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OA260
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LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:53 pm

Last week I flew FRA to DUB in C class. I was seated in 3C and there was a woman that boarded and was told to sit in 3D. She seemed to know the crew and was chatting with them. About 20 minutes before landing she got up and I thought she was going to the bathroom. Then I saw her talking to the F/A and then enter the cockpit. She stayed in there for the landing. Is this allowed these days for a passenger to sit in the cock pit on landing? Even if she was a friend of the crew or off duty staff member?
 
goldorak
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:28 pm

There has been previous similar discussions on A.net about this, but briefly it's normally forbidden, this rule being stictly applied in the US, but in Europe, for some airlines, it's more at the Captain discretion. If you don't know somebody in the crew or if you're not a crew member from another airline (so in general if you are "just a passenger"), it's very unlikely that you will go to the cockpit. But even in Europe, it may vary between airlines. I know BA never accept somebody in the cockpit even if you are the best friend of the captain.
 
Cadet57
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
She seemed to know the crew and was chatting with them.

Possible FA/Capt/FO/ CSA riding non-rev prehaps?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:54 pm

What's the problem? Not every airline comes from Paranoialand.

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
B747-437B
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:01 pm

Understand that there are rules and there is reality. If you know the right people anything is possible.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
larspl
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:19 pm

and understand that that specific company may have rules allowing certain people in the cockpit.

you have laws and rules, and in europe there are no laws against people in the front desk
facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
 
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OA260
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 3):
What's the problem? Not every airline comes from Paranoialand.

Axel

I wanted to know the ''facts'' on the rules , there is no problem if it is not against the rules.

Quoting LarSPL (Reply 5):
in europe there are no laws against people in the front desk

Thanks that is what I wanted to know .
 
LHR777
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 1):
I know BA never accept somebody in the cockpit even if you are the best friend of the captain.

Since when? I've flown flight-deck jumpseat on BA, without being a friend of the crew, including the captain!
 
sean377
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 7):
Since when? I've flown flight-deck jumpseat on BA, without being a friend of the crew, including the captain!

Me too, but it was before 9/11. I have jumpseated on one of their UK subsideries since 9/11 however.
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man... Landing is the first!
 
zvezda
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:40 am

SU definitely still allows cockpit visitors but, of course, only to Russian speakers. As long as I spot traffic before the pilots do, they let me stay for the landing. Landing at PVG, the pilots kept asking each other (in Russian) "What did he say?" because the Russian pilots and Chinese ATC couldn't understand each others' accents in English. I kept answering them, so after a while they put me on the radio. Big grin
 
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OA260
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
"What did he say?" because the Russian pilots and Chinese ATC couldn't understand each others' accents in English. I kept answering them, so after a while they put me on the radio.

Jesus, if I fly SU I want you there Zvezda in case the SU pilots cant understand the directions.

Linksmø Kalëdø ir Laimingø Naujøjø Metø
 
zvezda
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Jesus, if I fly SU I want you there Zvezda in case the SU pilots cant understand the directions.

It was a little scary. The Chinese ATC couldn't understand us very well either until I got on the radio. In general, I think this is getting better. The younger pilots at SU speak better English and the Chinese ATC staff also speak better English every year. Accents aren't so thick as they used to be.
 
SNATH
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
Landing at PVG, the pilots kept asking each other (in Russian) "What did he say?" because the Russian pilots and Chinese ATC couldn't understand each others' accents in English.

Oh dear! The thing is that it's only in China that they have this issue... There was a story a few years ago about a Russian plane (I don't think it was SU though...) trying to land at the old ATH. After seeking for clarification multiple times on ATC commands, and not really obeying others, the pilot finally said that he had the runway in sight. Unfortunately, the "runway" was a major street in Athens... thankfully, the ATC managed to convince him to go around...

Tony
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theginge
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:57 am

Nothing wrong with that if they had the relevent permissions.

Company personel are allowed in the cockpit if for example they have an operational need to go in there. For example engineers, operations staff and anone else who it would be considered useful for them to have access as part of their job to see what goes on up there.
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:34 am

Before 9/11, Martinair and I think it was MEA offered little kids, (maybe 8-14) to sit in the cockpit with them during the flight but not during takeoff and landing. I remember someone just asked the pilot if he could watch him fly the plane and the pilot was amazed and said YES in a very enthusiastic voice.

MP and ME.......or was it MP and RJ....hmm...

Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year,

MEACEDAR
 
ferrypilot
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 7):
Since when? I've flown flight-deck jumpseat on BA, without being a friend of the crew, including the captain!

Yes I've been on the flight deck on at least two occasions on BA (757 & 747) without knowing the crew, ...although I must admit it was probably at least 15 years ago.
 
warren747sp
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:59 am

I was lucky enough to have sat in a Dragon Air A330 which landed in Kai Tak a few months before it closed. Maybe I will try some of the airlines now in Africa to see if I can sit in the cockpit for the experience.
747SP
 
flyinTLow
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):

I wanted to know the ''facts'' on the rules , there is no problem if it is not against the rules.

Hey there. For Lufthansa, the Operations Manual Part A (also called OMA) is the rulebook for everything, and it says that everyone in the cockpit during flight has to have a Lufthansa ID. Further, this is also at the pilots' disgression. So an ID alone wont get you in, but if you don't have one you might be lucky if you have a friendly captain in a good mood.
However it is supposedly against the law to have anyone that is not part of the flight crew in the cockpit on flights to / over US airspace.

I personally got a chance 3 or 4 times, but I also have the ID and the guys up there enjoy hearing some stories about LH's pilot school.

Cheers,

Thilo
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
andz
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:51 pm

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 16):
Maybe I will try some of the airlines now in Africa to see if I can sit in the cockpit for the experience.

Oh dear, another one who thinks there are no regulations here.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Lospaziale
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:26 pm

If you're lucky on the national flights in Italy and Spain you could enjoy the landing in the cockpit... it happened to me couple of time recently, but after saying that I was a student in aeronautical engineering
lo spaziale
 
JetSetter001
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Thats how it works in Germany: You need to be checked by the means of some sort of air security law (Luftsicherheitsgesetzt in german). That states that you don´t have a criminal background etc. and is the same kinda check you need to pass to sit in an commercial airliners cockpit.

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 17):
has to have a Lufthansa ID

This check is also mandatory to get an Lufthansa ID (and employment at LH of course).But even then it remains the pilot´s choice. I´m at Lufthansa Flight School and were only able to jumpseat after they issued my ID (which took some 6 weeks) even if I would have tried...
Oh and by the way, flights from and to the US are, of course, a bit more strict...in fact only the chef-stewardess is allowed in the cockpit but no one else.
 
L1011Lover
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting JetSetter001 (Reply 20):
Oh and by the way, flights from and to the US are, of course, a bit more strict...in fact only the chef-stewardess is allowed in the cockpit but no one else.

Sorry, but that´s nonsense. Every single member of the on-duty cabin crew is allowed to enter the flight deck at any time. Regardless if flying the Purser position or a Flight Attendant position.

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
turkee
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Is this allowed these days for a passenger to sit in the cock pit on landing? Even if she was a friend of the crew or off duty staff member?

QF allow staff traveling as pax into the flight deck for the trip, with proper authorisation (ie. all the seats in the back are required for paying passengers, and QF ops okay it, and the staff member holds a valid air-side ASIC). Not a common occurence, but nothing really unusual either.
 
DeC
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:25 pm

Even if they DID allow someone in the cockpit in some flights, with topics like this you can kiss the opportunity goodbye..
DEC
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting JetSetter001 (Reply 20):
Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 17):
has to have a Lufthansa ID

This check is also mandatory to get an Lufthansa ID (and employment at LH of course).But even then it remains the pilot´s choice. I´m at Lufthansa Flight School and were only able to jumpseat after they issued my ID (which took some 6 weeks) even if I would have tried...
Oh and by the way, flights from and to the US are, of course, a bit more strict...in fact only the chef-stewardess is allowed in the cockpit but no one else.

The rule in LH used to be that only flight crew (on duty or off duty) or engineers/mechanics (also on duty as well as off duty) were allowed to fly jump seat in the flight deck. The reason was that they expected you to know how to operate the safety equipment and to know how to behave in there during flight (e.g. sterile cockpit below 10.000 ft).
The same applied to sitting in an F/A jump seat. They wanted somebody there, who in an emergency would know how to open the door and to inflate the escape slide and generally help during an evacuation.
Flight crew get trained in it and since we are maintaining the emergency equipment, we are supposed to know how it operates.
LH administrative staff could not sit in a jump seat, no matter how senior they were.
This were the rules when I did my apprenticeship with LH many years ago.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DernierVirage
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:26 am

With AF, I have 2 times been invited to visit the flight deck (both times were after 9/11), but each time it was the chief purser who asked as I have never made any request myself. One time was just at cruising altitude from GVA - CDG (lovely summer evening, which was great), the other time was for the landing at CDG arriving from Beijing on a 772 (but sadly, there was heavy fog, so I saw nearly nothing !).

Generally, I notice quite frequently visitors going to the AF flight decks for take-offs and landings on long haul flights, but I have a feeling that they are often relatives of the crew, or maybe AF personnel.
 
Vimanav
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:02 am

When I was working for LH (sales), of the 100 odd times that I flew LH, I must have been up in the cockpit for take-off and/or landing 90% of the time (this was of course pre 9/11). Usually just showed my id-card to the cabin crew who in turn had a word with the Captain and I'd be allowed in a jiffy. The only time I was refused was (very understandably) when they had a couple of holidaying LH pilots in the cockpit (having wangled that with the Captain before I got a word in). Even on that occasion, they invited me to the cockpit during the flight.

I always found the LH crew very friendly, often chatty and have become very good friends with some of them. They often gave you a head phone to listen in to ATC and one even took a slight detour to show me the LH Training Center at Seeheim (QSH) after T/o from EDDF. While discussing CB clouds with another, he actually switched on the "Fasten Seat Belt" sign and took me for a look up close at one - a spectacular experience!

Great guys... LH cockpit crew. If all goes well I should be on an MD11 freighter with a couple of my friends from LH cockpits sometime early next year doing a FRA-NBO-JNB vv.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Joge
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:00 am

I've been on several jumpseat takeoffs, flights and landings. Both pre and post 9/11. I belive I've had a bit of luck there and I believe it's still possible to get into jumpseat ride.

But what I don't believe in is all that anti-terrorism BS, which really doesn't help anyway. The terrorists most probably know what they need to do. Did the terrorists on 9/11 ask nicely the crew if they could have a ride on the jumpseat? No. If someone wants to blow up the plane in the air or hijack it, there will always be a way to do it. No jumpseating needed for that.

-Joge
Bula!
 
wilco737
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RE: LH Allowing Passengers In Cockpit For Landing?

Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Joge (Reply 27):

well spoken Joge!

I am a pilot at LH and sometimes you have people on the jumpseat! The books says that it is allowed for airline employees, but the final decision rests with the flight crew...
The company wants us to be very strict with it... not taking everybody into the cockpit... And it doesnt happen very often... Only once in a while...
But we dont have a law like in the US or UK where it is not allowed at all...

Real text from the LH book:

"No persons other than flight crew members assigned to a fllight shall have admission to or carried on the flight deck unless that person is an operating crew member or is defined by the following regulations.
For security reasons the admissionin to the flight deck shoould be handled in a restrictive manner. In exceptional cases, e.g. if ther eis no seat available in the pasenger cabin following persons MAY be transported on the flight deck for mandatory operational or professional reasons.
The commander has the final decistion regarding the admisstioni to the flight deck. In any case the irrespective of the aboce regulations the power and duties of the commander according LuftSiG (Luftsicherheitsgesetz) and §3 LuftVO (nautische Gewalt) are unaffected. He must ensure the highest possible degree of security for the entire flight."




WILCO737


[Edited 2006-12-26 22:13:33]