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9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:58 pm

Hi!

Looking for real, honest (no conspiracy here!) information about the planes involved in 9/11. As far as we know here's the list:

N334AA AA11 was a 767-223 which hit the North Tower of the WTC
N612UA UA175 was a 767-222 which hit the South Tower of the WTC
N644AA AA77 was a 757-223 which struck the Pentagon
N591UA UA93 was a 757-222 which went down in Shanksville, PA

Now, I don't understand why an official FAA Registration Database (see at:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...644AA&cmndfind.x=13&cmndfind.y=10)
didn't and still doesn't keep exact track of the planes.

This Database says, that the planes were Deregistered on/Reason for Cancellation:
N334AA - 01/14/2002 - Destroyed
N612UA - 09/28/2005 - Cancelled
N644AA - 01/14/2002 - Destroyed
N591UA - 09/28/2005 - Cancelled

My questions are:
1. Why the delay with the deregistration? (it took 4 months for two planes and 4 years for other two!)
2. What FAA regulation says about deregistration time?
3. Why there's no "Destroyed" listed next to 2 other planes?

Thanks for a feedback!
An
 
bimmerkid19
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Encore (Thread starter):

Can you say government conspiracy ?  Wink
Last flights: LH 3738 MUC - ZRH , LH 3749 ZRH - MUC . Upcoming: EK 50 MUC - DXB 3-aug. and EK 322 DXB - ICN 7- Aug.
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:25 pm

No conspiracy please.  Sad I just want a simple explanation.
Thanks!
 
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BreninTW
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:30 pm

It might have something to do with the way in which the aircraft owners processed the de-registration.

The dates might have something to do with who actually OWNED the aircraft -- were the UA birds leased, but the AA birds owned? The legal wrangling on ownership and liability might have played a role in delaying the UA birds' de-registration.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:35 pm

To my way of thinking, the fact that the two AA dates/reasons are the same and the two UA dates/reasons are the same suggests that it was just corporate preference. I can't think of any insurance or lessor (if any) related reasons...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:37 pm

What about FAA explanation? Can we approach them with how officials would explain the inconsistency? What you suggest?
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
To my way of thinking, the fact that the two AA dates/reasons are the same and the two UA dates/reasons are the same suggests that it was just corporate preference. I can't think of any insurance or lessor (if any) related reasons...

I understand the thinking, but does it mean that the owner has saying in what FAA enters in the registration database? If my plane was destroyed, can I ask FAA to enter just "Cancelled"? And can I tell FAA about my plane being destroyed in a terrrible accident - four years later? I just can't connect the dots.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:51 pm

Check out FAR 47.41

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr_2006/janqtr/pdf/14cfr47.43.pdf

It appears that the registration is active until such time as the corporation requests that it be cancelled. The only scenarios I can see in a quick glance that involve time limits are ones involving a corporation that dissolves, or an individual owner that passes away...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jwenting
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:07 pm

and delays are increased by the time the paperwork takes to go through the government bureaucracies...
I'm actually surprised it took only 4 months for the AA birds, the FAA must have been working overtime to do it that rapidly.
I wish I were flying
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
Check out FAR 47.41

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr_2006/janqtr/pdf/14cfr47.43.pdf

It appears that the registration is active until such time as the corporation requests that it be cancelled. The only scenarios I can see in a quick glance that involve time limits are ones involving a corporation that dissolves, or an individual owner that passes away...

That's an interesting answer. Thanks!

I read the Code, however, which says:


§ 47.41 Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration
issued by the FAA under this
subpart is effective, unless suspended
or revoked, until the date upon which—
[...]
(2) The registration is canceled at the
written request of the holder of the
certificate;
(3) The aircraft is totally destroyed
or scrapped;

Now, for me (3) is more important that (2), and (3) fulfills the Certification suspension. What do you think? Any lawyers here in Forum?
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 8):
and delays are increased by the time the paperwork takes to go through the government bureaucracies...
I'm actually surprised it took only 4 months for the AA birds, the FAA must have been working overtime to do it that rapidly.

C'mon - be serious. Four years for deregistration two of the most famous planes? Even bureaucracy doesn't explain this fully.
 
jwenting
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:12 pm

I didn't say it does, just that it can completely explain 4 months or more  Smile

But rest assured there is no conspiracy.
No secret CIA plot under which the aircraft never actually crashed but were disappeared so they couldn't be scrapped from the registry.
I wish I were flying
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:13 pm

You might direct further questions to these folks....

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certific...ry/contact_aircraft_certification/
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bohica
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:18 pm

My guess is that it took so long for the UA planes to be de-registered was due to the process being tied up in bankruptcy.

Only a guess.
 
reyes27
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:05 pm

i am guessing tax reasons and depreciation
 
EMBQA
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Encore (Reply 10):
C'mon - be serious. Four years for deregistration two of the most famous planes? Even bureaucracy doesn't explain this fully.

Sure. The legal wheels United Airlines. If you notice they are also the one that list them as cancelled, not destroyed. Over that time period their Lawyers had bigger issues to deal. Also, there may be some connection to the lw suites that might have been filed by the families
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 15):
Sure. The legal wheels United Airlines. If you notice they are also the one that list them as cancelled, not destroyed. Over that time period their Lawyers had bigger issues to deal. Also, there may be some connection to the lw suites that might have been filed by the families

Well, read the Code again. It says that the aircraft must be deregistered when is totally destroyed.


§ 47.41 Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration
issued by the FAA under this
subpart is effective [...] until the date upon which—
[...]
(3) The aircraft is totally destroyed
or scrapped;

It's so simple to me - the planes were destroyed on 9/11, why then it had been reported four years later? It's a clear violation of the FAA Code.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 5):
What about FAA explanation? Can we approach them with how officials would explain the inconsistency? What you suggest?

Would any official be aware of the inconsistency, and more importantly what needs to be explained??? This has no material effect on anything at all. I would say that asking for an explanation is a waste of their time and hence our tax dollars. My suggestion is to let it go.

Quoting Encore (Reply 6):
I just can't connect the dots.

I struggling to understand why you place any significance on the issue. Exactly why are trying to connect dots in the first place???

Quoting Encore (Reply 16):
It's so simple to me - the planes were destroyed on 9/11, why then it had been reported four years later? It's a clear violation of the FAA Code.

 sarcastic  Gee whiz, let me think on this. Maybe having aircraft destroyed in this manner is not a routine event and AA/UA have no procedures in place. Maybe the very obvious and public destruction of the aircraft led to the assumption that the FAA knew about it and thus no paperwork was required. Maybe the folks at AA and UA faced emotional issues and just didn't address the question. Maybe it was just outright overlooked. Maybe nobody files timely registrations cancellations, or maybe some airlines are better than others about filing.

 point I suggest you look into the registration cancellation history of aircraft in general. Are the belated cancellations of the aircraft involved in 9/11 in any way unique?
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:09 am

Very interesting? Does this mean that pax killed on the 2 UA flights, that their families are not entiteld to compensation? If my memory serves me correctly, this is like missing in action and therefore no compensation is paid until after a certain time has elasped. Just wondering that's all
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 17):
Gee whiz, let me think on this. Maybe having aircraft destroyed in this manner is not a routine event and AA/UA have no procedures in place. Maybe [...] Maybe [...] Maybe [...] Maybe [...]

You see, I don't want "maybe". I think people in our community don't operate under "maybe" assumption. Maybe my plane will fly? Maybe I have enough fuel? Maybe my aircraft is registered properly? Maybe?...

No - a want clear and precise answers. And in this case, I want to know who violated the FAA Code: FAA itself or UA? That's what I want to know.

Otherwise, maybe we all start flying thinking that "maybe" we have license and valid registration. Why bother with FAA Code in a first place, when we can't follow the rules?
And the procedures to deregister the planes are clear, and no circumstances explain why it took four years to do that.
 
jamesbuk
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:31 am

Just out of interest, as UA was going into Chapter 11, could they have kept them registered to get compensation for lack of earnings from them through no fault of there own? sort of like one of them compensation for injuries. Basically they werent making money off them, so they say hey this isnt our fault, we want compensation from the state for lack of busting this attack?

Is that how it couldve worked?

Rgds --James--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 19):
You see, I don't want "maybe".

I presented a set of "maybe" cases to illustrate that there are any number of simple and entirely reasonable explanations, which you said in your reply#2 is what you wanted. I can't think of an answer that isn't entirely understandable, unless you delve into conspiracies (as you say is NOT your intent...).

Quoting Encore (Reply 19):
No - a want clear and precise answers. And in this case, I want to know who violated the FAA Code: FAA itself or UA? That's what I want to know.

WHY? For what reason do you want to know? What possible answer could arise that would have significance to you? Suppose the answer is "UA filed late"...so what? What action would you propose to take if that's the case???

 redflag I raise the red flag on you and call BS. You say you are not entertaining conspiracies, so what's your interest in this? I repeat my challenge to you: are the late deregistrations of the aircraft involved in 9/11 in any way unique? Are there no other aircraft with similar belated filings? Is it or is it not generally the case that airlines are late with this paperwork? Hmmm???
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):
WHY? For what reason do you want to know? What possible answer could arise that would have significance to you? Suppose the answer is "UA filed late"...so what? What action would you propose to take if that's the case???

I raise the red flag on you and call BS. You say you are not entertaining conspiracies, so what's your interest in this? I repeat my challenge to you: are the late deregistrations of the aircraft involved in 9/11 in any way unique? Are there no other aircraft with similar belated filings? Is it or is it not generally the case that airlines are late with this paperwork? Hmmm???

OK. You can raise the red flag if you don't want to know the truth. You suggest that I'm not entitled to truth ("what's your interest in this", "what reason do you want to know"), and some other say that trying to find a truth would be "a waste of our tax dollars". Well, very interesting thinking... Red flags. What's next? Curse and threats?

C'mon - there's an implication for this: if we can't follow the Code, we need to change it. If someone (whoever) violated the Code - has to answer to that.
I don't care who did it, all I want it to find out *if* the Code had been violated.
But some of members here prefer to brake the Law, or leave it and not talking if the Law has been violated. I don't think it's a good and healthy approach. And I think I may be more entitled to raise the flag for such members who hushing up the breakers.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
OK. You can raise the red flag if you don't want to know the truth.

Since nobody here (myself included) seems to be able to answer the questions to your satisfaction, why don't you just call the FAA at the number that was in the link I provided back in reply 12? If you don't get the answer that you expect, like, or understand, with that (or the fact that the info came from FAA, a "government agency") then consititute additional "evidence" of a conspiracy?  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
encore
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):
are the late deregistrations of the aircraft involved in 9/11 in any way unique? Are there no other aircraft with similar belated filings? Is it or is it not generally the case that airlines are late with this paperwork?

.


That's very interesting question, thanks - that's where we should go to find out what had happened. Anyone here with deregistration experience? Thanks in advance.

[Edited 2006-12-15 21:06:24]
 
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casinterest
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
C'mon - there's an implication for this: if we can't follow the Code, we need to change it. If someone (whoever) violated the Code - has to answer to that.

your assumming code was broken. Why don't you call the FAA to find out.

Perhaps the UA planes were "destroyed" prior to officially cancelling the registrations with written notice.

Maybe AA has yet to do this, and there fore the planes stay in the destroyed category until such time as the registration is canceled.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
if you don't want to know the truth

"the truth" about what, Encore? About a possible code violation?

Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
If someone (whoever) violated the Code - has to answer to that.

Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured? I keep asking, and you don't answer, Encore.

Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
I don't care who did it, all I want it to find out *if* the Code had been violated.

May I suggest you contact your Congressman?

I'll keep asking: is the case of the 9/11 aircraft deregistrations in any way unique? If it's not, then why do you single out this particular case?

You started this thread, sir...I believe there is some responsibility to provide a basis for your posting. You showed that the aircraft deregistrations were late without any context. I'm asking you for context, and lacking effort to provide it I openly question your intent. You say you want the truth, and yet you don't seem to be actively seeking it...
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
encore
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 23):
If you don't get the answer that you expect, like, or understand, with that (or the fact that the info came from FAA, a "government agency") then consititute additional "evidence" of a conspiracy?

If I don't get a clear answer - and I will call them up - it might mean either incompetence, bureaucracy, but Law violation wouldn't be excluded. And if that's the case, we need to find out WHY someone broke the Law. Based on that finding, we can either punish the violator or try to CHANGE the Law, if it's not working. Do you see conspiracy here? I don't.
 
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
Quoting Encore (Reply 22):
If someone (whoever) violated the Code - has to answer to that.

Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured? I keep asking, and you don't answer, Encore.

Now, I really don't understand your approach - it seems that you're trying to minimize what had happened, or planely don't get it. If I follow your thinking, then I shouldn't pay a parking ticket - "Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured?", or register my car - Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured?.
I know someone who was fined because his old car was sitting in his driveway without the license plates. Should he just say: Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured?

You seems to be living in a fantasy of unlawful land. So far, we're in the US where the Law has to be followed.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 27):

If I don't get a clear answer - and I will call them up -

You're obviously not getting your clear answer here--how about just calling them?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
lowrider
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 19):
You see, I don't want "maybe". I think people in our community don't operate under "maybe" assumption. Maybe my plane will fly? Maybe I have enough fuel? Maybe my aircraft is registered properly? Maybe?...

I think you need a little perspective here. Maybe a FAR was violated, but I didn't see any timeline requirement involved in the cancellation of registrations. If United violated a reg, then I am sure the FAA will deal with it, or may have already. Perhaps the violation triggered the cancellation. That is what the FAA is there for. Do you think United runs around with no oversight?

If you are so concerned, have you contacted the FAA? That would be the first logical step. What is your interest? To think, a free, 10 minute phone call would allow you to sleep soundly, knowing that all of United's planes have thier registrations in order.
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EMBQA
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 16):
It's so simple to me - the planes were destroyed on 9/11, why then it had been reported four years later? It's a clear violation of the FAA Code.

Actually, no it's not that simple and black and white. United may have had to legally prove that the planes in question were indeed the planes that were lost that day. Even though its clean to us on the legal side its much deeper then that. As someone that has been involved in scrapping a commercial aircraft, it is a very lenghty and legal process....and VERY defined.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
kalvado
Posts: 482
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:56 am

I just looked up few destroyed plane regs in a database. Few years are not that uncommon; look up N233YV if you want a real violation.
I would assume the only difference there is in taxes and fees; so a few questions:
Is there any link between property taxation on the plane, insurance payments and FAA registration?
What is the registration fee, is it big enough for corporate like UA or AA to worry about?
In other words, would canceling the registration have any financial effect for airline?
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting Encore (Reply 28):
it seems that you're trying to minimize what had happened

Then maximize it for me. Give me a good reason to think there is something here other than an issue over filing of paperwork. If that's all there is, then as a rational person I do minimize it. The "they broke the LAW!" argument doesn't impress me...it's more a case of "they bent an inconsequential REGULATION!"...if they did. Please provide a legal cite to document what code has been violated.

Quoting Encore (Reply 28):
then I shouldn't pay a parking ticket - "Why? What harm has been done? Who has been injured?",

Incorrect. A parking ticket is issued for parking illegally (creating a hazard or nuisance) or failure to pay fees (denial of money due to the jurisdiction). Harm HAS been done in such cases.

Quoting Encore (Reply 28):
or register my car

Likewise incorrect. You owe money. Not paying does harm to the public.

Quoting Encore (Reply 28):
You seems to be living in a fantasy of unlawful land. So far, we're in the US where the Law has to be followed.

Wow...I'll be careful not to tear the tags off my mattress next time. smile 

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 32):
I just looked up few destroyed plane regs in a database. Few years are not that uncommon; look up N233YV if you want a real violation.

 point Thank you! A few years are not that uncommon...so there is nothing unusual about the case of the 9/11 aircraft. Can't be simpler than that.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 17):



Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 21):



Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):



Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 33):

You really like the bold Don't cha  Wink
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 34):
You really like the bold Don't cha

I did not use bold in reply#21, but this one makes up for it.   

[Edited 2006-12-16 03:35:06]
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 32):
In other words, would canceling the registration have any financial effect for airline?

Yes - I think canceling the registration as early as possible would have an immediate positive financial impact. UA would have to pay no property and use tax and registration fees for the aircraft that were lost had these been deregistered right away. It is very likely that UA continued to cover these costs in the years that passed, but my guess is also that UA may recover these costs as soon as the deregistration becomes effective. The date of filing the deregistration may be today, but with an effective date of 9/11 or later.

I simply don't think the time that lapsed has anything to do with violating FAA rules, but rather with conducting a proper investigation and gathering up necessary documentation for e.g. insurance companies ($$ millions at stake). I can't imagine that UA would not file for an extension with the FAA if that was needed or warranted. I do not see either why it should be an issue knowing that taxes, licenses and fees were paid for these aircraft for all these years even though they were not in revenue service. UA's bankrupty protection that came later could also have played a role. It was mentioned earlier, and it only makes sense to take that into consideration too.
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LeanOfPeak
Posts: 496
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RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:05 pm

So the government was able to completely conceal a giant conspiracy foisted upon the American people for some devious reason...

But when it comes to covering up their tracks in their own database, they can't do any better than that?

Surely you jest.
 
levg79
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:59 am

RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:05 pm

Quoting Reyes27 (Reply 14):
i am guessing tax reasons and depreciation

As a tax accountant I can only tell you that if the property does not exist, it cannot be depreciated. Furthermore, UA was in Ch. 11 bankruptcy and the last thing they would need would be to underestimate their earnings and that is exactly what excess depreciation amount does.

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 32):
would assume the only difference there is in taxes and fees

There are no taxes to be paid on the property which does not exist. I would just assumed that they wanted to retain these registrations for whatever reason.

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 36):
I think canceling the registration as early as possible would have an immediate positive financial impact. UA would have to pay no property and use tax and registration fees for the aircraft that were lost had these been deregistered right away.

Property tax is not paid on registration numbers, it is paid on the property that exists. Even if the aircraft is registered but it does not exist, no property tax is paid. In other words, the actual aircraft were taken off the books as soon as they were destroyed (or at least in the quarter they were destroyed). Use tax is not continually paid on owned property. It is paid once when the property was purchased in another sales tax jurisdiction for which sales tax was not paid at the time of the purchase.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: 9-11 Planes Deregistration

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:10 pm

There is a video on youtube that pretty much explains what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=043qG1rdCGw

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