Australia1
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Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:33 pm

Commercial aircraft are used all the time for military charters, but apart from Australian pilots dispute, have military aircraft been used for commercial purposes?

it has come to our attention, that the Royal New Zealand airforce has 2 x 752's that seem to do very little.

In light of Air NZ's announcement to cutting back trans-Tasman services at both NZ & Freedom Air, surely New Zealand tourism will suffer dramatically (& Australian tourism to a lesser extent), with greatly increased average airfares.

Perhaps, the NZ govt should allow 1 or both of these 752's to be made available for commercial charters on a commercial basis, perhaps over routes that NZ(inc Freedom), QF, EK etc. can't or don't wish to fly, even if only for a small number off hours a week.

There are plenty of thin routes between Australia & New Zealand, that we'd like to operate, if we could find a suitable aircraft, that didn't have to be guaranteed for 200 hours for 6 months.

Not everyone wants to fly into AKL, WLG or CHC !!!

With 752 range some longer routes could also be flown between eg. ADL, PER & New Zealand nonstop (not ADL/AKL or PER/AKL) on a low cost no frills charter basis.

Pax these days, don't want to have to change aircraft/terminals to fly short distances. In many cases if no nonstop flight, they won't travel, period.

If 1 or both of these 752's were required for war, surely other airlines would be glad to pick up these pax. Airlines would surely be glad to sign contracts on this basis.

Any insurance issues with military aircraft, could surely be easily worked out.

Pax would be surely happy to fly an aircraft that NZ prime minister finds ok.

Comments ?
 
JakTrax
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:41 pm

PIA is currently using PAF Hercs for pax duties while it sorts its problems out. They are restricted to internals.

Karl
 
Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 1):
PIA is currently using PAF Hercs for pax duties while it sorts its problems out. They are restricted to internals.

Ok then, it can be done, it just government will. I guess in New Zealand, they don't want 2 government airlines, RNZAF & NZ seen to be competing.

The RNZAF 752's travel all over the world & can there be any problem flying between New Zealand & Australia on a commerical charter basis ?
 
Stealthz
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:25 pm

And to ensure that all those extra seats are filled, it would be impractical to rely on existing industry resources so many of those govt employed workers in CentreLink offices could be transferred to ticketing and booking duties.
Oh no, that would be govt interference in the professional travel agency business wouldn't it?

Honestly I have found many of your concepts & theories entertaining.. but entertaining is all!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
OHLHD
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:42 pm

I do not know if that counts but Tupolev designed the Tu 134 for the Army first before making it a passenger plane.
 
Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
And to ensure that all those extra seats are filled, it would be impractical to rely on existing industry resources so many of those govt employed workers in CentreLink offices could be transferred to ticketing and booking duties.
Oh no, that would be govt interference in the professional travel agency business wouldn't it?

Honestly I have found many of your concepts & theories entertaining.. but entertaining is all!

Sorry don't get it ???

R u saying it can't be done ? If so why ?
 
777ER
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 5):
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
And to ensure that all those extra seats are filled, it would be impractical to rely on existing industry resources so many of those govt employed workers in CentreLink offices could be transferred to ticketing and booking duties.
Oh no, that would be govt interference in the professional travel agency business wouldn't it?

Honestly I have found many of your concepts & theories entertaining.. but entertaining is all!

Sorry don't get it ???

R u saying it can't be done ? If so why ?

I said this about 24 hours ago and I will say again, Air Force aircraft carry Air Force equipment on board their aircrafts. Air Force aircraft need to be ready for an emergency or an urgent transfer, like what happened when one of the RNZAF B757s dashed at the last minute to NAN to pick up the Fijian Prime Minister five days before the coup started last month. That was while the other B757 was overseas. If the remaining B757 was operating a charter flight then how can it get where its needed urgently? If the planes were used for a commercial charter then all the Airforce eqiupment would need to be removed then re-loaded again when it was needed which could delay it in an emergency. Air Force personal would need to crew it and they only have limited personal to fly each aircraft. What would happen if their crews had done their flying time allowed or where close to their allowed flying time, how would the aircraft get airbourne for its mission? It wouldn't be able to because the crew would need to rest. Its as simple as that. Do you see the RAAF B737s or USAF B727s, B757s and B747s jets being used for commercial flights? No you don't because of the Airforce equipment on board those aircraft.
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Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:37 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 6):
If the remaining B757 was operating a charter flight then how can it get where its needed urgently?

You hardly need a 752 to pick up 1 person, a small corporate jet would be a much better & cheaper option !!!

Quoting 777ER (Reply 6):
Do you see the RAAF B737s or USAF B727s, B757s and B747s jets being used for commercial flights?

I don't think any of these have a full compliment of pax seats. We believe the RNZAF 752's came from Transavai with full compliment of seats, which were probably high density seating. Apparently, only 1st few rows have been replaced with some sort of business/1st class seats.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 6):
If the planes were used for a commercial charter then all the Airforce eqiupment would need to be removed then re-loaded again when it was needed which could delay it in an emergency. Air Force personal would need to crew it and they only have limited personal to fly each aircraft. What would happen if their crews had done their flying time allowed or where close to their allowed flying time, how would the aircraft get airbourne for its mission?

We understand that these aircraft, are very similar to when they arrived from Transavai except for paint job.

It charter was a simple out & back from NZ, then same crew could fly aircraft back to base & if necessary another crew could take over, no big deal.

(do military crew have same duty time constrants at civilian crew? Doubt it? Can't imagine in a war, captain saying can't fly, over time !!! )

Don't think your responses have been very well thought thru.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 5):
Sorry don't get it ???

Sure it could be done!
Should it be done, that is a whole different question..
My point, that was apparently beyond you, was that if commercial organisations make commercial decisions, should governments step in and offer an alternate?
You claim, or at least imply both with this and your previous identity that you work in the travel industry, how would you feel if the govt turned CentreLink (the Aust. employment and social security agency) with their nicely outfitted offices into travel agencies because someone considered your organisation was not selling enough plane tickets to tourists.

As other posters have said, airforces have airliner type aircraft for a variety of reasons, boosting tourist numbers is generally not one of them.
(1989 pilot crisis was a rare exception)

Cheers.

P.S., some of Australia's B707 have passenger configurations available and I believe that will also be a possibility with the RAAF's new KC-30B MRTT, Should these also comprise part of your "Air Force Airlines"?
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
777ER
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 7):

You obviously don't understand that an Airforce is an airforce with its fleet on stand by 24/7 incase of an emergency or urgent transfer and not a charter company with spare planes that can be use anytime 24/7

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 7):
do military crew have same duty time constrants at civilian crew? Doubt it? Can't imagine in a war, captain saying can't fly, over time !!! )

An Aircrew is an Aircrew with same restrictions. Needing an Air Force plane during a war is a perfect example of why Air Force planes CAN'T be used for charter flights. When an RNZAF B757 flew to the UK, the plane needed to make over night stops for crew rest, as per International rules

As another poster said

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
Honestly I have found many of your concepts & theories entertaining.. but entertaining is all!

 checkmark 
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Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
An Aircrew is an Aircrew with same restrictions. Needing an Air Force plane during a war is a perfect example of why Air Force planes CAN'T be used for charter flights. When an RNZAF B757 flew to the UK, the plane needed to make over night stops for crew rest, as per International rules

in times of war (& other times it's convenient) rules go out the window.

Obviously, at your age(16-20) u don't understand that rules are there to be broken !!!

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
You obviously don't understand that an Airforce is an airforce with its fleet on stand by 24/7 incase of an emergency or urgent transfer and not a charter company with spare planes that can be use anytime 24/7



& how often is that likely, hardly ever & airlines would queue up to get a contract to fill in if RNZAF 2 x 757 jets were ever needed in an emergency or war !!!

I would have thought NZ reducing NZ & Freedom service across the Tasman was a major emergency for the NZ eceonomy seeing it relies so much on international tourism !!!
 
Stealthz
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Australia1 (Thread starter):
In light of Air NZ's announcement to cutting back trans-Tasman services at both NZ & Freedom Air, surely New Zealand tourism will suffer dramatically (& Australian tourism to a lesser extent), with greatly increased average airfares.



Quoting Australia1 (Reply 10):
I would have thought NZ reducing NZ & Freedom service across the Tasman was a major emergency for the NZ eceonomy seeing it relies so much on international tourism !!!

So be it, if NZ tourism will suffer so badly because the airlines insist on commercially viable returns on their investment then the industry was in deep trouble anyway and not sustainable.

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 10):
airlines would queue up to get a contract to fill in if RNZAF 2 x 757 jets were ever needed in an emergency or war !!!

If that business was so lucrative as to get carriers queing up to fill the need NZ, QF and others would still be providing it.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Cadet57
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting Australia1 (Thread starter):
t has come to our attention

Who's attention?

Quoting Australia1 (Thread starter):
Pax would be surely happy to fly an aircraft that NZ prime minister finds ok.

Pax really dont give a shit so long as the ticket is cheap.

Quoting Australia1 (Thread starter):
Comments ?

Learn to type.

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 7):
We understand that these aircraf

Who's we?

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 10):
Obviously, at your age(16-20) u don't understand that rules are there to be broken !!!

Obviously at your age (36-45) you have yet to learn to not type like a 13 year old in an AOL chat room.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 11):
If that business was so lucrative as to get carriers queing up to fill the need NZ, QF and others would still be providing it.

QF & NZ are high cost airlines !!!!

Maybe that's why yanks are buying QF to make it efficient & make some big bucks out of it ???
 
bucky707
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 7):
(do military crew have same duty time constrants at civilian crew? Doubt it? Can't imagine in a war, captain saying can't fly, over time !!! )



Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
An Aircrew is an Aircrew with same restrictions.

Not true, at least not with the U.S. Air Force. Pretty much every rule has a waiver authority. Add to that the rules are much more lenient, at least with regards to crew duty restrictions, than the FAA rules. We used to routinely fly 14.5 hour flights without an augmented crew in my unit. Once flew a 16.5 without extra crew. That one needed a waiver, but the proper authority issued the waiver so we did it. Operational needs pretty much rule all.
 
Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:32 am

ok getting back on topic ...

perhaps RNZAF didn't actually need 2 x752's but now they have them, shouldn't they be sued for benefit of the country ?
 
Cadet57
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 15):
shouldn't they be sued for benefit of the country

No I dont think they should be SUED, but maybe they should be USED for the benefit of the country...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 12):
Who's attention?

So you accuse people of using poor grammar? Get your own spelling right before accusing others. What a childish post.

Regarding the topic:

TAME, a passenger airline of Ecuador, is run by the Air Force and competes with other privately-owned carriers. Interesting situation.


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Stealthz
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Australia1 (Reply 15):
perhaps RNZAF didn't actually need 2 x752's but now they have them, shouldn't they be sued for benefit of the country ?

I know you meant USED,

They are being used for the good of the country, the operational needs of the RNZAF and the NZ Government may not always seem clear to you. But they are there.

If you are so worried about the state of the NZ tourism industry you could use your undoubted skills as a travel professional to sell your clients on the value of a vacation in that beautiful part of the world. Oh and as a professional you will of course know that value and low cost are not always the same thing!

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Australia1
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RE: Commercial Jets Used For Military, Why Not V.v.?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 18):
low cost

low cost helps tourism industry !!

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