MD88Captain
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Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:57 am

The DAL Creditor committee has come out in support of DAL's Reorganization Plan, but is keeping an eye out for other offers. Sorry Parker.

NEW YORK, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc.'s official creditor committee said on Wednesday it supported the carrier's decision to file a reorganization plan, but it would continue to consider potential alternatives.

Delta (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile , Research), which has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since September 2005, rejected a takeover offer from rival US Airways Group Inc. (LCC.N: Quote, Profile , Research) on Tuesday and filed a business plan that would see it exit bankruptcy as an independent carrier.

A number of issues, including those left open in the plan, will be the focus of continuing discussions between creditors and Delta over the coming weeks, the official committee of unsecured creditors said in a brief statement.

But the committee added that it would continue to look at alternatives at the same time to maximize recoveries for unsecured creditors.
 
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foxecho
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:05 am

Thanks for posting this, I missed this today

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI
..uh, we'll need that to live......
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:10 am

Well, that explains the inexplicable press release from the DL B.O.D. saying they had "decided" not to go with US, as if they had the power to decide, which they don't.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
But the committee added that it would continue to look at alternatives at the same time to maximize recoveries for unsecured creditors.

Obviously they feel there are better merger alternatives for DL, and Grinstein himself hasn't ruled that possibility out. They agree with him whole heatedly that Parker and the US offer is pure Snake-Oil!
All the Delta haters on a.net are going to have the ultimate mother of all  hissyfit !
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:22 pm

Funny how US Airways put out a press release stating that the Delta Creditors agree with US Airways!
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 4):
Funny how US Airways put out a press release stating that the Delta Creditors agree with US Airways!

The release i red this afternoon was not put out by Delta, but rather from the creditor committee themselves. Given the lack of concrete information, and fuzzy answers to questions; ive had a hard time believeing anything US has been saying.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
zsx81
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:38 pm

GREAT NEWS!! Thank Captain.. here is the link incase anyone else thinks its too good to be true

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/business/21delta.html
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 5):
Given the lack of concrete information, and fuzzy answers to questions; ive had a hard time believeing anything US has been saying.

As a Dividend Miles Silver Preferred member, and usually about as close to a US Airways cheerleader as you get on this site, I have to admit that I'm about at the end of my rope with them, and it has nothing to do with their flights (I haven't been on a flight, on US Airways or any other carrier, since August 1st), but the attitude they've been displaying lately, particularly regarding their proposed takeover bid for Delta Air Lines (and, let's face it, even if Gerald Grinstein couldn't wait for it to show up at his doorstep, the Department of Justice would never allow this to happen short of a VERY large amount of divestitures, divestitures significant enough that would cause Parker to simply throw his hands up in disgust and call it off. I even stated in a job interview I had with US Airways, about a week after the takeover bid was announced, that I didn't think that the Department of Justice would agree to it (and is it any wonder why no airline will hire me?). The good news, of course, is that we won't have to waste our government's time and our money to find out.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:46 pm

The DAL has been telling/hinting the troops that the Creditors did not like the LCC offer. So this was expected by some and hoped for by all DAL types.
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
The DAL Creditor committee has come out in support of DAL's Reorganization Plan, but is keeping an eye out for other offers. Sorry Parker.

Actually, they didn't say that they support or endorse the plan itself. It actually says that they "support the carrier's decision to file the reorganization plan". That comes across like another non-commital statement. In fact, if I were to take the "glass if half empty" view, this means that the US plan is still in the running (hence the 'gleeful' US statement that the creditors are still considering the US plan and have not tossed it out yet).

Of course the key advantage of the US plan is the $4 billion cash 'carrot' and DL has not mentioned the split between cash and equity in the reorganization plan. Hence the statement:

"A number of issues, including those left open in the plan, will be the focus of continuing discussions between creditors and Delta over the coming weeks, the official committee of unsecured creditors said in a brief statement."

It looks like DL deliberately went in there with the "low-ball" estimate of zero cash to gauge the initial reaction of the creditors. That's why there is now a period in the coming weeks where those "open items" (such as cash distribution, exit financing, equity stake amounts, etc.) will be discussed between DL and the Creditors Committee.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:30 pm

The creditors basically made a statement that says nothing. They haven't ruled anything in and they haven't ruled anything out.

They are fully aware that it would next to impossible for a DL/US merger to get through the DOJ/DOT/EU without ripping out the heart of what makes each airline profitable (their large east coast assets). DL also knows that and doesn't want to offer any more cash than they have to, knowing full well that you can give the creditors any amount of cash they want but that comes at the expense of more debt for DL - debt that will have to be serviced when the industry takes an almost certain downturn.

I would suggest anyone that is at all interested review the POR, antitrust, and US merger presentations on delta.com here:

http://www.delta.com/about_delta/cor...n/speeches_presentations/index.jsp

You will see that DL will have the lowest debt levels for an airline of its size by far (half of what AA has and 50% less than UA or CO - not adjusted for size) and will have the best EBITDAR coverage - the ability to service debt (by a 2 to 1 margin). Coupled with the lowest costs on a mileage adjusted basis, and DL will be one fierce competitior. It is no wonder US and everyone else wants DL gone - or if they are going to be alive and independent, to be loaded up with debt.

Several people have commented about the excess valuation they believe DL made of itself. That valuation looks very realistic when you look at the very low debt values.

DL's creditors have the choice of accepting DL's lower cash offer which will create an incredibly powerful airline or saddling DL with debt that will make it less healthy and more susceptible to downturns.

While creditors certainly want as much as they want, they will have to think very hard about pushing any proposal that weakens their long-term ability to recover. Since no recovery will offer them 100% cash, they have to accept that some portion of the recovery is dependent on the future value of the company.

One other note on why the creditors will be attracted to DL's plan. DL's tax assets are valued at $1.6-$1.7B which means that DL can essentially earn that much money before they have to start paying taxes. Those will be lost if DL is sold to US. It is highly likely that US would exhaust its own tax assets. DL's tax assets are a unique advantage to its own plan and are lost under any merger proposal.

It is incredibly difficult to envision a merger scenario between any two airlines that is financially better than what each carrier can do on a standalone basis given the costs of mergers, the loss of tax assets, and the value that the bankruptcy process provides to each airline in reducing debt and allowing increased flexibility to right size the airline during downtimes.
 
77411
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 2):
Well, that explains the inexplicable press release from the DL B.O.D. saying they had "decided" not to go with US, as if they had the power to decide, which they don't.

They may not have the ultimate say on this merger thing but they did there job and reviewed the proposal to see if it was beneficial. So that was the purpose for that press release. Thats all it was so relax.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:22 am

And remember there has still NEVER been a successful hostile takeover in the airline industry.

Delta's creditors know that Doug Parker has no chance of succeeding and are trying to get as much as they can from DL management w/o endangering the future stability of the company. When DL management tells them they cannot assure DL will be profitable when the creditors demand that DL throw in a couple billion dollars more debt, the creditors will back off, take their stock and be happy.

Let's also not forget that DL tried not once but twice to restructure its debt BEFORE filing for bankruptcy. Not one airline has ever tried to restructure its debt outside of bankruptcy to the degree DL tried. The creditors said no and now have to live with the bankruptcy process which is heavily weighted in favor of the company since management does have the right to exclusively present a restructuring plan. The creditors can fight but they will only delay DL's exit and diminish the creditors' ability to recover.
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:30 am

 rotfl 

Have you read what the actual release says?!?

Quote:
Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc.'s official creditor committee said on Wednesday it supported the carrier's decision to file a reorganization plan, but it would continue to consider potential alternatives.

They support Delta's decision to FILE a PLAN. They didn't say they support the plan itself.

Basically, what they're saying is "we're glad management came up with a recommendation other than Chapter 7. We continue to seek the best offer for our debt, however, which may include offers from US or others."
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:32 am

Quote:
When DL management tells them they cannot assure DL will be profitable when the creditors demand that DL throw in a couple billion dollars more debt, the creditors will back off, take their stock and be happy.

Who is going to lend Delta's management team more money to get out of bankruptcy? Delta's credit rating is toast and will be toast after their "emergence" -- especially if they keep losing money (the most likely outcome).

US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit. Delta's BOD wouldn't be able to get a loan from their own mothers, let alone any creditor who does due diligence.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 14):
US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit.

I think its a little premature to give anyone credit for "managing" a merger that hasn't really happened yet.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Silver764
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:43 am

Who is going to lend Delta's management team more money to get out of bankruptcy? Delta's credit rating is toast and will be toast after their "emergence" -- especially if they keep losing money (the most likely outcome).

US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit. Delta's BOD wouldn't be able to get a loan from their own mothers, let alone any creditor who does due diligence.

Make no mistake...there will be plenty of people lined up to give exit financing. I expect familiar names will be Boeing, GE and possibly AMEX will be in the mix.

[Edited 2006-12-21 19:51:31]
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:48 am

Oddly enough, US's recent financial success only bolsters the idea that Delta can become very profitable once it exits from BK. Costs were slashed massively, and DL will be growing its revenue (777LR, 757ETOPS, 737s).

W.Traveler's comments about "loss of tax assets" are interesting. Anyone with further info?

The DOJ has not publicly commented on US-DL, UA-CO (just as troublesome IMO) or NW-CO or US-NW. To presume the government hates mergers may well prevent ANY mergers from happening. The government needs to offer some unofficial comments, because the market is functioning as if "no" is a likely answer -- which I don't believe.

DL's plan may well promise profits, and it may deliver. But structurally, I am not sure why Doug Parker could not do the same plan -- schedule and market the same flights, and handle the accounting -- from Phoenix, reap the same rewards, but lop off the Delta management overhead, which is 5 to 10% of operating costs... very big money.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
william
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:54 am

Hey USairplatinum, who lent AmWest and USair money for their exitS from BK? There are plenty of sources for capital,banks make money lending.
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 18):
DL's plan may well promise profits, and it may deliver. But structurally, I am not sure why Doug Parker could not do the same plan -- schedule and market the same flights, and handle the accounting -- from Phoenix, reap the same rewards, but lop off the Delta management overhead, which is 5 to 10% of operating costs... very big money.

"New Delta" would be almost triple the size of HP/US. I don't know for sure, but I doubt an airline that size could be run with the same size back office that is running US. I'm sure there could be some savings, but you can't just eliminate all of DL's office staff and run an airline of the same size.

As for why Doug Parker couldn't do the same plan, it's mainly antitrust issues. The merged carrier would have to sell off many of its most profitable assets. Looking at the DL and US Shuttles alone, right now the US shuttle makes lots of money for US and the DL shuttle makes lots of money for DL. Selling one of those would eliminate one of those two profit sources for the combined company.

It's the same with any other divestitures. Whatever is divested can no longer bring profits into the combined company, and whatever survives as a part of US/DL doesn't suddenly become more profitable because another airline will either buy the divested assets or start up new service.

There are also enormous dollar costs associated with merging fleets, equipment, airport space, etc. Not to mention the tangible and intangible costs of merging two very large groups of employees, both of which seem overwhelmingly opposed to the merger. So I don't think you can just call an airline "HP/US/DL" and eliminate all but HP management, and have the same profits those airlines made separately.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:11 am

America West wasn't in bankruptcy when it bought US. The management team for AmWest had credibility in turning around a carrier, which is why they were able to get additional funding. If the old US's management team had pushed for the same loans themselves, they would have been laughed out of the room.

Delta's management team, on the other hand, has no credibility. One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
ord
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 21):
Delta's management team, on the other hand, has no credibility. One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Delta's management team is highly respected and has done an incredible job. In three short years, the team has increased revenues 23% from $13 billion to $16 billion and lowered costs per seat mile from 9.36 cents to 6.91. Further, they have increased services and amenities to the customer while also changing the corporate culture and increasing morale. Please tell me what "turnaround artist" could have done a better job.
 
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airzim
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
And remember there has still NEVER been a successful hostile takeover in the airline industry.

I think Texas Air's takeover of Continental would constitute a hostile takeover. Plus an example of a smaller carrier taking control over a larger one.
 
Evan767
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 20):
One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.

That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management who is making the airline suffer from their dreadfully poor service and dim employees.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:04 am

Quote:
That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management

I guess if driving the company into Chapter 11, losing $1 billion a year, and making it vulnerable to a takeover bid from a major competitor is doing well, then Delta's management is world-class.  rotfl 
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
Evan767
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 24):
I guess if driving the company into Chapter 11, losing $1 billion a year, and making it vulnerable to a takeover bid from a major competitor is doing well, then Delta's management is world-class.

Woah woah woah hang on there buddy. I thought we were talking about DL's current management who drastically turned the airline around, not the Leo Mullin days.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:19:54]
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
halls120
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
The government needs to offer some unofficial comments, because the market is functioning as if "no" is a likely answer -- which I don't believe.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for comment from DOJ on the proposed merger.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
pbottenb
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 23):
US Airways' management who is making the airline suffer from their dreadfully poor service and dim employees.

WOW - You're really are being rude here. I dont care one way on another on this merger. But I do fly US Airways frequently (50K miles per year for the last 10 years - mostly on HP) and I find their service now to be more than acceptable, if not great (free first class upgrade for me over 80% of my flights) and I find their employees to be ANYTHING but dim. In fact, I find US employees to be diligent, considerate, and hardworking, something that I have not experienced on other airlines.

So, cut the crap please.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:46:26]
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:40 am

Some analysts weigh in on Delta's poor "standalone" prospects:

Quote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11841763/

Delta Air Lines Inc. is living off borrowed cash and needs to lower its costs if it wants to avoid the fate of nearly a dozen carriers that have liquidated or been sold after filing for Chapter 11 since the 1980s, a restructuring expert testified Wednesday.

Timothy Coleman of The Blackstone Group LP, Delta’s main financial adviser since May 2004, spoke before an arbitration panel on the third day of hearings that will decide whether the nation’s third-largest carrier can void its contract with its 6,000 pilots so it can impose up to $325 million in pay and benefit cuts.

“It isn’t just about getting yourself out of bankruptcy, which we can do,” said Coleman, his firm’s senior managing director. “It’s about getting out and staying out and being able to operate on a viable basis.”

That was before the pilots restructured their contract, but Delta's costs are high and Delta remains a moneyloser outside of its domestic system. Its international expansion has been costly, prestigious and as profitable as Pan Am in the late 1980s.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
pbottenb
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 27):
Quoting Evan767 (Reply 23):
US Airways' management who is making the airline suffer from their dreadfully poor service and dim employees.

WOW - You really are being rude here. I dont care one way on another on this merger. But I do fly US Airways frequently (50K miles per year for the last 10 years - mostly on HP) and I find their service now to be more than acceptable, if not great (free first class upgrade for me over 80% of my flights) and I find their employees to be ANYTHING but dim. In fact, I find US employees to be diligent, considerate, and hardworking, something that I have not experienced on other airlines.

So, cut the crap please.

One more thought on the quality of services and employees, from an (as far as I know) independent source:WebFlyer Ratings and Reviews:

http://www.webflyer.com/programs/rat...s_and_reviews/program.php?key=US01

"If all remains calm (and relatively unchanged) on the Dividend Miles front, we heartily recommend this gem of a frequent flyer program. "

"Of the Big Six, it's safe to say US Airways earns the most consistent praise from its customers. Even back in the dark days of bankruptcy, when a dedicated group of gadflies known as "cockroaches" protested changes to the program, they made it clear that their disdain was aimed squarely at the office dwellers, not the front-line staff.

Our own investigation has shown Dividend Miles personnel to be both courteous and knowledgeable. But don't take our word for it. Listen to the elite-level members -- the ones who truly fill the seats day after day. Overwhelmingly, they are genuinely pleased with the service of the program."

"Overall the experience is a positive one, and it appears that in the midst of the merger, US Air and America West are keeping things clear and simple, to keep customers well-informed and and happy.

Kudos to US Airways for its membership in the Star Alliance - the worldwide reach of the airline rivals that of any of the other major carriers.
Way to go for the concise partner miles-earning charts and a relatively easy-to-browse website, unlike many others we've seen.
And particular praise for what is arguably the best elite program in the U.S., and the service to back it up. Let's hope it stays that way. "
 
USAirPlatinum
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:53 am

Dividend Miles is *vastly* superior to SkyMiles. In fact, Delta depreciated SkyMiles so dramatically that there was a campaign launched by their own frequent flyers to try and get the changes undone. It was largely unsuccessful.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
cityguy
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:57 am

As a US Chairmans-I can tell you the airline stinks and Parker is not making PHL OPS better at all. I can't wait to try other airlines in 2007. I had a recent flight on AirTran-what a HUGE difference. Friendly, efficient, NEW aircraft that are clean, great fares and overall a wonderful experience.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 25):
I thought we were talking about DL's current management who drastically turned the airline around,

Well, there hasn't really been a turnaround yet. They may have lowered costs but the airline is still unprofitable. I do not hate/love either Delta or US.

And to be fair, there's probably some investors out there who would ivest in DL's plan if they like the plan and think it can return to profitability. AC was on the brink of collapse but was able to get billions from GE and Deutschebank because they had a plan that the investors liked (and rightfully so, AC is now stronger than ever).

I may be a bit for US in this situation, but only because I'd like to see some more power in the STAR alliance, and Delta would make an awesome addition. I do not have a hate on for Delta, nor a love affair with US.


Kris
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
but Delta's costs are high and Delta remains a moneyloser outside of its domestic system. Its international expansion has been costly, prestigious and as profitable as Pan Am in the late 1980s.

You make absolutely no sense whatsoever with what you just said. PanAm was on the very verge of collapse by the late 1980s. Lockerbie is what finally pushed them over.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 32):
And to be fair, there's probably some investors out there who would invest in DL's plan if they like the plan and think it can return to profitability. AC was on the brink of collapse but was able to get billions from GE and Deutschebank because they had a plan that the investors liked (and rightfully so, AC is now stronger than ever).

Delta's plan is VERY similar to the one AirCanada put forward to their creditors back in 2004. Getting rid of Comair however will be more critical than AC putting the Jazz unit into a profitable trust. AC makes most of their money flying to Europe and Asia and to some extent Latin America (they get a great deal of competition on these routes from winter charters from tour operators). But a big chunk of the money they make is on US trans-border operations.
Quite interestingly ACE CEO Bob Milton wanted DL in Star Alliance originally is my understanding. Frankly I think a stand alone DL going into Star sounds like a great idea, and US can go whore itself with NW and take DL's place on SkyTeam!  rotfl 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
NADC10Fan
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 24):
Quote:
That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management

I guess if driving the company into Chapter 11, losing $1 billion a year, and making it vulnerable to a takeover bid from a major competitor is doing well, then Delta's management is world-class. rotfl

I must say that you, sir, are truly becoming offensive in your outright baiting on the issue of this merger.

I have not been inclined to take sides previously, but to try and view it openmindedly; but your idiot antics have firmly succeeded in turning me against the possibility if this is the kind of sub-intelligent mentality that is being exhibited by the merger's supporters.

I fully recommend that the moderators review your postings for violation of terms of service. On some boards, I guarantee you would have been booted and IP-banned previous to now for your ridiculously poor behaviour in this matter.
TANSTAAFL!
 
cubastar
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RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:14 am

[quote=USAirPlatinum,reply=28]Some analysts weigh in on Delta's poor "standalone" prospects:

Quote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11841763/

Delta Air Lines Inc. is living off borrowed cash and needs to lower its costs if it wants to avoid the fate of nearly a dozen carriers that have liquidated or been sold after filing for Chapter 11 since the 1980s, a restructuring expert testified Wednesday.


As you said, that was when they were trying to terminate the pilot's contract. The article was written March 15, 2006. Much has changed since then.
 
USAirPlatinum
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 pm

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:16 am

Quote:
I fully recommend that the moderators review your postings for violation of terms of service. On some boards, I guarantee you would have been booted and IP-banned previous to now for your ridiculously poor behaviour in this matter.

So because I am taking a point of view different from yours, I should be banned from posting?

Something tells me you weren't calling for similar terms when it was US that was under the gun.

I'm not pointing out anything that isn't factually obvious. I'm just doing it in a way that isn't slavishly pro-Delta.
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3407
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 36):
Something tells me you weren't calling for similar terms when it was US that was under the gun.

I'm not pointing out anything that isn't factually obvious. I'm just doing it in a way that isn't slavishly pro-Delta.

You're so anti DL it makes me want to  vomit  The moderators may not do anything, but you RR rating will remain a big 0 for a long time and in fact would show a big negative number if it were set up that way.  mad   irked 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 30):
to try and get the changes undone. It was largely unsuccessful.

LIES. Do you see 0.5 MQMs for LUT fares around anymore?

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 28):
but Delta's costs are high

LIES.
Q3 2006 Mainline ex-Fuel CASM (Stage length adjusted):
DL: 6.68 cents
NW: 6.72 cents
AA: 7.55 cents
CO: 7.86 cents
UA: 7.92 cents

From:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/19/del...219markets05.html?partner=yahootix

"...Ray Neidl, an analyst for Calyon Securities, said....... "We believe that this cost structure would make the airline competitive not only with other legacy airlines but to a certain degree with the low cost carriers as well," he said in a note..."
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 30):
Dividend Miles is *vastly* superior to SkyMiles. In fact, Delta depreciated SkyMiles so dramatically that there was a campaign launched by their own frequent flyers to try and get the changes undone. It was largely unsuccessful.

And could I see your proof for this?

Yes, Delta did devalue their SkyMiles program. Yes, Save SkyMiles came about. And yes, it's been changed a bit. Get 2002 out of your head - that's the past. The biggest gripe was the 50% MQMs on cheap fares. That's gone - every fare gets full MQMs now. The only other change is no more segments - not a huge deal - it took me 33 segments to fly 25,000 MQMs this year (I'm pretty much all up and down the East Coast); it used to be 30 segments got Silver. I'd say SSM was quite successful, and if you talk to the folks over at FlyerTalk (these were the people actually running the thing) instead of imaging yet another Delta failure, you'd see that once again you're wrong.

And I've posted in other threads that you've spammed why I, as both a DL and US elite, feel SkyMiles is superior and I'm no longer on Dividend Miles and only SkyMiles (and AAdvantage when I can). And as for using WebFlyer, it's a bit outdated in terms of it's review - just looking at both DL and US' reviews, I see things that need updating (like no Platinum level mentioned on US' review; mileage expiration on DL).

As for more FF program discussion, I'll head over to FlyerTalk, where the talk is much more rational (and knowledgable) on this subject than over here.
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 36):
Quote:
I fully recommend that the moderators review your postings for violation of terms of service. On some boards, I guarantee you would have been booted and IP-banned previous to now for your ridiculously poor behaviour in this matter.

So because I am taking a point of view different from yours, I should be banned from posting?

No, sir. You should - and, as I said, in many areas would - be banned for exhibiting behaviour that is almost never anything more than baiting those who disagree with you.

As an adult, I do not mind disagreements with other posters. Generally, however, they too behave as adults and we can discuss those differences rationally. None of that exists within your posts, sir; at least, you certainly have not been able to exhibit that ability over the period of the USAirways/Delta debate. And, in fact, you have been quite offensive in the opposite.

Quote:
Something tells me you weren't calling for similar terms when it was US that was under the gun.

You have no clue. I rooted strongly for U.S. Airways and watched them closely through their troubles. Indeed, I helped a friend who is active on the markets turn a tidy profit when I spoke to him concerning U.S. Airways' impending emergence from their most recent bankruptcy. Have you done the same sort of positive action concerning anything in this matter?

Quote:
I'm not pointing out anything that isn't factually obvious. I'm just doing it in a way that isn't slavishly pro-Delta.

You are using what facts you are using - and not always the truth - in order to bait those who disagree with you. This is consistently visible in every post you have made on that ... save perhaps this one, where you are finally defending your poor character. Perfect case in mind is the blatant referral to the current Delta management as the one which took them into bankruptcy. This is most certainly false, as had been pointed out previously.

Could you mend this sort of blatant and ridiculous behaviour, I'd be pleased to support your right to speak as you wish; but I have no compunctions about censuring foolishness for foolishness' sake, such as you have engaged in. That deserves no more nor less than punishment.
TANSTAAFL!
 
USAirPlatinum
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 pm

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:28 am

Quote:
Mainline ex-Fuel CASM (Stage length adjusted)

I didn't say "Delta's costs sans fuel were relatively high when compared to legacy carriers."

I said "Delta's costs are high." Not only in comparison to LCCs, but also in comparison to the fares they're able to charge and the demand on their international segments.

That CASM measure not only excludes fuel, but also finance charges (which are high for DL and will get higher).

[Edited 2006-12-21 22:29:32]
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
USAirPlatinum
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 pm

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:31 am

Quote:
ibiting behaviour that is almost never anything more than baiting those who disagree with you

You mean, not apologizing for disagreeing with people who think they're right?

Whatever.

Got something to add to the debate itself, or are you going to continue to insist that anyone who doesn't agree with Delta's turnaround plan is a baiting troll of horrible intent?
"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 27):
WOW - You're really are being rude here.

I'm sorry if I offended you Pbottenb. My insult was directed at USAirPlatinum. Why would I be so rude and untruthful? Why would I insult the airline's employees? Well, I was simply giving him a dose of his on medicine. Once again, I apologize.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3147770
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:48 am

And yet another brilliant rebuttal awaits ...

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 42):
Quote:
(exh)ibiting behaviour that is almost never anything more than baiting those who disagree with you

You mean, not apologizing for disagreeing with people who think they're right?

No. Read what I write. It's clear enough; you don't need to try and interpret it ... unless, of course, the idea is simply to prove your obtuseness.

I couldn't care less if you disagree with those who think the proposed take-over is a bad idea. That's certainly your right, just as it's theirs to think it's bad. Cool beans!

The problem is entirely in how you go about it, which is to behave like a spoiled child and bait all those you disagree with using innuendo, half-truths and outright falsehoods. Whether this is simply for your own entertainment or in order to obscure the view with as much noise as possible only you can say.

So far, the mods here seem willing to put up with it ... but all that does is serve to make such topics distasteful and disenchanting for those who are simply trying to seek facts and partake in or witness rational discussion.

Quote:
Got something to add to the debate itself,

As I am not an expert in the issues of this case to have facts to present, I have nothing more than opinion. However, I at least have the wit to realize that. I come to topics such as this in order to seek that information and debate, only to run into your juvenile attempts to cloudy and derail them.

However, we can surely put that behind, sir, if you are willing. Should you care to discuss calmly and rationally what that opinion might be, without the silly baiting, I'll be abundantly pleased to leave off and see what might be discussed. Ball's in your court, Federer! Whaddya say?

Quote:
or are you going to continue to insist that anyone who doesn't agree with Delta's turnaround plan is a baiting troll of horrible intent?

 laughing 

Not at all - only those, such as yourself, who actually are!
TANSTAAFL!
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 43):
Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 27):
WOW - You're really are being rude here.

I'm sorry if I offended you Pbottenb. My insult was directed at USAirPlatinum. Why would I be so rude and untruthful? Why would I insult the airline's employees? Well, I was simply giving him a dose of his on medicine. Once again, I apologize.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...47770

No worries, Since Im not a US employee I did not feel that offended, but there really has been ALOT of over the top US Airways bashing lately by many who are opposed to this merger, and they should remember that US employees are people too and that they work just as hard as any DL employee.

I sometimes find it difficult to maintain a sense of balance when I am being baited by another user such as it seems that USAirPlatinum is doing, and I have also typed some things that I later regret (hence the low respect rating), but lately I am really trying not to let the trolls get to me (and trying not to be one myself), and I am happier for it....

Thx
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 22):

I think Texas Air's takeover of Continental would constitute a hostile takeover. Plus an example of a smaller carrier taking control over a larger one.

And white the takeover happened, I don't think that anyone believes that it was, in point of fact, a success. Texas Air almost destroyed Continental and it did destroy Eastern [which was doing a fine job of destroying itself admittedly].
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 23):
That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management who is making the airline suffer from their dreadfully poor service and dim employees.

This sounds like a lot of employees on here which is fine. I hope DL employees are not fooled into thinking the company wants to look out for them first. This industry is in survival mode. People will drive 2 hrs to save $50/ticket price. The demand is beating down the carriers for cheaper tickets. The price of Jet A will not lower. Airlines are being forced to outsource as much as possible to increase shareholder wealth not employee well being.

This industry is, historically, slow to evolve. Stockholders/creditors hold the stick and will look after their investments ruthlessly.

Do not be fooled.

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 34):
I fully recommend that the moderators review your postings for violation of terms of service. On some boards, I guarantee you would have been booted and IP-banned previous to now for your ridiculously poor behaviour in this matter.

One finger out three fingers back. You're the one being ridiculous her, Sport. Take a chill pill.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 38):
Ray Neidl, an analyst for Calyon Securities, said....... "We believe that this cost structure would make the airline competitive not only with other legacy airlines but to a certain degree with the low cost carriers as well," he said in a note..."

Panamair, maybe it was Otto or WorldTraveler, but I thought it was you I commented on Ray Neidl. He's no longer with UBS because his recommendations on the industry did not pan out. Calyon is a much smaller institution sitting on a lot of airline stock. His job is to increase activity on the stocks spur growth.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 33):
Frankly I think a stand alone DL going into Star sounds like a great idea, and US can go whore itself with NW and take DL's place on SkyTeam!

I thought SkyTeam was the largest airline alliance, DL is the US carrier making SkyTeam successful.

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 40):
No, sir. You should - and, as I said, in many areas would - be banned for exhibiting behaviour that is almost never anything more than baiting those who disagree with you.

Maybe he's matured to adult boards that allow him to say what he wants without backing up the facts. Get over it.

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 40):
And, in fact, you have been quite offensive in the opposite.

Offensive?!?! Oh My God.

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 40):
Could you mend this sort of blatant and ridiculous behaviour, I'd be pleased to support your right to speak as you wish; but I have no compunctions about censuring foolishness for foolishness' sake, such as you have engaged in. That deserves no more nor less than punishment.

So do not reply to him.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 1849
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 20):
One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on.

Umm .... actually, DL did ... what you're failing to realize is that DL did this prior to their BK filing when they started their restructuring and turnaround process.

The narrowly avoided a BK filing at least one time, maybe more, before the stratospheric fuel cost rise post-Katrina drove them over the cliff.

A vast number of these restructuring changes done during the BK process were already in place well before the filing.

The BK process has simply streamlined the process, allowing the company to survive until it could get its financial house in order.

Consider this : DL's post BK plans (as well as the now filed restructuring plan) are counting on $75/bar fuel costs (they'd been planning on $42 prior to Katrina, which was what bled them dry).

Oil may or may not stay below that in the near future, but as long as it's down around $60 or so, it bodes very well for their ability to combine those savings with a vastly reduced cost of operations to sock some $$ away and start retiring some of this debt.

Assuming DL manages to exit BK intact and independent, they have a darned good chance to emerge strong and simply get stronger.

'course, I'll bet there are at least THREE posts when I get up in the morning decrying this as total baloney and heresy.

Let's see who's right, oh ... around July next year.

- litz
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1496
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Delta Creditors Agree With Delta

Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 20):
Delta's management team, on the other hand, has no credibility. One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.

Surprise, surprise, surprise, there goes USAirPlatinum shoving his foot in his mouth YET AGAIN!! You ought to at least know what you are talking about before you say it. DL's management team is highly respected in the industry for the phenominal job they have done turning delta around in a unique way, in such a short time. Their prompt handling of the bankruptcy process has earned them respect. Their plan holds far more clout with the creditors because the creditors understand that it carries the potential for a long-term relationship between those companies and DL, rather than the quick fix option that US is offering.
Good goes around!

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