pgtravel
Posts: 237
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Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:26 am

It's official. The DOT has issued its order (pdf) saying that Virgin America is foreign controlled and won't be allowed to fly.

Check out the appendices in the back of the order where they have diagrams of the ownership structure. (I also included a copy of the first diagram in my blog if you'd rather not open a PDF.) That is one heck of a confusing structure that was probably just begging to be shot down.

They also say that the license agreement to use the Virgin America name is too restricting on the business so that it gives Branson some measure of control that he can't have.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:28 am

LOL.  Smile

JetBluefan1
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:29 am

In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2860
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:30 am

Being serious now, what's going to happen to the planes that they've already received and the people they hired?

JetBluefan1
 
Eagle11
Posts: 163
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:30 am

This is very interesting.

Surely it's time for the lawyers to get involved now...
"The Eagle has landed"
 
DL4EVR
Posts: 635
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:32 am

And justice prevails  Smile
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:33 am

Well hate to say I told you so, though I told you so.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

I for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed.

Regards,

E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
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United787
Posts: 2197
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Thread starter):
Check out the appendices in the back of the order where they have diagrams of the ownership structure.

Holy confusing...

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States.

I totally agree.

I doubt that Virgin America will give up with this ruling. I would bet that they would change their structure of ownership to comply...

What is the bottom number of how much of the company is owned by US Citizens?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 7):
I for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed.

I agree as long as they follow the laws...they didn't...

[Edited 2006-12-27 20:38:47]
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 3350
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Well, while we're being honest, we don't need all the ones that DO have licenses either.

I wasn't on either side of this Virgin America thing, but it's kinda funny hearing all the 'woo-hoo's' from people who work at some of the carriers that would be better off deceased or otherwise swallowed up.

Chris in NH
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Maybe we should have said that about B6 back in 1999/2000.....its a free country.... sarcastic 
"Up the Irons!"
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:44 am

Ahhh, The US of A, the land of opportunity... white 
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 10):
Maybe we should have said that about B6 back in 1999/2000.....its a free country....

And yet this is a Virgin America thread. Its amazing how JetBlue works its way into every discussion.  duck   stirthepot 
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Says the new kid on the block?  eyebrow 

The DOT is not making a statement regarding airline (over)competition but about ownership regulations that Virgin America needs to prove they comply with.

If Virgin America can show they are in compliance with federal cabatoge rules, they are fully entitled to fly domestic passengers.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
Being serious now, what's going to happen to the planes that they've already received and the people they hired?

Very good question. But surely they knew this was coming...
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
KPWMSpotter
Posts: 451
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:47 am

What can Virgin America do now?

I really doubt that they are going to just give up on their planes and investments they've made so far. Can they appeal the decision, or will they have to re-organize their staffing structure and give it another go at applying?

Even if the market and the business community has shown that it is not supportive of a new airline, I don't see Branson as one to just give up...
I reject your reality and substitute my own...
 
JetBlueAUS
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
The DOT is not making a statement regarding airline (over)competition but about ownership regulations that Virgin America needs to prove they comply with.

Let me rephrase: I back the DOT's decision 100% regarding foreign control. However, I am expressing my own opinion when it comes to another receiving the OK for them to start operating in the United States
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 15):
What can Virgin America do now?

They can reorganize their investment capital such that controlling interest are within federal cabatoge regulations. After which point, they can make a reapplication.

This is hardly the "end" of Virgin America, but it does not help them one bit. It will likely delay the start of revenue service by several months.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 12):

And yet this is a Virgin America thread. Its amazing how JetBlue works its way into every discussion.

And the second you jumped into the thread you guaranteed that would be the case given your user name.  Wink
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:55 am

We don´t have american LCC (?) flying in Europe, so I guess it´s fair, let´s see what LRB will do next...intresting!

Just my   

Micke// 

[Edited 2006-12-27 21:00:02]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
FA4B6
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:55 am

"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 7):
for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed

If 9-11 would not have happened, the airlines would be prosperous and VA
would be allowed. Note all the upstarts since de-reg. Most, of course, are gone but there has been quite a few to take to the skys since 1978.
All the carriers have been into hard times least WN. I see now that AA is going to take a loss in the fourth Q of 2006, so this no to VA thing is not a surprise.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
gh123
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:59 am

Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.
 
DL4EVR
Posts: 635
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

...says the Brit.
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:05 am

Message clear: don't invest your filthy foreign money in this country!

So much for free enterprise.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 12):

And yet this is a Virgin America thread. Its amazing how JetBlue works its way into every discussion.



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):

And the second you jumped into the thread you guaranteed that would be the case given your user name.  Wink



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
The DOT is not making a statement regarding airline (over)competition but about ownership regulations that Virgin America needs to prove they comply with.

If Virgin America can show they are in compliance with federal cabatoge rules, they are fully entitled to fly domestic passengers.

 checkmark 

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 16):
Let me rephrase: I back the DOT's decision 100% regarding foreign control. However, I am expressing my own opinion when it comes to another receiving the OK for them to start operating in the United States

...and some are expressing their own opinion about your comments and about B6... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

The U.S. domestic market is extremely competitive already. We have so many LCCs already and many of them compete on on board product already such as B6 FL WN and F9. Overall the mainline carriers on board product pretty much sucks so how can they "deteriorate"?
 
OH-LGA
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 16):
However, I am expressing my own opinion when it comes to another receiving the OK for them to start operating in the United States

As long as you make it clear that the two are separate, as you just did. Otherwise you're putting words in a government authority's mouth - which is not cool.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberalist (of the IR variety) when it comes to commercial aviation and foreign ownership rules. My personal opinion is that an application should not be denied on such grounds and such rules and laws regarding such are archaic. All these other industries are allowed to globalize in such a fashion (cars, agriculture, pharmaceutical) and yet we're sticks in the mud over a specific industry. National security my foot, since when did an airline as an organization ever pose a threat to national security? (If you can provide an example, I would be all eyes/ears in the most respectful way possible, I'm being serious here)

Nevertheless - this decision was expected, so we'll see what happens from here.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 19):
We don´t have american LCC (?) flying in Europe, so I guess it´s fair

However, unless I'm mistaken, there is absolutely nothing to stop Joe Schmoe from starting an airline in Europe and maintaining complete control of it from the US.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

No, more available seats are just going to saturate an already competitive market and further screw things up.

Good job DOJ- screw you Fred Reid.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

deteriorate? what was so revolutionary with Virgin America?

Look, you may not agree with the law, but the law is the law. Virgin should have known better to begib with.

This just shows that the Virgin American business case was weak. Otherwise, you have tons of domestic investment firms lined up.

Sorry, but the thought of too much competition needs to be addressed. There are too many carriers here and not enough demand for fares that airlines can make enough return on their investment.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4260
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:20 am

Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT, we don't need anymore airlines in the US"?
 
ual747-600
Posts: 591
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

What does airline ownership have to do with open skies? The Europeans have added airline ownership to the open skies equation, where it wasn't ever a condition before in bilateral talks. The reason, European airlines want access to the US market and the US Airlines (with support of Gov't) doesn't want them in. It's that simple.
 
ENU
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:30 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):
Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT, we don't need anymore airlines in the US"?

 bigthumbsup 
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2860
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):
Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT, we don't need anymore airlines in the US"?

I find it funny that B6 was started before the dot com bust and 9/11 - where more capacity was needed and profits were at an all-time high.

And B6 isn't foreign owned  Smile

JetBluefan1
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

Can a US company own an airline that operates within Europe? If so, our laws ought to be changed to permit foreign ownership of a US-based airline.

We seem to have no problem with foreign ownership of the automobile industry, can't see why we are so protective of the airlines.


Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):
Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT, we don't need anymore airlines in the US"?

Yes, their embracing of protectionism is rather remarkable, isn't it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
joelfreak
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:33 am

As I have said before, anyone who thinks VA was not prepared for this, and wont have either a lawsuit or a new ownership organization within a week is kidding themselves.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 28):

However, unless I'm mistaken, there is absolutely nothing to stop Joe Schmoe from starting an airline in Europe and maintaining complete control of it from the US.

I don't believe that's true at all. I believe that certain US airlines had certain rights grandfathered in (some as a result of the second World War), but I do not believe that any US airline can operate freely entirely within the EU.

Steve
 
Ken777
Posts: 9046
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:36 am

I think that RB is smart enough to understand that his preferred option wouldn't fly. Option 2 is probably ready to go, maybe even Options 3, 4 & 5.
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting DL4EVR (Reply 23):
...says the Brit.
With the exception of Bermuda II, Britain has embraced globalisation and free global trade more so than any other country in Europe, the Americas and arguably the world (even though there isn't a level playing field with other countries which I find annoying).

Take our airline industry: We have an Irish carrier (Ryanair) carrying more British passengers domestically and within Europe than any UK carrier (including BA!). We have a Canadian carrier (Zoom) setting up a wholly owned UK subsidiary operating out of Gatwick to destinations across the world. We have a German carrier (Air Berlin) operating domestic flights and setting up a hub at London Stansted.

The British airline industry is incredibly competitive - ask BA if you want proof. The threat from FR and U2 helped push BA to near bankruptcy and consequently forced BA to fundamentally change its operations in order to compete. Thankfully BA is a more lean, efficient and more profitable airline. I know Bermuda II is an exception, but we need to remember that it is a creation of the 1970s/80s. We live in a very different world today, and I agree that it should be scrapped. However, I don't see why it should be when there isn't a level playing field. If European and other carriers can invest freely into American carriers, then American carriers should be able to do the same AND have free access to Heathrow.

And as for determining whether the US needs another airline or not...let the market decide!

[Edited 2006-12-27 21:47:29]
 
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OA260
Posts: 21027
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

Exactly what I was thinking. They want all the freedoms when they are in Europe but when Europeans want to enterprise in USA its closed doors!!!

Branson has done alot for the Anglo/American cause, maybe he will wake up and smell the roses now !!!
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
They can reorganize their investment capital such that controlling interest are within federal cabatoge regulations. After which point, they can make a reapplication.

If they do (which I suspect) do they only have to make a reapplication to the DOT, or do they have to make a reapplication to the DOT and FAA?
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
We seem to have no problem with foreign ownership of the automobile industry, can't see why we are so protective of the airlines.

Maybe those laws should be changed to match the DOT's laws for aviation?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
incitatus
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 32):
The reason, European airlines want access to the US market and the US Airlines (with support of Gov't) doesn't want them in. It's that simple.

No, most European airlines do NOT want access to the US domestic market. Ownership rules is just a distraction thrown on the table by British negotiators that want to muck up the opening of Heathrow to all US carriers for as long as possible.
Stop pop up ads
 
USADreamliner
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:33 pm

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):
Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT, we don't need anymore airlines in the US"?

Ha,ha,ha!
Oh,men, finally somebody with some common sense.
100% with you.

Well, you know, in this country the foreigner is always the bad boy.
XenophobiAir could be a good name...
 
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solnabo
Posts: 5015
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RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:51 am

There´s no way an american carrier could survive in Europe, almost every country have their own LCC

Micke//  

[Edited 2006-12-27 21:56:18]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting DL4EVR (Reply 23):
...says the Brit.

What? you don't like us sticking our noses in your affairs?  Wink

What a stupid inane law to have. Whats the point?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
FlyKev
Crew
Posts: 1295
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:34 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:56 am

As much as I saw this coming, I don't think this is the last you will bwe hearing of Virgin America.
They will fly with passengers eventually.

Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Exactly what I was thinking. They want all the freedoms when they are in Europe but when Europeans want to enterprise in USA its closed doors!!!

Exactly what freedoms do US airlines want in Europe?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Virgin America Denied

Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:04 am

As I've said before on VA threads, the arguments that were originally put to the DOT by CO (and others possibly) worked on this occasion. That means for a some money spent by CO on lawyers they have delayed VA's entry into the US market. That's just good business sense by CO. VA will have to go back and rework their proposal to secure DOT approval, which I believe they will do. This decision merely dealys VA's entry, it doesn't kill it off.

Branson may enter the US market, but if VA doesn't do well he won't keep it. Anyone remember V2 (Virgin Sun)? That didn't make enough money and so he sold it to First Choice in Nov 2001 and the a/c were returned to lessors.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.

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