH is just as good of a connection point from points south and westward as ATL or EWR.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 30):
What I find Ironic is that the Dallas/Fort Worth area has more people than both the Houston and Atlanta areas, yet it is the most underserved as fare as international traffic is concerned. Maybe its just the business ties, which I know nothing about.

And part of the reason is because AA has very concentrated int'l service to a handful of int'l cities - many of which are partner hubs - while CO and DL serve many more int'l cities using their own equipment (excluding AA to Latin America).

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):
Houston being the more "international" of the cities.

Houston has always been more int'l. Look at where the foreign consulates in Texas are.... they are mostly in Houston. Houston has had many foreign carriers for a long, long time.
 
nateDAL
Posts: 404
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 am

RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 200

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 44):

Houston has always been more int'l. Look at where the foreign consulates in Texas are.... they are mostly in Houston. Houston has had many foreign carriers for a long, long time.

Not just Texas. Houston is 3rd in the US with 85. (LA #2 at 87) Dallas only has 30.

Anyway, TLV-IAH would probably work. Mr. Kellner knows more about its potential than the armchair CEOs here.

[Edited 2006-12-16 05:22:30]
Set Love Free
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:01 pm

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 42):
I don't think that the size of a Jewish community is the most important factor in determining whether flights to TLV will be profitable. For example, certain routes from TLV to cities without large Jewish populations are very profitable, such as FRA (LH), HKG (LY), and MAD and BCN (IB).

No, it is not indicitave, but it helps. Also, Madrid and Barcelona do have large Jewish communities.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 42):
Also, I think that BOS, rather than PHL, would be a better choice for flights to TLV.

Boston is not a hub for anybody. Philadelphia is, and actually has a larger Jewish community.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 42):
However, CO obviously determined that this route is feasible before its CEO made this public announcement.

They didn't determine anything. We don't even have an official written source for this, nor a quote. It is extremely likely that a statement like "we will not rule out Houston-Tel Aviv in the future, but nothing will be considered before 2008" was mistaken as "Oh we have done all the research, and Houston-Tel Aviv will be a great route to launch in 2008".
a.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:38 pm

Would a CO B767 IAH-TLV flight make any sense even with a stop somewhere in Europe, maybe GLA or MAN?
Even before the advent of the aircraft capable of non-stop TLV-U.S.A. flights, several U.S. airlines continued to stop enroute between U.S.A and Israel in Europe.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:13 am

I dont see CO launching an IAH-TLV flight either......CO has still not started the long discussed nonstop flights between IAH and FRA and MAD, and those services would be far more important to the CO network than an IAH-TLV nonstop.

A couple of general points:

1. A.net members in general place far too much importance on ethnic connections (we have discussed this before)....simply because there is a Jewish community in Houston and because Israel is the Jewish state does NOT mean that there is adequate demand to introduce the route. There is a Vietnamese community in Houston as well, and IAH-Hanoi is not happening just yet either. Remember that Ethnic travel, lesiure travel and VFR travel is low yeild, not what CO is looking for. The UJA mission from Houston and the Bnai Brith Club from Houston can happily fly CO IAH-EWR-TLV.

2. While most people think of Israel and Judiasm together, there are many many Christian tourists that visit Israel.....some rather important events in CHristianity took place in the very same Holy Land so its really not all about Jewish travel. (Something to think about with Christmas just around the corner.) Also consider the large Israeli-Arab population that utilize air services in/out of TLV.

3. Any longhaul route such as IAH-TLV needs a good base of O&D business and premium traffic. Israel has a big tech industry, defense industry, aerospace industry (think about all of those airliners that become freighers in Israel), etc.......if and when there is strong demand from business travellers traveling between Texas/the Southwest and Israel for an IAH-TLV nonstop, we will then see the route develop.

4. That Kellner said that new routes to TLV are being studied is an expected response to the local media......of course CO is looking at its possibilities, they look at lots of potential routes, that does not mean that they will happen. What should have Kellner said, sorry Israel, we are sending two 777s per day to Israel, done even think about extra service in the future?

5. When the 787s arrive, CO will have more flexibility......we very well could see a third flight on the EWR-TLV run. EWR makes much more sense for a third service to TLV than a new IAH-TLV flight since its the ideal gateway to Europe and there is very strong local O&D. We could see the schedule on EWR-TLV changed from 2 daily 777s to 3 flights with any combination of 762s, 787s and 777s, depending upon what fits the market best.

6. CLE-TLV is a nonstarter as well.....CLE is looking forward to CLE-LGW returning to year round service, the new 2008 CLE-CDG flight and hopefully a CLE-AMS service will follow in the future. Unless CO adds significantly more feed and capacity into CLE, that will be about it for CO transatantic services out of CLE....with CLE-FRA a remote possibility for future service.

Interesting thread.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
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RE: CO: Flights Between IAH And TLV Not Before 2008

Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 48):
What should have Kellner said, sorry Israel, we are sending two 777s per day to Israel, done even think about extra service in the future?

No. He did not have to say anything at all. In the alternative, he could have said that CO adequately meets current market demand by flying two daily 777 flights between EWR and TLV. He also could have said that CO would add a third daily flight to EWR whenever demand justified more flights. In other words, he could have been silent about a new route between IAH and TLV.