PBIflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:47 am

PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:35 am

Great to see US LAS-PBI boookings doing well. FINALLY a flight to a hub out west. It has been sorely needed here. Question is, will anyone else follow suit?

Possibilities:

F9 DEN-PBI
UA DEN-PBI ( Ted?)
US PHX-PBI?
WN PHX-PBI
WN LAS-PBI
WN HOU -PBI ( not really west, but man it would be nice!)
DL SLC-PBI

Thoughts anyone?
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:41 am

You have CO doing PBI-IAH (900 miles west of PBI) and then anyplace west you mention non stop.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting PBIflyguy (Thread starter):
Great to see US LAS-PBI boookings doing well. FINALLY a flight to a hub out west. It has been sorely needed here. Question is, will anyone else follow suit?

Possibilities:

F9 DEN-PBI
UA DEN-PBI ( Ted?)
US PHX-PBI?
WN PHX-PBI
WN LAS-PBI
WN HOU -PBI ( not really west, but man it would be nice!)
DL SLC-PBI

Thoughts anyone?



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
You have CO doing PBI-IAH (900 miles west of PBI) and then anyplace west you mention non stop.

You also have AA via Dallas-Fort Worth. However, you happen to be right. As a Boynton Beach resident myself, however, I can tell you that nearly everybody in my family who flies West of the Mississippi River usually ends up flying out of and in to Fort Lauderdale, due to price and/or the lack of a reasonable connection out of West Palm Beach. But how it took so long for us at PBI to get IAD service on UA, and that we still don't have Denver service on any carrier, is simply remarkable.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13760
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:55 am

Not to mention AA PBI-DFW and anywhere else, DL PBI-ATL and anywhere else, though UA covers more of the west.

I think he wants to have more options and more non-stops. Everyone's dream for their airport, right?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 2):
that we still don't have Denver service on any carrier, is simply remarkable.

I think you should e-mail United ops about that one. If you know anyone who works for UA, have them forward a letter to HQ.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:03 am

while certainly not 'out west' there is sufficient demand for someone to look at doing PVD-PBI. WN or NK seem to be logical options...
 
jfk777
Posts: 5840
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:17 am

Hey, IF Las Vegas works from PBI why not LAX ? With all the LAX flights out of FLL and MIA, PBI could use some LAX of its own. Delta or AA would be the twological candidates, AA since they fly from FLL and MIA & Delta since they do FLL-LAX.
 
phllax
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting PBIflyguy (Thread starter):
F9 DEN-PBI
UA DEN-PBI ( Ted?)
US PHX-PBI?
WN PHX-PBI
WN LAS-PBI
WN HOU -PBI ( not really west, but man it would be nice!)
DL SLC-PBI

Unless SW gets rafts and lifejackets on their airplanes, that would be a long route having to hug the coast. CO and AA cut right across the Gulf to get to IAH and DFW, and so will the US flight to get to LAS.

The only carrier that could possibly start PBI-LAX is DL. For years they operated a LAX-TPA-PBI flight in both directions that only went away with the introduction of Song. If US had any guts they would, but with the absence of a catering company at PBI, the timings would be similar to the LAS flight.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting Phllax (Reply 7):
Unless SW gets rafts and lifejackets on their airplanes, that would be a long route having to hug the coast.


WN has lifejackets on all their planes now to allow short cuts up to 150nm (IIRC) off the gulf and east coast such as MSY-TPA, HOU-TPA/MCO/FLL, LAS-TPA/MCO, FLL-ISP etc.
 
jetBlueNYFL
Posts: 264
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 2:46 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:05 am

jetBlue:

Daily nonstop service between Newburgh, NY (SWF) and West Palm Beach, FL (PBI) starts January 05, 2007.
jetBlue...Bringing Humanity Back To Air Travel!
 
DL4EVR
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:46 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:43 pm

We definitely need some more transcons. FLL is quite a shlep from West Palm Beach, usually taking well over an hour. PBI-LAX on DL would be a great idea, considering DL is PBI's most dominant carrier and they're building up a hub at LAX.
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13760
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 6):
Hey, IF Las Vegas works from PBI why not LAX ?

With somewhat different "money" in the two regions, I don't know if a transcon O&D flight is going to work.

Sure I and my Cousin do LAX-PBI a couple times a year, but unfortunately, airlines don't run flights just for me. I connect in IAH (or sometimes ATL), while he flies AA nonstop to MIA and then rents a car...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
N864DA
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:17 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:23 pm

Remember PBI also serves northern Palm Beach county such as Palm Beach Gardens and Jupiter as well as Martin and St Lucie counties. These areas are heavily populated and FLL is a long drive away. Only those living in southern Palm Beach county would find FLL convenient enough. In my experience, fares don't vary much between the two; sometimes PBI is even cheaper.

UA already has a minimal presence in PBI with only one daily A320 to ORD (downgraded from a B757). DEN would be pretty much out of the question. IF an airline were to operate to a western hub, it would be DL to SLC, once daily. A great majority of PBI traffic is to the northeast, with DL, B6, and CO all major players. Those going out west are better off just connecting in ATL either with DL or with FL.

N864DA
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:38 pm

UA has tripled service...grin. 1 ORD and 2 IAD now...all Ted.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:48 pm

The question becomes - regardless of catchment area - how much non-east coast/midwest business is there for airlines out of PBI... honestly?

Yes, the catchemnt area for PBI is large and for folks out of anything north of say.. downtown.. FLL is quite a schlep. It's even quite a haul at the wrong time of the day from southern parts of the county (Boynton Beach I'm most familiar with, having grown up there). Has Martin/St Lucie/Okeechobee/Indian River grown so large with so may business that would require travel that it would be worth it to add additional nonstop service that can't be absorbed into the current connecting service? Seems to me that they would reopen VRB to service first if the needs of those north of Jupiter were so poorly underserved and the demand was so great.

Has there suddenly been a diaspora from California/Arizona/Oregon/Washington to West Palm Beach that would allow for a large enough market? The answer is likely not.

DL has always been a major player out of PBI for a couple of reasons - they offer service nonstop to the northeast, and anything else they can route through ATL - which is close enough with enough service that pretty much everywhere is covered. I honestly think that if there was enough call for a market the service would be there.

I agree that it sucks. I also agree that there are a large number of people in the area, but I would have to say that the needs of those people that would spend to fly nonstop have already been covered.

I will say, however, that as FLL comes closer and closer to capacity things will probably change.
 
N864DA
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:17 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 14):
Seems to me that they would reopen VRB to service first if the needs of those north of Jupiter were so poorly underserved and the demand was so great.

Jupiter is less than 15 miles from PBI; VRB is about a full 65 miles to the north from there. I doubt VRB could support commercial air service. There is no terminal and the runways are too narrow. Folks up there have PBI, MCO, and MLB as viable options. VRB is about 35 miles from MLB, with sufficient service on DL. If anything, we might see FL starting service up there as the fares out of MLB have been quite high.

There is very little business traffic in that region. However, many snowbirds have places in the Stuart/Port St Lucie areas. They have plenty of options at PBI, with nonstop service to even HPN with FL and SWF with B6. I-95 in that area doesn't have nearly the traffic that, say from Boynton Beach to FLL has. The many leisure travelers to Boca Raton/Delray Beach have FLL and PBI at equal distance and both are very well served with nonstops to the northeast and midwest.

Business traffic is strong in the Boca - West Palm - Jupiter area but it will always be the leisure traffic with the upper hand.

N864DA
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting N864DA (Reply 15):
There is very little business traffic in that region. However, many snowbirds have places in the Stuart/Port St Lucie areas. They have plenty of options at PBI, with nonstop service to even HPN with FL and SWF with B6. I-95 in that area doesn't have nearly the traffic that, say from Boynton Beach to FLL has. The many leisure travelers to Boca Raton/Delray Beach have FLL and PBI at equal distance and both are very well served with nonstops to the northeast and midwest.

Business traffic is strong in the Boca - West Palm - Jupiter area but it will always be the leisure traffic with the upper hand.

That was exactly my point... take a look at the rest of my post.

As to the airport at VRB.. there used to be traffic up there but the area simply couldn't support it. This goes back a good number of years and things haven't really changed. PSL/Stuart/Vero is primarily a snowbird area and for what they are willing to spend it's going to be one of my aforementioned already established PBI routes. The question originally asked was about opening up new markets. My other point is that the catchment area, though large, won't support it. It's not the idea that there's not enough people.. there's not enough money or interest to support new markets.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5840
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:34 am

Southern PB County has the best of both FLL and PBI with in 20 miles and MIA within 50 miles of Central Boca. PBI still needs anonstop to LAX, Califoenia's biggest city.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:46 am

Why would PBI need nonstop service to LAX when it is readily available from both FLL and MIA? Are there REALLY enough passengers to justify that market when a reasonably close-by alternate already exists?

My question is more - is it worth an airline to dedicate an aircraft to that route because.. is the business really there?

Who would you expect to fly it?
 
PBIflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:47 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:49 am

Thanks for the repsonses guys, seems I failed to clarify something in my original post.

I'm fully aware of CO to Houston and AA to DFW. Yuppers, we sure can go places out west, but look at the pricing. Perfect example : when DL dropped PBI-DFW AA jumped right on and raised the fares. The flights on CO and AA are always VERY full, far from affordable at most times. Just ONE WN flight to one of their western hubs would be great. Any flights out west on them (originating in PBI) go through TPA. The last flights home are fairly early, so if you have any delays, you end up missing the TPA-PBI leg. Lord knows it has happened to me a few times.

As the crow flies FLL is not too far away, with no traffic its a reasonable drive. Y'all who don't live here have not factored in ground time. With seasonal traffic FLL can be one hour and 30 minutes away. Why go there when we have a beautiful facility at PBI?

I never thought of PBI-LAX, I always thought PBI-SLC would make more sense. Especially with US coming in from LAS. maybe DL will figure out that ATL is no fun to connect through.
 
PBIflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:47 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Phllax (Reply 7):
Unless SW gets rafts and lifejackets on their airplanes, that would be a long route having to hug the coast. CO and AA cut right across the Gulf to get to IAH and DFW, and so will the US flight to get to LAS.

WN already does TPA-PHX and TPA-LAS. If they flew from PBI they would come right over the coast around the TPA area. So coast hugging is already normal for them.
 
panam330
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
I don't know if a transcon O&D flight is going to work.

Maybe not from PBI, but a SAN-MCO daily could certainly survive off of O&D alone.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting PBIflyguy (Reply 19):
As the crow flies FLL is not too far away, with no traffic its a reasonable drive. Y'all who don't live here have not factored in ground time. With seasonal traffic FLL can be one hour and 30 minutes away. Why go there when we have a beautiful facility at PBI?

There's no arguement there.. unless you are talking to my dad.. who seems to think that you can get to FLL from anywhere south of about Lake Worth in 25 minutes regardless of time of day.. in the 50's maybe.

I'm also not arguing that PBI is not a beautiful facility or that hit suffers from a lack of capacity. My only point is that in order for service to be beefed up, the market has to be there. I'm suggesting that people would love to be able to fly out of PBI but that it's unlikely that an airline is going to dedicate aircraft to a market that will (unfortunately) not break even.

Let's consider the travelling demographic for PBI for a second.. a good number of the people I've seen go through there are older.. usually retirees. If they can get something nonstop to the northeast, they're happy as a clam. If they're going somewhere where they can shave $50 off by driving down to FLL, they'll time their drive as to make sure the hour and 30 minutes. I'm also suggesting that there is not a large enough business base to make a case for increased service out of PBI except maybe to the traditional markets. How much business does Pratt generate? Enough to generate enough high value tickets so as to make the market viable?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see PBI grow to a point where a number of flights could be put on to these markets but I just don't see - from a business standpoint - where it will happen. I, for one, am familiar with the pain it is to head down to FLL. I end up having to fly there far too often to get to see my family.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5840
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:17 pm

Over two million people live in Palm Beach county. While Boston and New York are the two main markets, LAX has nonstop service from smaller markets on the east coast or mid west. Hartford has to be a smaller market then PBI and they have nonstop service the west coast.
 
AirScoot
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:33 pm

Hartford has a huge insurance and banking industry base. There's enough business travel to sustain a flight to LAX. There's also the surrounding business areas such as Springfield.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21):
Maybe not from PBI, but a SAN-MCO daily could certainly survive off of O&D alone.

Agreed. I put that on Jetblues what city should we serve list. I think B6 could do a PBI-SAN run.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
PBIflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:47 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:30 am

Excellent points AirScoot. Lots of retirees for sure...... but lots of business travel too. Especially with all of the corporations moving into the northern Palm Beach County area. I really think that PBI could sustain and fill some flights west.

Side note : do you ever wonder if the industry folks in charge of adding new routes ever read our posts?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13760
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21):

Maybe not from PBI, but a SAN-MCO daily could certainly survive off of O&D alone.

And LAX-LHR works too.

What does SAN-MCO have to do with expanding service to PBI, an airport that is 2 hours away from MCO without traffic, and a much different clientelle.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
panam330
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
What does SAN-MCO have to do with expanding service to PBI, an airport that is 2 hours away from MCO without traffic, and a much different clientelle.

Somebody said something about a transcon O&D flight not working; I just gave an example of a yet-to-be-served route pair that could survive off of O&D.
 
WDBRR
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:28 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 22):
Let's consider the travelling demographic for PBI for a second.. a good number of the people I've seen go through there are older.. usually retirees.

As a former airline guy, I always think of all the people
in wheelchairs lined up waiting to get onto the planes
when I think of PBI.

someone once called the Jetblue boarding as "The healing
hour", since they board the wheelchair people last and
those in the wheelchairs jump out to get in line with
the other passengers.
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 22):
How much business does Pratt generate?

Not much since they moved almost everything to Conn.

Quoting PBIflyguy (Reply 26):
Excellent points AirScoot. Lots of retirees for sure...... but lots of business travel too. Especially with all of the corporations moving into the northern Palm Beach County area. I really think that PBI could sustain and fill some flights west.

I think when Scripts(in Jupiter) gets going then there will be more flights to LAX, plus you have the other medical company(can't remember the name right now) coming to PSL. The Treasure Coast has exploded in the past 3 years. With more medical research coming in the future at the FAU campus in Abacoa here in Jupiter, things might change.  crossfingers 

Dan in Jupiter
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 28):
Somebody said something about a transcon O&D flight not working; I just gave an example of a yet-to-be-served route pair that could survive off of O&D.

Transcon flights can work on O&D alone. Look at every single transcon flight out of BOS, those rely solely on O&D. The same is the case for MCO and their flights to SEA, LAX, SFO, etc.

I don't see why a non-stop to LAX from PBI would be out fo the question.

MIA has some is a good sized market from LAX. Granted Miami is behind New York, Boston, Washington, Philadelphia and Atlanta in terms of demand, West Palm Beach could easily support a flight and steal some passengers away from FLL/MIA-LAX.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 31):
MIA has some is a good sized market from LAX. Granted Miami is behind New York, Boston, Washington, Philadelphia and Atlanta in terms of demand,

Miami-Los Angeles has a larger local market than Philadelphia-Los Angeles, even when you exclude PBI. It is the 5th busiest trans-con route from LA after (in order) QLA-NYC, QLA-WAS, QLA-ATL, and QLA-BOS. QLA-PHL is 6th, then QLA-MCO.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 31):
Transcon flights can work on O&D alone. Look at every single transcon flight out of BOS, those rely solely on O&D. The same is the case for MCO and their flights to SEA, LAX, SFO, etc.

They rely on O&D on the Boston/Orlando side, not nessicarily both. LAX, SEA, and SFO are hubs for large airlines. United, for example, only carriers 155 people a day between Orlando and San Francisco (which is a surprisingly small local market), although they offer nearly 400 daily seats.

PBI-LAX won't work. PBI-LAS does work because of tourist traffic. Business travelers stick to MIA and FLL.

[Edited 2006-12-23 23:51:20]

[Edited 2006-12-23 23:55:08]
a.
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
Miami-Los Angeles has a larger local market than Philadelphia-Los Angeles, even when you exclude PBI. It is the 5th busiest trans-con route from LA after (in order) QLA-NYC, QLA-WAS, QLA-ATL, and QLA-BOS. QLA-PHL is 6th, then QLA-MCO.

I believe there are more daily passengers flying between Boston and Los Angeles than there between Atlanta and Los Angeles.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
They rely on O&D on the Boston/Orlando side, not nessicarily both. LAX, SEA, and SFO are hubs for large airlines. United, for example, only carriers 155 people a day between Orlando and San Francisco (which is a surprisingly small local market), although they offer nearly 400 daily seats.

Very true, which is why AA can offer 7 daily flights between MIA-LAX, the amount of connecting traffic will make the capacity work.


I don't see why PBI-LAX won't work. There is some demand there, coupled with the passengers that will continue on to Asia or Hawaii for example. Also, I would bet that some passengers that choose FLL for transcon flights would switch to PBI if there was to be an LAX flight. MIA is just too far away to say that PBI would steal passengers from them.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):
I believe there are more daily passengers flying between Boston and Los Angeles than there between Atlanta and Los Angeles.

Yes, actually, my error. Not by much, but it is larger. I forgot to include LGB in the Boston count, which gives BOS the edge.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):

Very true, which is why AA can offer 7 daily flights between MIA-LAX, the amount of connecting traffic will make the capacity work.

Yup. Combined with large local premium demand thanks to the fashion, film and music industries that allow AA to offer 3-class service and command many frequencies, and AA is able to make seven daily flights work great. Yet as much as you want to believe it is all connecting traffic, American Airlines carries over 1,400 local passengers a day between Miami and Los Angeles.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):
MIA is just too far away to say that PBI would steal passengers from them.

PBI is a very premium market, so the idea of renting a car or hiring a limo service to get to Miami for a non-stop is not far fetched. Until around 1999, American Eagle flew PBI-MIA because of this. Of course, the days of intra-city routes like MIA-PBI, IAH-HOU, and EWR-HPN are long gone, sans UA's LAX-ONT and LAX-SNA flights. While it seems contradictory to say it is a premium market and it won't support a non-stop, it is not a premium business market, and that is what drives demand for non-stops. Premium leisure travelers aren't in a hurry, and many in Palm Beach are simply used to taking a town car service to MIA to catch a long-haul flight to Europe, South America, or whatnot.

[Edited 2006-12-24 00:45:04]
a.
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 34):
Yup. Combined with large local premium demand thanks to the fashion, film and music industries that allow AA to offer 3-class service and command many frequencies, and AA is able to make seven daily flights work great. Yet as much as you want to believe it is all connecting traffic, American Airlines carries over 1,400 local passengers a day between Miami and Los Angeles.

I am not saying that without connecting traffic, MIA-LAX would not work. I am saying that the increase in frequencies and using larer aircraft is helped by connecting passengers. I realize that there is a lot fo demand and premium paying passengers, but without the connections, namely the Latin American ones, AA would not be able to operate 7 daily flights, 4 of which are widebodies. I am curious, when you say 1,400 passengers, is that th total amount of all passengers including connecting ones? I didnt think MIA-LAX had more than 1,000 O&D passengers. This spring, AA will beoffering more than 2,200 seats on this route.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 35):
I am curious, when you say 1,400 passengers, is that th total amount of all passengers including connecting ones?

No, that is local only.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 35):
I didnt think MIA-LAX had more than 1,000 O&D passengers.

Miami-Los Angeles, excluding the other LA area airports, has over 2,100 daily local passengers (AA carries about 66%; Delta around 18%, and United about 8.5%), only 300 less than Boston-Los Angeles.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 35):
I am saying that the increase in frequencies and using larer aircraft is helped by connecting passengers.

The frequencies are to cater to local business demand, that demand that many frequencies. The larger aircraft size is to cater to help fill with connecting passengers. Passengers connecting to a bank of flights to South America don't demand frequency. It isn't surprising that the three widebody flights on the route connect to the main Caribbean and Latin American departure banks [while AA's MIA hub is officially a rolling hub, there are none the less two main international departure banks, the late afternoon Caribbean/LatAm departures and two evening Deep LatAm departure banks], while most of the narrowbody flights don't offer many connections outside of high-frequency routes, like Orlando and Nassau.

[Edited 2006-12-24 01:56:04]

[Edited 2006-12-24 02:00:31]
a.
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
Miami-Los Angeles, excluding the other LA area airports, has over 2,100 daily local passengers (AA carries about 66%; Delta around 18%, and United about 8.5%), only 300 less than Boston-Los Angeles.

Also, you are including both FLL and PBI. If you want to do things that way, I will add in PVD and MHT making the local passengers over 2,900.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 37):

Also, you are including both FLL and PBI. If you want to do things that way, I will add in PVD and MHT making the local passengers over 2,900.

I am including FLL, but not including PBI (which would add another 150 or so). If you want to include PBI, then I guess it would be fair to include PVD and MHT. Including FLL is not at all like including MHT/PVD. MIA and FLL are no different than EWR/JFK/LGA or DCA/IAD. They just don't share a city name. Airlines consider them coterminal points (MHT/PVD/BOS are not). I don't get your obsession with trying to downplay every single statement on South Florida airports.
a.
 
JetBlueORD
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:51 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:42 pm

ORD - PBI, I like it. You?
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
I am including FLL, but not including PBI (which would add another 150 or so). If you want to include PBI, then I guess it would be fair to include PVD and MHT. Including FLL is not at all like including MHT/PVD. MIA and FLL are no different than EWR/JFK/LGA or DCA/IAD. They just don't share a city name. Airlines consider them coterminal points (MHT/PVD/BOS are not). I don't get your obsession with trying to downplay every single statement on South Florida airports.

I don't insult South Florida airports as much as you think. I came into this thread to show support of PBI-LAX and other flights. I travel to South Florida a couple of tiems a year and have no problems with the airports. I was simply stating that there is more demand between BOS alone and LAX than there is to MIA. That is not putting down the airport. You don't see me in here trying to argue the demand between JFK and LAX.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 40):
I was simply stating that there is more demand between BOS alone and LAX than there is to MIA.

Yes, you were, which nobody argued. However, you consistently try to manipulate the numbers for Miami-Los Angeles in order to try to "proove" that there is less demand for Miami-Los Angeles then there actually is, when in reality the Miami-Los Angeles market is more than double what you like to claim.
a.
 
B752OS
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
Yes, you were, which nobody argued. However, you consistently try to manipulate the numbers for Miami-Los Angeles in order to try to "proove" that there is less demand for Miami-Los Angeles then there actually is, when in reality the Miami-Los Angeles market is more than double what you like to claim.

When did I change the numbers? There is no need to change the numbers to prove my point that there is more demand between Boston and Los Angeles than there is between Miami and Los Angeles. If anything you are the one who changes the numbers adding in FLL to the MIA numbers. I am done fighting with you over points you know are true, as stateS above, my point that there is more demand between BOS-LAX than MIA-LAX is True.


Have a nice holiday.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: PBI - Possible New Routes?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 42):
If anything you are the one who changes the numbers adding in FLL to the MIA numbers. I

Because they should be added together, considering their proximity and their use by consumers in Miami interchangeable. Just like DAL and DFW, IAH and HOU, IAD and DCA, etc. You try to argue that they should be seperated, but then you would also have to argue that IAD and DCA (which are further apart than FLL and MIA are) aren't the same either. I'm not changing anything. You like to claim I am.

If Bedford was a large secondary airport, would you try to argue it wasn't part of Boston's numbers? Because at only 16 miles from Logan, it certainly would be.

[Edited 2006-12-25 02:24:14]
a.