JBLUA320
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British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:28 am

Hey all...

CALGARY, Alberta, Dec 14 (Reuters) - British Airways Plc (BAY.L: Quote, Profile , Research) would welcome an alliance with low-cost Canadian carrier WestJet Airlines Ltd. (WJA.TO: Quote, Profile , Research) now that it has beefed up service between London Heathrow and Canada, its chief executive said on Thursday.

Full article: http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...48_N14310775&type=comktNews&rpc=44

JBLU
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:37 am

I wonder what BA will demand from WS. I think WS would have to do something if they expect a partnership with a premium airline like BA. Somebody going to fly in First class to YYC on BA and then board on a WS flight by sock colour?  Yeah sure
 
Sketty222
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:14 am

I think this is something and nothing. I cant see BA making partership with a LCC because like Vonrichtofen states, people wont want to fly Premium with BA and then transfer to a LCC.

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
JBLUA320
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:39 am

On the flip side, though, who else can BA partner with that has enough of a network around Canada including a premium product? I can't imagine a BA partnership with AC would sit well with the other Star and Oneworld carriers.

JBLU
 
Sketty222
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 3):
On the flip side, though, who else can BA partner with that has enough of a network around Canada including a premium product? I can't imagine a BA partnership with AC would sit well with the other Star and Oneworld carriers.

Good point!
I think that Westjet may have to offer more than they do now before they can codeshare/partner-up with BA
BA are one of the best if not the BEST premium carrier in Europe and they need to make good decisions about who they want their Premium travellers to connect with. I completely agreethat a partnership is not going to happen with AC so Westjet may be an option if they can produce the goods.

Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
jacobin777
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:49 am

I would like to see AA partner with WS also...its not as if there are a lot of carriers in Canada which has as extensive of a route network as either WS or AC...
"Up the Irons!"
 
ACDC8
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:02 am

Even though there have been rumours of BA and WS for some time now, one can't help but wonder if this is why BA has started service to YYC. Seems logical, WS's YYC base has an extensive network and a code-share agreement between the two would be fantastic for those of us who take connecting flights to YVR or YYC and then fly Trans-Atlantic on a regular basis. However, as in the posts above, would WS need a premium cabin? I could understand that some premium paying passengers don't enjoy going from a premium cabin into a econo cabin. But, AC is no different if I am flying AC mainline and then onto Jazz.
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YYCowboy
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:41 pm

Why do you people figgure premium customers rule the world? They are gravy and high maintanance. Have any of you armchair critics ever boarded a West Jet flight? You make it sound like its trash. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figgure if a BA passanger wants to get to Regina, or Winnipeg, or Kelowna, it is at MOST, a 2 hour commute from any of BA's Canadian ports of entry. West Jet offers the most modern aircraft, nice leather seats with TV and ample leg room, it IS a premium LCC. Try and think beyond Canadas major cities, not everyones final destination. What kind of premium product does Air Canada offer on Dash 8's or CRJ's, because thats the other choice. I think any kind of aliance between West Jet and British Airways is a stroke of genious, and is a win win situation for the airlines and passangers alike.

My 2 cents worth.
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VonRichtofen
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
Why do you people figgure premium customers rule the world? They are gravy and high maintanance.

They are high yield passengers. They usually pay 5 times more than economy pax. They get the best service because they pay for it. Premium pax are the airlines bread and butter, not economy pax.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
Have any of you armchair critics ever boarded a West Jet flight?



Yes I have, probably more than a dozen. I'm not saying they're trash, I'm saying that a Premium passenger, especially one coming from a World renowned airline like BA expects more than a bubbly smile and a leather seat.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
What kind of premium product does Air Canada offer on Dash 8's or CRJ's, because thats the other choice.

Well most cities that Jazz flies Dash 8's to WS doesn't even serve....
Also, the CRJ-705's which do YWG, Comox, YXX and some YVR runs have a premium cabin and have AVOD systems in place.

Let's not forget Lounges, priority bag handling etc. etc. These are all things Premiums customers demand (and rightfully so).

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 4):
I completely agreethat a partnership is not going to happen with AC so Westjet may be an option if they can produce the goods.

Full on partnership with AC... No, but there already is an interline agreement in place. AC interlines passengers on the new BA flight from YYC-LHR and BA does the same for pax connecting from the LHR-YYC leg. This is something WS can't even do yet because their reservation system doesn't allow it (for now anyway, obviously this will probably change).

Kris
 
ACDC8
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
Have any of you armchair critics ever boarded a West Jet flight?

I've been flying them frequently since 1996.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
You make it sound like its trash

Who's making it sound like trash? I for one, think they have a great product.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figgure if a BA passanger wants to get to Regina, or Winnipeg, or Kelowna, it is at MOST, a 2 hour commute from any of BA's Canadian ports of entry.

True, but there are many pax who want more then what WS (or Jazz for that matter) offer. Especially travellers from Europe think differently then us Canadians. I've spent have of my life living here and half in Germany, German companies and many travellers are willing to shell out more €'s for a premium cabin, even for a 1 hour domestic flight.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
West Jet offers the most modern aircraft, nice leather seats with TV and ample leg room, it IS a premium LCC.

This is not enough for many travellers, as VonRichtofen has pointed out.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
Try and think beyond Canadas major cities, not everyones final destination. What kind of premium product does Air Canada offer on Dash 8's or CRJ's, because thats the other choice.

Unfortunatly, they don't offer anything else either.

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 7):
I think any kind of aliance between West Jet and British Airways is a stroke of genious, and is a win win situation for the airlines and passangers alike.

I agree. But I think WS does need to offer more before it happens. Only time will tell.

Now, I just hope that KL gets there act together and finds a Canadian partner.  Smile
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VonRichtofen
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):
True, but there are many pax who want more then what WS (or Jazz for that matter) offer.

Don't forget many cities Jazz serves from YYC have CRJ-705's operating the flights. The 705 has a J class cabin as well as AVOD system in every seat. So it's not only the larger cities that have the J class option.


Kris
 
ACDC8
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 10):
The 705 has a J class cabin as well as AVOD system in every seat. So it's not only the larger cities that have the J class option

True. My post was more in regards to cities such as YLW, YKA and Northern
Alberta.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
YYCowboy
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):
Now, I just hope that KL gets there act together and finds a Canadian partner

Yup, I agree. Maybe West Jet can establish itself as a feeder airline for a wide variety of international carriers, without being exclusive to any one. It just might be a market they can expand on and entice many carriers to look at YYC or YEG for that matter.

Thanks for all the sensible responses to my comments. I'm only trying to be realistic about what, is, can, and should be available for international travellers.

I'm a fan of both our National carriers
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milan320
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):
I wonder what BA will demand from WS.

I hope BA demand the the WS Cabin crew stop that song-and-dance routine of theirs. Embarassing to say the least.

/Milan320
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JBLUA320
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 13):
I hope BA demand the the WS Cabin crew stop that song-and-dance routine of theirs

That's part of the product WS is known for, and many passengers enjoy. Same with WN in the USA. It'd be unrealistic for BA to deman that to stop, I think... you can change or upgrade the product, but a change like stopping the "sing and dance" routine is changing the corporate culture... something WS management has worked tireless to cultivate.

JBLU
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 14):
That's part of the product WS is known for, and many passengers enjoy. Same with WN in the USA. It'd be unrealistic for BA to deman that to stop, I think...

While I agree their "song and dance" works well for them currently, but with a partnership with BA they will be getting some more discerning pax. Joe Schmoes who fly once a year to visit grandma in Saskatoon may enjoy it, but passengers from Europe, especially business passengers would probably rather do without the Disney Land routine.


Kris
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:39 pm

WS and BA spoke prior to the BA YYC start-up at fairly high levels. It will be interesting to see what's going to happen.
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JBLUA320
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 15):
Joe Schmoes who fly once a year to visit grandma in Saskatoon

Sounds a bit generalized... I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying... Airlines like WestJet manage to board a tremendous amount of high-class passengers and names, similar to jetBlue in the US. Cheap doesn't mean unclassy!

JBLU
 
kanebear
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:19 am

HP ain't exactly a palace of the sky and BA were tied up with them for quite some time. IMO the ability to get someplace conveniently is going to outweigh the 'premium' argument.

If it's that big a deal, WS can always install Eurobiz seats and on important codeshare routes can offer a quasi-J service... or even not change the seating at all, simply block the middle seat on the first few rows and offer free drinkies.

Remember that almost all intra-Europe flights DO NOT have different seating up front so if anything, WS will be closer to what folks who fly BA are used to from a physical product standpoint. The only thing WS would really need are a few strategically placed lounges at key airports. IMO that's NOT a big deal and potentially another revenue enhancer as they can sell memberships a-la AA's Admiral's Club/UA's RCC/DL's CRC, etc.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 18):
Remember that almost all intra-Europe flights DO NOT have different seating up front so if anything, WS will be closer to what folks who fly BA are used to from a physical product standpoint.

Great point about the seating arrangement. Also, I believe WestJet now has an agreement with certain airports to let passengers buy lounge access.

JBLU
 
threepoint
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 18):
or even not change the seating at all, simply block the middle seat on the first few rows and offer free drinkies.



Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 19):
Great point about the seating arrangement

You know, I can imagine some ruffled feathers from the average Westjet passenger if they are told a flight is 'full' when in fact there are a few empty middle seats in the first rows. I can imagine the indignation when a perfectly good seat is going unoccupied just because somebody paid a bit more to have more elbow room: "Yes Mrs Smith, I know you have to get to your family reunion/son's graduation/sick mother's bedside but this is Gerard Willoughby-Smythe IV and he did pay 3000 pounds first-class from London don't you know". In Calgary, no more import is granted to an investment banker from the City than to a ranchhand from Okotoks, and WS customer service agents will have their work cut out for them explaining to Mrs Smith why she can't plunk herself down between the people in seats 2A and 2C.
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yyz717
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:38 am

Westjet can only gain from being in an alliance with BA, AA, CX etc. The ability to feed these carriers from the Westjet "hubs" at YVR, YYC and YYZ will add additional growth to Westjet, which is already growing revenue at several times the rate of AC year-over-year.

The rather snide previous comments about Westjet service should be ignored. As a regular flyer with AC and WS in economy (where 90%+ of travellers are), both services are similar with a slight edge to WS due to friendlier crew, leather seats and liveTV. I am an employee of neither carrier so I have no axe to grind.

OneWorld members will have no problem with the already-high service standards of WS. The lack of a premium cabin is a minor point, and largely a non-issue. A BA premium cabin passenger arriving in YYC and connecting on WS to YEG, YVR, YXX, YLW, YXE or anywhere will experience great service by Canadians actually based in Western Canada -- I can't think of a better welcome to Western Canada.

A OneWorld membership by WS will also possibly result in more AA and BA service to Canada, which can only benefit Canadians.
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A332
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
Westjet can only gain from being in an alliance with BA, AA, CX etc. The ability to feed these carriers from the Westjet "hubs" at YVR, YYC and YYZ will add additional growth to Westjet, which is already growing revenue at several times the rate of AC year-over-year.

Exactly, WS is at the point where it is critical they establish a strong alliance with a large carrier in order to futher growth and expansion opportunities. Canada does not provide WS the size of market WN enjoys in the USA, this is a crucial step.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
The rather snide previous comments about Westjet service should be ignored.

Agreed, but what else would you expect on this board? It's always AC or nothing... forgetting that domestically WS offers a similar if not better experience.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
OneWorld members will have no problem with the already-high service standards of WS. The lack of a premium cabin is a minor point, and largely a non-issue.

Exactly! This is hardly a reactive approach. People need to understand that high-level discussions such as these don't just magically happen for no reason. BA already sees a WS partnership as a huge opportunity to further their interests in the Canadian market. All these cheap shots are garbage statements with no substance or value.
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threepoint
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
both services are similar with a slight edge to WS due to friendlier crew, leather seats and liveTV



Quoting A332 (Reply 22):
forgetting that domestically WS offers a similar if not better experience.

Like you, I have spent more time than I care to admit as a passenger on both carriers. I find the level of service almost identical. The crew is no more or less friendly, competent or well-presented at either airline. I and many others prefer cloth over leather seats, especially in the summer and I think most passengers will find that AC's new AVOD will make the erratic Live TV pale in comparison.

Quoting A332 (Reply 22):
what else would you expect on this board? It's always AC or nothing

I invite you to do some cursory searches on this forum where you will find that there are as many WS proponents as there are AC fans.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
A BA premium cabin passenger arriving in YYC and connecting on WS to YEG, YVR, YXX, YLW, YXE or anywhere will experience great service by Canadians actually based in Western Canada -- I can't think of a better welcome to Western Canada.

If you substitute 'AC Jazz' for 'WS' in that comment, it would be equally valid.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
A OneWorld membership by WS will also possibly result in more AA and BA service to Canada, which can only benefit Canadians.

Agreed, but as queried before, I wonder how that would force Westjet to deviate from their current successful LCC model. OneWorld would come with significant costs and I imagine many restrictions. Would a partnership with BA allow WS to fly to the UK (esp. LHR) if they do go through with the oft-rumoured transatlantic 737-700 flights?

Quoting A332 (Reply 22):
All these cheap shots are garbage statements with no substance or value.

I didn't read any cheap shots. Some posters commented that a premium European passenger may not appreciate the service difference between BA First or Business and Westjet's less rigid (some would say anything goes) approach. Nobody belittled Westjet, but made simple (and true) observations.
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swissy
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 22):
Canada does not provide WS the size of market WN enjoys in the USA, this is a crucial step.

Agree 100%

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
Westjet can only gain from being in an alliance with BA, AA, CX etc. The ability to feed these carriers from the Westjet "hubs" at YVR, YYC and YYZ will add additional growth to Westjet, which is already growing revenue at several times the rate of AC year-over-year.

I hope so since they are only in business since 96....so it is not relevant

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
The rather snide previous comments about Westjet service should be ignored. As a regular flyer with AC and WS in economy (where 90%+ of travellers are), both services are similar with a slight edge to WS due to friendlier crew, leather seats and liveTV. I am an employee of neither carrier so I have no axe to grind.

Me too and I prefer AC over WS if flights are longer than 90min.....

A "feeder" status would cost WS too much money, I think WS has come to a point were they have to make a decision, stick with what you have or go bigger & international with 737/T7 and be a strong partner in a alliance and the sky will be the limit.......

Cheers,
 
threepoint
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting Swissy (Reply 24):
I think WS has come to a point were they have to make a decision, stick with what you have or go bigger & international

I concur. There is room for a bit more North American growth, but it will be very interesting to see what happens 1, 2, 5 or 10 years hence. Makes you wonder where they're going to deploy all the 737's still on order.
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yyz717
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 25):
Makes you wonder where they're going to deploy all the 737's still on order.

WS has 63 73G's in service. With only 14 more on order for 2007-2009. Granted more are likely to be ordered for 2008 and 2009 delivery. Given WS's profits and continuing 20% y-o-y growth rates, a more apt question is when will WS buy MORE 73G's, and specifically whether the 739ER is in their longer term plans?

With unit costs about 25% lower than AC, WS has lots of room to grow in any current market by attacking AC with additional frequencies, let alone new markets.
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threepoint
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 26):
continuing 20% y-o-y growth rates

Common growth rates for a decade-old carrier filling a large void left by CP, but 20% I think we can all agree is unsustainable.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 26):
With unit costs about 25% lower than AC, WS has lots of room to grow in any current market by attacking AC with additional frequencies, let alone new markets.

I think we've hashed this tired argument out a hundred times. Unit costs mean little when compared with the premium yield AC receives. I don't see that changing dramatically. Both carriers are operating at what - 80% load factors? How many additional frequencies can Canada's flying public be expected to support?
Bottom line: we have likely reached a plateau when it comes to domestic service levels and market share. New growth will probably be found in new routes, and with that in mind, I think the addition of ACs new Embraer fleet is going to cause WS a lot of headaches over time. Hence, the chat with Mr. Walsh.
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swissy
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 26):
With unit costs about 25% lower than AC, WS has lots of room to grow in any current market by attacking AC with additional frequencies, let alone new markets.

Would be hard to do with one AC type only......

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
I think we've hashed this tired argument out a hundred times. Unit costs mean little when compared with the premium yield AC receives. I don't see that changing dramatically. Both carriers are operating at what - 80% load factors? How many additional frequencies can Canada's flying public be expected to support?
Bottom line: we have likely reached a plateau when it comes to domestic service levels and market share. New growth will probably be found in new routes, and with that in mind, I think the addition of ACs new Embraer fleet is going to cause WS a lot of headaches over time. Hence, the chat with Mr. Walsh.

Agree 100% and that is why I believe the time has come for WS to find a partner and grow internationally, I personally think WS would do very fine if they apply their LCC "Lower cost carrier" strategy on international flights with different metal......

Cheers,
 
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yyz717
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 26):
continuing 20% y-o-y growth rates

Common growth rates for a decade-old carrier filling a large void left by CP, but 20% I think we can all agree is unsustainable.

The 20% YOY growth HAS BEEN sustained. There is no reason it will suddenly collapse to 5%.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
Both carriers are operating at what - 80% load factors? How many additional frequencies can Canada's flying public be expected to support?

Clearly, WS is growing the market, similar to WN in the US. Combined with strong economic growth.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
New growth will probably be found in new routes, and with that in mind,

No. The largest markets for AC in North America are the same as they have been for 40 years: YYZ/YUL/YVR/YYC/YEG/YHZ/YWG/LGA/ORD/MIA/LAX etc. New growth will overwhelmingly be in these same markets. However unexciting it is to talk about it.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 27):
I think the addition of ACs new Embraer fleet is going to cause WS a lot of headaches over time.

I agree. But then with lower unit costs, WS can likely fly the 736 cheaper than AC can the lower capacity E190. So perhaps the E fleet is no threat to WS.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 17):
Cheap doesn't mean unclassy!

I wouldn't call WS exactly cheap... I happened to shell out some $ 980 (including taxes) for an YYZ-YYC RT flight. It was in April 2004, when WS had zero IFE aboard and AC was serving a hot meal inflight for less money. That was my last WS flight.
For comparison, a week later I flew YYZ-NRT RT with AC. Paid $ 1150 for it.
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sebring
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RE: British Airways / WestJet In Prelim. Talks

Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 29):
I agree. But then with lower unit costs, WS can likely fly the 736 cheaper than AC can the lower capacity E190. So perhaps the E fleet is no threat to WS.

The E190 costs 24% less per block hour for AC than one of its A320s, so it stands to reason that it is competitive on block hour cost with a WS 737 - WS pilots are common-rated, AC E190 pilots are on a lower wage scale than other AC pilots. This question of harm or no-harm is only going to be relevant on routes where AC and WS go head to head with a comparable of departures. The WS 737 will have a lower CASM, but AC has a higher RASM and the E190 has business class. If the two carriers each operated one flight on a given city pair, and split the market evenly, say 80 passengers each, AC would likely make money, WS would be close to, or below, its BELF even with lower CASM. So in these situations, the question is whether WS would be able to get enough volume and high enough fares to stay in the game. WS is not an airline content to make 1% margins.

You would think that Calgary-JFK and Fort McMurray-Toronto should be WS routes, too, but the question is whether their analysis shows that these routes could support WS with the kinds of profits to which it is accustomed. AC has shown it will be content with much smaller margins, especially since it has some nice bread and butter routes which generate higher margins.

What the E190 and E175 really do is allow AC to stay on routes they might otherwise have abandoned or handed over to Jazz. Good examples are YYZ-SAN, which is being given over to an E-190 for the winter because loads diminish, or YYZ-DFW and YYZ-IAH where AC has basically forced US competition to downsize most of their frequencies to 50 seaters because the 73-seat E-175 is cheap enough to operate on all frequencies, and comfortable enough that it can attract passengers from other airlines who do not want to spend three hours in an RJ. It's not only about AC vs. WS, it's about AC vs US legacy carriers.

As for an alliance, it can only do WS good, providing it is with multiple carriers and at least one large US carrier like AA. Otherwise, the added overhead, like baggage interlining which is a significant cost item, will offset any revenue gains.


[Edited 2006-12-19 03:14:00]

[Edited 2006-12-19 03:17:57]