LHRjc
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London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:07 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6189193.stm

Quote: "Planning applications have been submitted for a new passenger terminal and extended runway at a Kent airport.
The proposals are for London Ashford Airport, at Lydd, to accommodate 500,000 passengers a year and offer flights further afield than presently."

Firstly, how on earth can Lydd airport be called London Ashford when it must be at least 70 miles from London ?

I can't see how they are going to attract 500,000 passengers initially, building up to 2,000,000. When they redeveloped MSE (Kent International / Manston) things looked promising, but EUJet soon folded and there are now only limited charters from there. I know Lydd is 30 odd miles from Manston but can the catchment area really be that different ?

Quote:
"The proposed £3m runway extension - from 1,505m (4,938ft) to 1,799m (5,902ft) - would mean planes carrying a greater fuel load and therefore being able to reach a greater range of destinations."

What would be the maximum size aircraft that could use a 5,900ft runway ?

Not really knowing a great deal about the area, does anyone see this being a success ?

JC
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Vasu
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:21 pm

Too far from London. A few years ago, Kent lost the oppurtunity to have Cliffe airport, which would have been so much better an option... shame.
 
cardiffairtaxi
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Thread starter):
Firstly, how on earth can Lydd airport be called London Ashford when it must be at least 70 miles from London ?

I can't see how they are going to attract 500,000 passengers initially, building up to 2,000,000. When they redeveloped MSE (Kent International / Manston) things looked promising, but EUJet soon folded and there are now only limited charters from there. I know Lydd is 30 odd miles from Manston but can the catchment area really be that different ?

Quote:
"The proposed £3m runway extension - from 1,505m (4,938ft) to 1,799m (5,902ft) - would mean planes carrying a greater fuel load and therefore being able to reach a greater range of destinations."

What would be the maximum size aircraft that could use a 5,900ft runway ?

Not really knowing a great deal about the area, does anyone see this being a success ?

JC

I think Ryanair might disagree with you there!Same country,South East,and people talk with more or less the same accent!
 
LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Cardiffairtaxi (Reply 2):
I think Ryanair might disagree with you there!Same country,South East,and people talk with more or less the same accent!

 rotfl  I was waiting for that, and only the 2nd reply - good going  Smile
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cardiffairtaxi
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 3):

I think its roughly the same as Ryanair "Barcelona" (gerona) in distance,from the actual named city.
If Ashford gets the "London" tag,will Beauvais become the new Kent International???
 
LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:02 pm

Looking at the airport's website www.lydd-airport.co.uk the only destination served by this airport at the moment is Le Toucquet so FR could probably make a few routes work from Brighton (Lydd)  Smile
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Kevin777
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Thread starter):
"The proposed ?3m runway extension - from 1,505m (4,938ft) to 1,799m (5,902ft) - would mean planes carrying a greater fuel load and therefore being able to reach a greater range of destinations."



Quoting LHRjc (Thread starter):
What would be the maximum size aircraft that could use a 5,900ft runway ?

]

In Denmark the airport in Odense (ODE) is expanding to 1.799 meters in order to accomodate the 737-800; probably loking at luring FR and maybe a few charters from Sterling. Sems like this could also be the case here (luring FR)

Kevin777
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LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 6):
In Denmark the airport in Odense (ODE) is expanding to 1.799 meters in order to accomodate the 737-800; probably loking at luring FR and maybe a few charters from Sterling. Sems like this could also be the case here (luring FR)

Interesting, sounds like you could be right. Maybe KLc could also make an AMS feeder route using an F50 work, or some short FlyBe hops across to France.

It will be certainly interesting to see what becomes of "London" Ashford.

JC
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aerarann
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:35 am

The perfect market for RE to enter

London Ashford - Belfast, Dublin, Cork & L'Orient
 
Danny
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting AerArann (Reply 8):
The perfect market for RE to enter

London Ashford - Belfast, Dublin, Cork & L'Orient

I recently counted 48 flights A DAY between Dublin and London. Do we really need more?
 
LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
I recently counted 48 flights A DAY between Dublin and London. Do we really need more?

I may be wrong but I think the nearest airport to Lydd (sorry London Ashford) that offers flights to DUB is LGW which is 75 miles by road, mostly A roads too. Maybe there could be a big enough catchment aread in southern Kent / Sussex to make this work ?

[Edited 2006-12-18 16:50:07]
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Humberside
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:44 am

The airport seems to have very high ambitions. I think they would be far better off trying to get a Channel Islands flight next with either Lydd Air or Blue Islands and take things from there. They need to prove there is a market for flights other than to Le Tourquet. Then they can perhaps go after services such as Dublin and Amsterdam

Kent Int Airport is also going to have a big impact on Lydd's plans - I dont think if MSE got say a DUB flight, Lydd would also be able to support one, at least in the short term. And in terms of catchment size, MSE is far more attractive than Lydd
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LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 11):
Kent Int Airport is also going to have a big impact on Lydd's plans - I dont think if MSE got say a DUB flight, Lydd would also be able to support one, at least in the short term. And in terms of catchment size, MSE is far more attractive than Lydd

 checkmark  Agreed

Didn't MSE use to have a flight to DUB with EUJet before they went bankrupt last year ?

Apart from the new ZB flight to the US is there any likelihood of any new routes from MSE in the foreseeable future ?

JC
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SNATH
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 1):
Too far from London.

A "quick and dirty" distance calculation shows that Lydd-London is roughly the same distance as Hahn-Frankfurt. And Ryanair does advertise the latter as "Frankfurt Hahn".

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LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 13):
A "quick and dirty" distance calculation shows that Lydd-London is roughly the same distance as Hahn-Frankfurt. And Ryanair does advertise the latter as "Frankfurt Hahn".

True, but I'd imagine it's easier to market Hahn as Frankfurt than it would be marketing Lydd as London Ashford, as Lydd is stuck out on the coast with quite a small catchment area, whereas Hahn looks to be in a larger more land locked catchment area.

That said, I guess to be spending millions of pounds on runway extensions and airport improvements, I'd hope that the authorities and investors have done their homework !

JC
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Humberside
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 12):
Didn't MSE use to have a flight to DUB with EUJet before they went bankrupt last year ?

Yes

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 12):
Apart from the new ZB flight to the US is there any likelihood of any new routes from MSE in the foreseeable future ?

PMI and ALC are new charter routes for Kent Escapes, although BCN is dropped (so overall gain of one weekly flight, plus Monarch)
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LHRjc
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 15):

I still find it hard to understand why Kent's only 2 international airports of Lydd and Manston (I'm counting Biggin Hill as London even though it's in Kent, and hoping I haven't forgotten any others) find it so hard to attract custom. Sure, LGW, LHR and even STN are within easy reach of people in places like Bromley, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and such areas, but surely people down in Dover, Ramsgate, Ashford etc must want / need to fly without driving 70 - 80 miles to the airport. Sure the Eurostar and the ferries can take them to France, Belgium etc but barring a few holiday charters from MSE there's not a great deal else for them to choose from. Maybe this is what the operators at Lydd are counting on...

Looking back in the photo database there's loads of pictures of 707's and DC8's of various African outfits at MSE, so I presume there used to be a market there, so why not now ?

A little off topic but is MSE still seeing a lot of cargo flights ?

JC
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Vasu
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:27 am

What I think Lydd and/or Manston need are the BIG holiday companies basing a plane there. I mean, when someone books a package holiday, they usually get very little say as to what flight they're booked on... So why not "force" some of the locals into one of the Kent airports?
 
N1120A
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting LHRjc (Thread starter):
What would be the maximum size aircraft that could use a 5,900ft runway ?

757s can easily
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iclcy
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:07 am

If the high speed commuter services linking Ashford - Ebbsfleet - Stratford - St Pancras/Kings Cross running alongside the new Eurostar tracks get approval the area should see quite a lot of growth.
 
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Vasu
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
757s can easily

Lydd - New York? I'm sure CO could do that... Big grin

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 19):
high speed commuter services linking Ashford - Ebbsfleet - Stratford - St Pancras/Kings Cross

If I could hop on the train from Ebbsfleet to Ashford, I'd be on that flight!
 
willo
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 19):
If the high speed commuter services linking Ashford - Ebbsfleet - Stratford - St Pancras/Kings Cross running alongside the new Eurostar tracks get approval the area should see quite a lot of growth.

The commuter trains are being built at the moment, the line opens next year.

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 5):
Brighton (Lydd)

Does Brighton need two airports?  Smile
 
art
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Thread starter):
Firstly, how on earth can Lydd airport be called London Ashford when it must be at least 70 miles from London ?

Yes, Calais in France is closer to Lydd than London is. Any takers for Calais- Ashford?

[Edited 2006-12-20 12:22:32]

[Edited 2006-12-20 12:23:51]
 
HT
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 16):
Looking back in the photo database there's loads of pictures of 707's and DC8's of various African outfits at MSE, so I presume there used to be a market there, so why not now ?

Freighters !
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Rj111
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:00 pm

Seems a ridiculous place to devlop.

It has no major infrastucutre, no major road and not even a rail connection to London. It is in the corner of the country and is interestingly slap bang next to a nuclear power station. The only two towns it would really catch is Hastings and Ashford and it's not much further to LGW for either of those. It's also a pretty awful part of the country.

Developing MSE seems a much more sensible idea to me. It has a much higher catchment population.

[Edited 2006-12-20 14:29:58]
 
Banco
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 10):
Maybe there could be a big enough catchment aread in southern Kent / Sussex to make this work ?

Nope. Lydd's completely inaccessible from most of Sussex. Put it this way, I live in mid-Sussex, and when I visit my parents in East Kent, the only reasonable route is to go up the M23 (past Gatwick), along the M25/M26 and down the M20. Going cross country would take about 3 hours.

Even in Kent, there's only one trunk route down to it from Ashford. For the coastal towns of East Kent, it involves following the A259 through Dover, Folkestone, Hythe and New Romney. Sod that.

The fundamental problem with all the ideas for Kent airports is that for the area of the county where the bulk of the population is, Gatwick and Stansted are just as easy, if not easier to get to. There simply isn't the critical mass for either Manston or Lydd.

And as RJ111 points out, Dungeness Power Station is just a few miles away. Now, Dungeness B is meant to be designed to withstand an aircraft strike (anyone care to test it?) but it's presence always did hamper any possibility of growth.
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Vasu
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 24):
Developing MAS seems a much more sensible idea to me

Agreed. Plus, MSE already has one of the largest runways in the UK, plenty of room for expansion and experience in running proper airline operations!
 
Banco
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting Vasu (Reply 26):
plenty of room for expansion and experience in running proper airline operations!

Yes, and have always failed for the same reason. Kent's population isn't big enough to support a major airport when you have two close at hand in Essex and Sussex. Nor will people come out from London to fly from there.

The condition of the airfield is irrelevant. Airlines don't fly from there because they can't make any money. So they stay as tertiary airfields.

If you want to shut down LGW and STN, then it might have a chance.
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Vir744
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:32 pm

What makes me laugh about Lydd is the "LAA" signs with a BAA style logo splashed all around the terminal - ah bless!

Shoreham is getting similar, the way they run it (particularly noticeable when moving around "airside"), is the apparent Heathrow wannabe attitude.

And as for having to wear hi-vis jackets when walking to your aircraft... Its one thing to do it at Gatwick etc where there are lots of movements, both aircraft and nutters in baggage tractors, but sleepy Shoreham?

Still better get down off my soap box now!
 
Humberside
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:14 pm

Lydd has been busy handling diversions recently - mainly business jets but also Euromanx (info from pprune)
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zvezda
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:47 pm

If ABZ were to be renamed London Aberdeen, would the airport be able to support more traffic to more destinations?

 Silly
 
gigneil
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30):
If ABZ were to be renamed London Aberdeen, would the airport be able to support more traffic to more destinations?

I'm not sure... it doesn't really help Manston all that much.  Smile

NS
 
CRJ900
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:54 pm

Is STN close to reaching its max capacity soon, so that FR and EZY have no choice but to consider MSE, or is that still many years away yet?
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gigneil
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:58 pm

I have personally waited 2 hours in the immigration line at STN... I dunno if the airport itself is at capacity or just the Home Office.

NS
 
Banco
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RE: London Ashford Set For Expansion

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
I have personally waited 2 hours in the immigration line at STN... I dunno if the airport itself is at capacity or just the Home Office.

Mate, I've done the same at US airports. A truism of travel is that immigration are evil gits the world over.  Wink
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