LY777
Topic Author
Posts: 2281
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:32 am

Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?
What are the figures for both manufacturers for the time being?
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:41 am

With Boeing ahead It looks like they will, but then thats exactly what said this time last year  Smile
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
With Boeing ahead It looks like they will, but then thats exactly what said this time last year

It depends on when Airbus says the year ends. 2005 ended on January 20 something according to them!  Wink
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

Boeing should easily outsell Airbus again in terms of value, and so far looks to outsell Airbus in terms of raw frames.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:09 am

In a word yes, well done B!

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 2):

It depends on when Airbus says the year ends. 2005 ended on January 20 something according to them!

Yawn, even if they did cheat at the begining of this year (which they didn't) they couldn't make 2006 any longer than a year as they'd of already stolen the first 20 days of it
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 2):
It depends on when Airbus says the year ends. 2005 ended on January 20 something according to them!


Do you mean the chinese A320s? My understanding is that they were just dished out to the various airlines in january, but the order was actually signed in Dec?
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
Do you mean the chinese A320s? My understanding is that they were just dished out to the various airlines in january, but the order was actually signed in Dec?

It doesn't really matter how they try to skew the numbers. Boeing have outsold Airbus in widebodies by almost 4 to 1 so far. If they still come out and beat Boeing, the counting will have been done by Arthur Andersen and Andrew Fastow. And yes, it had nothing to do with the shares sold by Mr. Forgeard!!!  Wink
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?
What are the figures for both manufacturers for the time being?

Wait the year hasn´t finished yet, airbus has some LOI firmed and maybe as last year we will see Airbus coming the 27 of December with 100 320 bought from China ... but the most possible is that B wins this year ...

I say you , the next year will be the most interesting with an big LH , BA , CX , EK ,AF/KL, IB and maybe UA ,AA and US order .
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
airtran737
Posts: 3222
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

In theory yes, but remember Airbus adds orders to the previous year in mid January. Apparently the calendar in Toulouse is 13 months long. Seriously though, it looks like B will take the order contest this year, but A will still have the deliveries.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 7):
It doesn't really matter how they try to skew the numbers.

Well if the order is signed in dec its hardly skewed is it. Its either yes or no.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 9):
In theory yes, but remember Airbus adds orders to the previous year in mid January. Apparently the calendar in Toulouse is 13 months long.

Whether or not that happened last year, it can't happen this year unless they wait until February. After all, Jan 17th 2006 to Jan 17th 2007 is still only 12 months.

We are already seeing both airlines eek out some top up orders in December. 4 here, 3 there, 2 somewhere else. It's all about turning the screws on the LoI's and trying to get the last sales together. But right now, Boeing's Firm total is just barely below the Airbus Firm+Pending total, which makes it very hard for Airbus to catch up without new orders.

There will also likely be some last minute larger orders, like 25-75 737s and A320s at the last minute. But Airbus is going to need 200+ last minute new orders, firmed, like last December to "win."

We'll see how it shakes out. Only 10 days left...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 9):
Seriously though, it looks like B will take the order contest this year, but A will still have the deliveries.

Yes, and Airbus will have the most deliveries again in 2007. Boeing will take the delivery win in 2008.
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:27 am

Is the Pope, catholic?  yes 

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

 checkmark 
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 8):
I say you , the next year will be the most interesting with an big LH , BA , CX , EK ,AF/KL, IB and maybe UA ,AA and US order .

Didn't LH just order 20 747-8i with option for 20 more? That seems pretty big.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 17):
You maybe, but not me.

It is OK Thorben. We understand how hard it is for you to accept the fact that Boeing will soon regain the title as the #1 commercial airliner manufacturer in the world and that Airbus will keep slipping further behind.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 19):
Boeing will soon regain the title as the #1 commercial airliner manufacturer in the world

I think that title will remain with Airbus this year, in terms of numbers of frames delivered. They are doing everything they can to raise production rates. Boeing will take the honours in terms of the value of aircraft delivered, as they did last year - I would expect the value split to be around 35% Airbus, 65% Boeing.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
Do you mean the chinese A320s? My understanding is that they were just dished out to the various airlines in january, but the order was actually signed in Dec?

The 'order' was announced in January, but may well not have been completely firmed up with airlines even yet. As I understand the Chinese deal announced last year, and the one this year, amount to 'import licences' - the Government authorises X number of imported aircraft, but it is still up to Airbus to find and firm up the deals with individual airlines. Boeing also had 150 X 737 Chinese Government 'orders' of this sort last year, but did not count them as 'firm' for 2006 - indeed, at a guess, not all of them are yet shown on Boeing's Orders site. Boeing are only entering them up as 'firm' when an individual airline signs up.

Worth mentioning, too, that the most recent 150 X A320 order is not a 'normal' one in any case. The deal is conditional on Airbus establishing a factory in China at which the aircraft will be assembled. Besides the high up-front capital cost, Airbus will have to share the profits with the Chinese partner. So that deal is unlikely to be as profitable as a normal 150-plane order.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:25 am

Quote:
Clouds were already gathering on Jan. 17, as Airbus announced 1,111 orders for 2005 - a new industry record - to Boeing's 1,002. Measured by catalogue value, Airbus had lost its market leadership to Boeing, as its order share fell to 45 per cent from 54 per cent in 2004.

Based on orders so far, Airbus is set to fall behind Boeing's full-year tally for the first time since 2000, as its share of new business by value extends its slide to about 37 per cent.

http://www.canada.com/topics/finance...8ce-46bb-8203-9ebd3114a0e1&k=26052
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
Worth mentioning, too, that the most recent 150 X A320 order is not a 'normal' one in any case. The deal is conditional on Airbus establishing a factory in China at which the aircraft will be assembled. Besides the high up-front capital cost, Airbus will have to share the profits with the Chinese partner. So that deal is unlikely to be as profitable as a normal 150-plane order.

Although we don't know all the details NAV20, I suspect both 150 plane orders are contingent on this assembly facility in China. 300 A320s out of what? A 1400 plane backlog? That's fairly significant; greater than 20%.

[Edited 2006-12-20 01:32:03]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
indeed, at a guess, not all of them are yet shown on Boeing's Orders site. Boeing are only entering them up as 'firm' when an individual airline signs up.

The remainder were firmed up in the first half of 2006.

And notice also the three canceled 787s. Boeing lists them as canceled because the airline is not going to take them, even though the 3 "rights to buy" are still held by China. They may be reallocated at a later date. But to be as transparent as possible, they are listed as canceled as soon as the action was taken.

This is of course in contrast to various A350 orders at Airbus that are worthless and should be removed, as they are contracted for a plane that has been canceled (the original A350). If orders are signed for the new A350X, even with the same carriers, that's great, it should be a net of zero, but listed as cancel and new order. The A350 and A350X are not the same plane in any way. It's really no different than the 757-300s that CO canceled and the 737-800s they ordered in return a few years back, or when FL was asked to cancel 717s in return for more 73Gs. It may have been a fair swap, but that doesn't mean the cancelations don't go on the books.

I believe Airbus is going to wait and see which works best for them. If they can win this year (and they will know on Jan 5), expect those old A350s to stay on the books (so the net figure is higher). But if they can't win this year, expect some or all of them to go as net cancelations in 2006 to bolster next year, so that new A350X contracts count as a net positive order in 2007. If Airbus thinks they have a good chance of winning a large part of the 772ER replacement orders next year, they may want to eat the cancelations now to help with the "resurgence" of Airbus in 2007. And they can also make the 2006 total press release in mid-January look good by explaining they took a net reduction on the old A350 but expect to rebook most of those orders for the A350X in the coming months...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:39 am

My opinion to the lead q is Boeing will outsell them this year, next year and probably the year after that. We have the 787 coming on line as well as a slew of 737's in different sizes. Airbus has a problem bird which is costing them lots of their money and their governments money, too. The A350 is very slow to move in sales and the airlines said no to the A318 and A321(low sales).
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 22):
300 A320s out of what? A 1400 plane backlog?

Not quite that bad, Lumberton - the EADS site claims that the backlog at end November was 2,389. But you're right in principle, that figure includes 100-odd 'old new' A350s which even EADS admits are now liabilities rather than assets - and 300 A320s to China which may also now be liabilities, given the likely low margin on A320 sales and the capital and start-up costs of the China plant.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
But if they can't win this year, expect some or all of them to go as net cancelations in 2006 to bolster next year, so that new A350X contracts count as a net positive order in 2007.

I doubt we'll live to see the day when Airbus follows Boeing's lead and quotes 'net' order totals, Ikramerica. On past form, Airbus (and even EADS) are likely to go on showing the current 'old new' A350 figures, and just ADD any XWB orders to the 'A350' total.......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
I doubt we'll live to see the day when Airbus follows Boeing's lead and quotes 'net' order totals, Ikramerica.

They did in 2006. Go back and check.

Airbus beat Boeing on net orders by counting the entire China order. Had Boeing accounted for China in the same manner, they would have "won" the race, and if Airbus had done so, Boeing also would have "won" the race. There is no rational way to parse it otherwise. Airbus used a completely different metric (by a different burden of proof) in their mid-Jan announcement but didn't even have the class add a footnote describing the discrepancy that they were 100% aware of and consciously manufactured...

Airbus was measuring in "Kelvin" Boeing was measuring in "Celsius" and Airbus didn't point that out during all their self-congratulations and bragging, plain and simple.

Or to use another analogy, Airbus benefited from a staggered start on a running track with no curves in it...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
drexotica
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:44 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:58 am

If you review the Boeing O and D pages, factor in the average list prices of a model, the total approximate value at list prices (through the end of November) is $85.27 billion.

This does not include the Lufthansa 748 order, etc.

Last year as I recall, their order book was near $110 billion at list prices.

[Edited 2006-12-20 03:00:40]
N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
 
monteycarlos
Posts: 2018
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:36 pm

I maintain that Boeing should re-open the 727 line! Then they would definately outsell Airbus.  Wink
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:41 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?
What are the figures for both manufacturers for the time being?

In my mind, it does not matter one bit. What we have here is a duopoly, and therefore niether party will take more than 50% in the long run. OTOH, if another manufacturer were to come along, now that would be interesting.

iwok
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:57 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):

Besides, isn't it "outsell" instead of "outsale"?

Does it matter really?

Boeing won! Both in frames and value. Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:02 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 9):
Seriously though, it looks like B will take the order contest this year, but A will still have the deliveries.

Yes, and Airbus will have the most deliveries again in 2007. Boeing will take the delivery win in 2008.

That still remains to be seen.

A300F- Airbus studying the possibility not closing the line in mid 2007.
A32X - Ramp up to 36-40 frames per month.
A330/340 - Ramp up to 8+ per month.
A380- 13 frames expected to be delivered in 2008.


I'm sorry Zvezda, but I would only expect to see Boeing taking the lead in terms of deliveies after 2010.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):

I think that title will remain with Airbus this year, in terms of numbers of frames delivered. They are doing everything they can to raise production rates. Boeing will take the honours in terms of the value of aircraft delivered, as they did last year - I would expect the value split to be around 35% Airbus, 65% Boeing.

You are correct that Boeing will win hands down in terms of order value in 2006, but I don't think that it will not be anything around the 35%-65% in terms of delivery value.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 24):
The A350 is very slow to move in sales and the airlines said no to the A318 and A321(low sales).

Well Airbus has listed the following numbers for 2006.

A318- 4
A321-104


While the A318 is sure a slower selling frame, Your quote for the A321 is just plain incorrect. 104 frames sold in 11 months is pretty good in my eyes.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
jdevora
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:41 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
The 'order' was announced in January,

The order was announced at the beginning of December CASGC signs agreement for largest ever Chinese order with purchase of 150 A320 Family aircraft

There was a thread here about it as well China To Order 150 A320 Posted Sun Dec 4 2005 20:28:41 UTC+1
 
UALMMFlyer
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:42 pm

I am still not sure if the order numbers are that meaningful. It appears both manufacturers measure their order numbers differently, and rightly so.

I am actually more concerned with delivery. Judging from the the backlog numbers, any production issue can have significant effect financially and operationally. Remember that revenue is only realized when aircrafts are delivered; however work-in-progress inventories are already showing on the balance sheet.
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 26):
You are correct that Boeing will win hands down in terms of order value in 2006, but I don't think that it will not be anything around the 35%-65% in terms of delivery value.

Airbus share 'at list prices' confirmed at 36%-37% by one J. Leahy in November, WINGS:-

"Leahy said Airbus had taken firm orders for 619 planes so far this year, or 43 percent of the two rivals' combined total. Airbus continues to target a market share between 40 percent and 60 percent, he said.

"In terms of catalog value, however, he acknowledged that Airbus' share of new business had slipped further to reach "35 to 37 percent" this year. While Airbus has been ahead in the single-aisle plane market, thanks to the popularity of its A320, Boeing increasingly dominates the higher-value market for larger aircraft."


http://www.boston.com/business/artic...irbus_shares_of_new_orders_shrink/
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 2):
It depends on when Airbus says the year ends. 2005 ended on January 20 something according to them!

Hi Flysherwood, Airbus traditionally book all their orders from January 1st through to December 31st. They hold their Media conference to confirm the previous years sales usually in the second or third week of January, where they also provide a market outlook and guidance for the year ahead.

To see the dates, refer to the link below, you may need a log in;

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/pressreleases/

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
After all, Jan 17th 2006 to Jan 17th 2007 is still only 12 months.

Respectfully, it is a year, though it is not Jan 17 to Jan 17. It's Jan 1 to Dec 31. If the former were the case Airbus would have included 18 orders booked as follows in their 2005 sales tally;

Undisclosed customer: 9 x A320 & 5 x A321 Booked Jan 2nd, 2006
ILFC: 2 x A358 & 2 x A359 Booked Jan 10, 2006

Those orders are included in this years totals confirmation that they go Jan 1st through to Dec 31. As does Boeing.

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/orders_and_deliveries/

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
We are already seeing both airlines eek out some top up orders in December. 4 here, 3 there, 2 somewhere else. It's all about turning the screws on the LoI's and trying to get the last sales together. But right now, Boeing's Firm total is just barely below the Airbus Firm+Pending total, which makes it very hard for Airbus to catch up without new orders.

 checkmark 

A salient point as evidenced by TUI, KQ, QR & NZ for Boeing and now SQ, LH and SilkAir for Airbus we are seeing more of those orders emerge. With more to come, IMHO.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Do you mean the chinese A320s? My understanding is that they were just dished out to the various airlines in january, but the order was actually signed in Dec?

Different Regulatory, Accounting and Corporate Structures came into play here and it has been debated over the course of the year. Fact is, as Jdevora correctly points outs below;

Quoting Jdevora (Reply 27):
The order was announced at the beginning of December CASGC signs agreement for largest ever Chinese order with purchase of 150 A320 Family aircraft

Airbus booked the order within the regulatory framework which they can operate within. Boeing did the same, with less frames, but tighter Regulatory constraints as outlined by the SEC. What cause confusion back in December was that it was stated that the orders with the Chinese carriers would be booked in 2006. Whilst technically correct, the order was booked by the CASGC as referenced above. BTW, they are still placing them with Shanghai Airlines becoming a new A321 operator taking the last 5 in October.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
Boeing also had 150 X 737 Chinese Government 'orders' of this sort last year, but did not count them as 'firm' for 2006 -

To clarify; Boeing had a GTA for 70 frames in 2005 and a "verbal" commitment for another 80 which had yet to be finalised.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
but did not count them as 'firm' for 2006 - indeed, at a guess, not all of them are yet shown on Boeing's Orders site.

To clarify again, if I may. 50 were firmed up as follows in December 2005;

China Eastern: 3 x 73G & 1 X 738
China Southern: 9 x 73G & 11 x 738
Hainan Airlines: 6 x 738
Shanghai Airlines: 5 x 738
Shenzhen Airlines: 5 x 738
Xiamen Airlines: 10 x 738

So the booked then direct to the carrier in 2005 as for the balance? Boeing coverted the "verbal agreement" for 80 into firm orders and these are all booked between, Air China (25), China Eastern (16), China Southern (10), Hainan Airlines (19), Shanghai Airlines (8), Shandong Airlines (12) and Xiamen Airlines (11*)

That gives you a full accounting of the 70 + 80 combined GTA's that Boeing had.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

*Note the number totals 156 frames as Xiamen Airlines converted their 3 x 787s to 6 x 738s. Thus lkramerica is correct when he states the following;

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
Boeing lists them as canceled because the airline is not going to take them, even though the 3 "rights to buy" are still held by China. They may be reallocated at a later date. But to be as transparent as possible, they are listed as canceled as soon as the action was taken.

After many deleted posts, I believe that should finally put the booking of the 2005 Chinese orders to rest and that it is time we moved on from 2005 and concentrated on 2006/2007.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

In terms of unit value, yes. It would appear Boeing have outsold Airbus on that front. In relation to the number of units. Lets be patient and see what unfolds. Airbus traditionally book their orders in H2 of the year and if some members can't recall, in 2002, Airbus booked 120 A319s for easyjet on December 31.

It's not over to the last day of the year.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Or to use another analogy, Airbus benefited from a staggered start on a running track with no curves in it...

As a former sprinter, back in my long distant youth, I like your analogy. With your permission, I will add it to my business seminar repertoire!

Mike
 
gaut
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:57 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
Boeing will take the honours in terms of the value of aircraft delivered, as they did last year - I would expect the value split to be around 35% Airbus, 65% Boeing.

Hello NAV20

I'm not a financial guy so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong:

I was surprised by your reply, for me Airbus was a clear "winner" in term of deliveries (sorry for the word 'winner', I don't like those stupid B vs A discussions...I am an aerospace fan working for a company having both manufacturers as customer wich is pretty confortable...)

Now if I check the 2005 deliveries :

Boeing:
NB:227 (44%)
WB:63 (41.5%)
Total:290 (43.4%)

Airbus:
NB:289 (56%)
WB:89 (58.5%)
Total:378 (56.6%)
Value: 22.3 M€


--> I dont think Boeing took on Airbus in term of deliveries value in 2005

As for Nov2006:
Boeing:
NB: 281 (47.3%)
WB: 83 (49%)
Total: 364
Value: ?? (47.7%)

Airbus:
NB:313 (52.7%)
WB:86(51%)
Total: 399 (52.3%)
If Boeing beats Airbus in 2006 I won"t expect the value split to be around 35% Airbus, 65% Boeing.


Gaut
«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 31):
As a former sprinter, back in my long distant youth, I like your analogy. With your permission, I will add it to my business seminar repertoire!

Mike

Only because we are both named Mike. Otherwise, I'd have to contact my lawyer...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

Mr. Leahy has been saying so for several months now. I fully expect Boeing to sell more aircraft then Airbus. However, the gap seems to get much more smaller. Also note that both manufacturers have sold more aircraft then they predicted at the beginning of the year.

BTW. Never say never, who know what Airbus (or Boeing) has up their sleeve. Firming up the QR order could go a long way and now the A350XWB recieved the go ahead, the Chinese commitment can be firmed up...

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 6):
Boeing have outsold Airbus in widebodies by almost 4 to 1 so far.

Airbus widebody total YTD stands at about 122, 110 net (deals that have been made public). Boeing had a spectacular year, but they've sold nowhere near 488, or 440 widebody's    (281 they've sold so far).

[Edited 2006-12-21 04:28:06]
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:38 pm

WINGS, Gaut, apologies. Re-read my own post and realised that I'd inadvertently typed the word 'delivered' when I meant 'ordered.' You're quite right, the value split refers to orders received, and is correct - but it won't take effect immediately in comparative revenue terms, that will be played out over the next 3-5 years and will depend on the delivery dates secured by both manufacturers for the various models. Sorry for the mixup.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
BandA
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Will Boeing Outsale Airbus This Year?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:13 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Do you think that Boeing will outsale Airbus this year?

depends... do they take paypal?
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB