Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:58 pm

Before getting flamed by the usual participants- I try NOT to be mean towards Air France but tend to open a neutral tread on a situation -report with french airlines- like the one opened for Spain.
Today we have a relatively reduced spectre of french aviation -:
-Air France doing well and expanding thanks to the synergies with KLM
(Including the subsidiaries like Britair,Régional,CCM)
-Air Mediterranée a rather niche-carrier spezialised on North/West Africa
-Aigle Azur with focus on Algeria
-Airlineair using ATR 42 and ATR72 for thin domestic flights
-Elysair (still awaiting the DOT licence ) seems doomed before even starting
-Axis ( currently under chapter 11 condition awaiting cash from it's new Israeli share-holders )
-Corsair awaiting re-structuring measured still to be announced by it's mother TUI
-Air Tahiti divorcing from previous ties with Air France

That's basically it
Please write any news or comments ...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
User avatar
Btriple7
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:58 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:32 pm

These Country Aviation Threads are popping up everywhere these days. I'm particularly looking forward to this one as I don't know much about French aviation but would like to know more. I'm mostly interested in news about Air France-KLM.

The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess. It's a very nice airport but far too spread out for connecting.

Regards,
Btriple7
Just...fly.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:45 pm

you can add the other French airlines serving DOM-TOM, although I acknowledge they are "smaller" than TN :
- Air Calin
- Air Austral
- Air Caraïbes
What about star airlines. I know they are now owned by an Islandic group but are they still a France-registered carrier ?
I agree the situation is not very good for airlines in France. The new "French Transavia" announced recently is obviously a good news as there's a real need for charter operations since downsizing of Corsair and bankruptcy of Air Horizons. However, as I said in previous posts, I prefer to have one strong "national" carrier offering excellent service  cloudnine   champagne  thumbsup  rather than 3 or 4 all losing money and offering miserable service  crowded   fever   fight   thumbsdown   vomit  and knowing that even with only one big carrier, there is a strong competition with the foreign airlines, and domestically with the TGV.
 
workhorse
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:46 pm

There's also Twin Jet, flying Beech 1900s on some thin regional routes.

http://www.twinjet.fr/
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
CCM

CCM is not an Air France subsidiary.

CCM is just the "toy" of the Corsica Territorial Assembly, like ATN is for Tahiti, Air Austral for Reunion Island, Air Caraïbes for Guadeloupe & Martinique or AirCalin for New Caledonia.
CCM was just created for political reasons and to "please" and calm down the local "Independance" wishes.

CCM (Compagnie Corse Mediterranée) or Air Corsica is owned by the Territorial Assembly of Corsica (60,3%) + Air France (11,95%) + Bank Credit Agricole (7,55%) + SNCM (6,78%) etc ...

http://www.aircorsica.com/ccm-airlines.html

Back to your topic, you can add to your list the TGV.
I know it's a train, but consideing its power, its speed, network and performances it has to be considered as a major actor of the French Transportation landscape and a direct and terrible competitor of all airlines on short ditances in a relatively small country like France and ironically it is indeed changing all the deal when it comes to talk about the French Aviation.



[Edited 2006-12-16 14:57:47]
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess

Right.
But as long as French Authorities will give priority to the "Look" and to the Achitects delirium, instead of efficiency will have beautiful pieces of Art airport buildings but completely ineffecient ...
Well, that's France !

Actually, it is changing with the terminals 2F, new 2E and satellite S3 at CDG.
 
User avatar
breiz
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:12 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
-Aigle Azur with focus on Algeria

Aigle Azur is a quite old French airline which seems to have survived all crisis, market, ownership, finance or management.
http://www.aigle-azur.fr/
I have always wonder why Aigle Azur has never developed more to become a prominent player in the French market.
I know that we have a say in France, "to live in happiness, one must live hidden", but still.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:56 am

Bothe Aigle Azur and Air Mediterranée have relatively small but reliable and trust-worthy operations.
While Aigle Azur allows sheduled tickets-purchase on line ,Air Med is a pure charter operator.They have both managed to survive in their respective niche -markets and main clients like Point Afrique and FRAM are responsible for the survival of both companies.
Star Airlines has become an Islandic owned company and their future and market is still somewhat sketchy.Knowing the islandic love for wet-leases,I presume their aircraft will become gap-fillers for foreign operators.
Still one remark to Elysair - their operation based on a single 757 leased from Condor seems in jeopardy,since the approval for the service into EWR from ORY has not been granted so far by the DOT. That is an amazing hick-up,considering the experience the airline's CEO,Marc Rochet ,has in French aviation.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
considering the experience the airline's CEO,Marc Rochet ,has in French aviation.

Well, I can understand why the Authoritues are reluctant to give all the approval when you consider the "experience" of Marc Rochet and the results of all the airlines he managed :  tombstone 
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:05 am

I do hope this is French Aviation Thread #1 (of many) Big grin Welcome to the national aviation club along with Irish, Indian, Scottish, and others!
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:26 am

The list of rotten individuals in French aviation is very long -
Marc Rochet ( AOM,Air Lib,Air Littoral,Minerve,Euralair - all defunct airlines ..)
Jean Claude Corbet ( Air Lib ,Holco..)
Marc Dufour (Air Littoral ,now politician..)
Cédric Pastour (Star Airlines,Angelgate )
Jean-Marie Gras (L-Air )
Erik de Vlieger (Air Liberté )
and I certainly forget some other distinguished individuals.
Truth is that some capable managers have to suffer from the bad image French aviation has in business-circles.The managers of Air France,Airlineair,Aigle Azur,Air Med,Air Tahiti or Corsair do a good job in defending their companies interests and run them very professionally.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess. It's a very nice airport but far too spread out for connecting.

CDG is no more a mess for connection then LHR or FRA or some of the bigest US airports!!!
Flying is amazing!
 
Humberside
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:44 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Star Airlines has become an Islandic owned company and their future and market is still somewhat sketchy.Knowing the islandic love for wet-leases,I presume their aircraft will become gap-fillers for foreign operators

Now part of the British XL Leisure Group and being renamed XL Airlines France. Avion, the Icelandic owners you refer too sold out a couple of months ago
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 12):
Now part of the British XL Leisure Group and being renamed XL Airlines France. Avion, the Icelandic owners you refer too sold out a couple of months ago

You are absolutely right - I missed that point although I read about it -sorry for the wrong statement...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 11):
CDG is no more a mess for connection then LHR or FRA or some of the bigest US airports!!!

I agree that LHR is as "messy" as CDG ... but CDG is indeed a mess ! especially with the problem of all those remote parking stands you don't find at LHR or FRA.

CDG is perfect when you board your flight from Paris. For this, it is the best airport in the world, with the shortest walking distance from the entrance of the terminal to your plane, particularly at the Terminals 2A/B/C/D because that 's what they were conceived for.

But when you use CDG as a transit HUB, as AF does, it is a tremendous challenge everyday, believe me, and people don't imagine the work AF does everyday to minimize all those inconvinients...
Moreover, all the airlines using CDG including AF are tributary of ADP ... and ADP's effiency is not always "optimum" ...  duck 
 
rootsair
Posts: 4012
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 3):
There's also Twin Jet, flying Beech 1900s on some thin regional routes.

http://www.twinjet.fr/

with that fleet i always thought the name twinjet was misleading !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
you can add to your list the TGV.

That's really a good competition for AF. When you can cover something like 1000km in three hours from city center to city center, without having to make your way to the airport, through security check, and so on. I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

not really: a full fare would be equivalent to a normal airline Y fare
but there are so many reductions: family, old people, students etc etc that you can TGV for really cheap
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
User avatar
Btriple7
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:58 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):


Quoting FlySSC:
you can add to your list the TGV.

That's really a good competition for AF. When you can cover something like 1000km in three hours from city center to city center, without having to make your way to the airport, through security check, and so on. I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

I agree. Except for maybe Japan, France has the best domestic train network in the world. AF should probably stick to the international markets. SNCF has its feet firmly planted on the ground in France. AF would be no match to this company.

Regards,
Btriple7
Just...fly.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5186
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

That's the problem for airlines, including AF : The TGV is offering very good fares ... a TGV ticket PARIS-MARSEILLE starts at 19€ one way, all taxes included... But even full fare is much lower than a full fare air ticket, that's the main reason why low cost airlines are not present that much on the French domestic market, except on PARIS-NICE, where the TGV is not a good competitor as it takes more than 5 hours.
But it's now 1h50 on Paris-LYON, 3h on Paris-Marseille, and it will start on Paris-Strasbourg next spring ...
 
User avatar
Btriple7
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:58 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:11 am

Also, the TGV website is light years ahead of any airline website I've ever seen.

Regards,
Btriple7
Just...fly.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 17):

Thanks.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 18):
France has the best domestic train network in the world

Perhaps on the TGV side...

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 18):
SNCF has its feet firmly planted on the ground in France

... but don't go too fast for the rest of the network. An audit has been conducted by Swiss EPFL, and it appears that if the network is continuously maintained as it is today, by 2025 60% of it should be shut down, and almost only the high speed lines would remain in service.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
a TGV ticket PARIS-MARSEILLE starts at 19€ one way

 eyepopping 

Regards

[Edited 2006-12-16 22:19:39]
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:27 am

But it will take RFF another 12 years to bring the TGV-rail-track from Nîmes to Perpignan-they talk about the stretch to Spain since 25 years....
The thread is nevertheless about aviation-even if the TGV is a great tool-it's part of a state-subsidized infrastructure .
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Air Tahiti divorcing from previous ties with Air France

Why is that ? You mean TN ?
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 22):
TGV is a great tool-it's part of a state-subsidized infrastructure

Oh yeah?? and ATC in france is a private company? it's 100% public money and you know it
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
goldorak
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 23):
Why is that ? You mean TN ?

yes. Beaucaire is right saying that TN & AF have "declared war". Code-sharing on CDG-LAX-PPT has been stopped since the beginning of the current winter season. AF has incresed frequency on LAX-PPT to fight more against TN.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 25):
AF has incresed frequency on LAX-PPT to fight more against TN.

AF didn't like it so much that TN decided to develop a "hub" in PPT with public subsidies...therefore the war
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
User avatar
breiz
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:12 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:32 am

Any update on "L'avion", well Elysair or what ever?
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting Breiz (Reply 27):
Any update on "L'avion",

I am surprised to see US DOT has supposedly not given the green light....
sales have started www.lavion.fr

I can't wait to see the purple 757 at ORY!!
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
foxxray
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 5:06 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:30 pm

L'Avion will take delivery of the 757 (F-HAVN) this afternoon at ORY...
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:35 pm

Don't forget Europe Airpost as well ! I admit we don't hear much about them.
Along with their freight activity, they operate passenger charter flights using a fleet of 12 737-300QCs.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rafael Álvarez Cacho

 
Toulouse
Posts: 2193
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:44 pm

Great to see a French aviation thread. I really enjoy the very successful Irish aviation threads, and as an Irish citizen living in France for the past 4 years now, I will be very interested in this thread. Good luck and long live the French Aviation Thread!

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 11):
CDG is no more a mess for connection then LHR or FRA or some of the bigest US airports!!!

To be honest, give me CDG over LHR any day! I don't honestly understand the problem so many people have with CDG, I like it and find it very user friendly (yet I do admit CDG1 should just be rebuilt from zero). When living in Spain and before there were so many direction air connections between Spain and Ireland (and today there is an enormouse number of flights), I usually opeted to fly AF from MAD to DUB via CDG and never had a problem. A year ago, as a loyal EI customer and since they recently dropped TLS-DUB for the winter, I booked AF TLS-CDG and EI CDG-DUB. Now EI use CDG1. On my return flight I only had a 55 minute connection between the arrival of my EI flight into CDG1 and my AF departure from CDG2 for TLS. Luckily EI had booked my luggage straight through to TLS (even though I was on separate tickets) -and the luggage arrived in TLS on the intended flight, and the kind EI woman at DUB when she saw my tight connection and as she couldn't issue me with my AF boarding pass, send me to AF ticket sales at DUB who issue dmy boarding pass. We arrived in CDG2 5 minutes ahead of schedule, and disembarked with only 45 minutes nevertheless until my departure for TLS. I took the airside coach, and made it in time to even have a cup of coffee before my TLS flight departed on time. So you see, with a bit of cop, it's easy to transfer at CDG.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20):
Also, the TGV website is light years ahead of any airline website I've ever seen.

Thanks for the link, I had never seen that one, always just used www.sncf.com.

When i have time later I'll post some more on my own issues with my local airport (TLS) and also some comments on Bordeaux and Carcasonne, other provincial French airport I frequent.

A bientôt tout le monde!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
gbfra
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:50 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:26 am

Given that there are only a limited number of large agglomerations in France (in fact there is only one large one, Paris), and

given the strong competition from AF and he TGV

it appears quite normal that there is only a place for small niche-players.

Marc Rochet has been blamed more than once on this forum. His problem was that he attempted to be more than a small niche-player more than once. There he failed.

But he wasn't the only one to fail. Remember that Air Liberté was once owned by British Airways and it didn't work either. The merger of Air Liberté and AOM in 2000 was a desperate attempt to save things and it failed too.

Swissair was once an important shareholder of Air Littoral. Air Littoral went down a couple of years later.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 32):
(in fact there is only one large one, Paris)

wrong: MRS and LYS are number 2 and 3 cities in France are quite large.

The thing is that Paris Lyon Marseille are linked together by High Speed TGV: the main line starting in Paris ends up in Marseille 3 hours after....after having crossed Lyon: tough to follow for airlines!
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
gbfra
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:50 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:00 am

Alright, Marseille and Lyon have more than one million inhabitants respectively, if you are including the regions around (the city of Lyon has only 465 000 inhabitants, Marseille about 800 000 according to wiki), but compared to Ile-de-France...

Anyway your main point is correct, of course. The TGV is an important competitor there.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:12 am

Gbfra
richtig, ile-de-france is a monster of soon 12 million people if you follow the last estimates...and from the center of Ile de France you connect with TGV to nearly anywhere in metropolitan France
Strasbourg and close Germany will be amongst the last targets to be reached: this will again divert people from airplanes to trains
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
gbfra
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:50 am

RE: The French Aviation -where Are We Today?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:23 am

You are right.

I'm travelling Frankfurt-Paris quite often (I've lived in Paris for nine years). At the moment I choose the airplane because the train is simply not competetive. But if it takes only three hours from Frankfurt to Paris by train, well, things will be different.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by