8herveg
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Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:21 pm

Could someone please tell me how many 767s BA has.

How many have been 'dusked' to long-haul configuration?

How many are still in short-haul configuration?

Will the remaining short haul 767s eventually be 'dusked' to long-haul? I would think BA could open up some new long-haul routes where some money could be made.

Pittsburgh
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Bamako
Djibouti
Sana'a
Lahore
Karachi
Caracas
Bogota
Lima

(I know the last 3 have been flown and ceased recently, however I think they could still work)

Surely there is enough short-haul (A319/20/21s) aircraft around at Heathrow to cover the existing 767 european routes - plus a little bit of re-scheduling?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:23 pm

What does 'dusked' mean......?????
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
What does 'dusked' mean......?????

It means the re-configuration from BA's old 767 long-haul layout of:

First Class
Club World (cradle seats)
World Traveller (without PTVs)

to the new layout of:

Club World (lie-flat seats)
World Traveller Plus
World Traveller (both with PTVs),

to match the rest of the long-haul fleet (without First Class). It was done because not a lot of money was being made in First Class on some of BA's long-haul routes, such as Tel Aviv, Nassau, Providenciales etc, and also the rest of the cabin needed updating!
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Caracas
Bogota
Lima

(I know the last 3 have been flown and ceased recently, however I think they could still work)

Out of curiosity, what makes you think these routes will work, when BA seem to have thought otherwise....
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
Eurohub
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me how many 767s BA has.

Jethro's notes 21 B767 in BA Service with 14 scheduled for disposal (no time frame mentioned)

http://www.jethros.i12.com/fleets/fleet_listings/ba_boeing_b767srs.htm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
How many are still in short-haul configuration?

No idea, but if it helps, I flew G-BNWA MUC-LHR before Christmas and she was definitely still in short-haul config.

Regards,
Eurohub
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 3):
Out of curiosity, what makes you think these routes will work, when BA seem to have thought otherwise....

They did work originally with BA, but as with most of BA's strategies, they decided to put the aircraft on a route where it could make more money, and codeshare with Iberia on these 3 South American routes!

Quoting Eurohub (Reply 4):
No idea, but if it helps, I flew G-BNWA MUC-LHR before Christmas and she was definitely still in short-haul config.

Well of course she was in short-haul config...it was a short-haul route! Lol. Thanks anyway!
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
How many are still in short-haul configuration?

BNWA
BNWB
BNWX
BNWZ
BZHA
BZHB
BZHC

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 5):
They did work originally with BA, but as with most of BA's strategies, they decided to put the aircraft on a route where it could make more money, and codeshare with Iberia on these 3 South American routes!

So what makes you think they will want to operate them again?
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 5):
They did work originally with BA, but as with most of BA's strategies, they decided to put the aircraft on a route where it could make more money,

Lets think about it logically. Why should an airline operate a route and make 'some' money, when they can codeshare with a major partner, with limited risk, and still benefit financially, albeit to a lesser extent? BA aren't a non-profit organisation, and like any sensibly run business (ie, not BMI), they operate where they can make most money as fast as possible, and forge partnerships where the large amount of 'risk' associated with marginal routes can be absorbed by someone else.

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 6):
So what makes you think they will want to operate them again?

Exactly. Really my point is that if BA feel they can make these routes work, they will undoubtedly serve them. Whether they will risk losing more money as the route develops and at the same time justify the expense involved to convert what are essentially airframes planned for disposal remains to be seen.

7L
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 6):
So what makes you think they will want to operate them again?

I don't think BA will want to operate these routes again. I'm just stating what I would LIKE to see. I'm entitled to my own opinion aren't I?

I reckon BA WOULD still operate to these destinations still if they had more aircraft, but until new additional aircraft are received, BA has to operate existing aircraft on routes where money can be made.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):

Erm. Im confused. First it's ...

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I don't think BA will want to operate these routes again.

... and then it's

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I reckon BA WOULD still operate to these destinations still if they had more aircraft,



Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I'm entitled to my own opinion aren't I?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you aren't expressing 'opinion' per se. You have confused us into thinking that what you would like to see happen in an 'ideal world' is enabled by effectively 'dusking' the 767's so that they can operate the routes mentioned. At no time do you suggest or infer that these routes are merely fantasy.

7L
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
LHRjc
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Surely there is enough short-haul (A319/20/21s) aircraft around at Heathrow to cover the existing 767 european routes - plus a little bit of re-scheduling?

Don't BA use 767's on some short haul routes mainly because of the cargo capacity on them, rather than the number of pax ? When they used to operate 767's LHR-MAD last year, the pax loads were often low, but they were usually full of cargo.

I think it's a similar reason why they use 757's on some routes also ?

JC
"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
 
jacobin777
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Pittsburgh
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Bamako
Djibouti
Sana'a
Lahore
Karachi
Caracas
Bogota
Lima

Given the proximity of ISB to LHE...I don't see LHE opening up anytime soon.

Regarding KHI...no European carrier wants to fly there anymore (besides TK)...

At one time, LH, AF, KL, LX (old Swiss Air), Pan Am all used to fly there (I've flown on all them to KHI at one time)....the business is there, but I've heard that the govt. were giving some of these carriers a hard time regarding fees, etc.

Also, some of the carriers flew KHI as a "tag" city or had a "tag on" flight.

For example, KL used to fly AMS-KHI-CMB (Colombo Bandaranaike Int'l)....LX used to fly ZRH-DXB-KHI...

Though there is an AZ office in KHI, I can't recall AZ ever flying there..

AZ office @ KHI..




That being said, I would love to see BA fly KHI.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I don't think BA will want to operate these routes again. I'm just stating what I would LIKE to see. I'm entitled to my own opinion aren't I?

In your first post, you gave a list of destinations where you thought BA could make money. You didn't say anywhere that's what you'd like to see. You're entitled to an opinion, but the way i interpreted your first post was that these routes should be operate by BA, even if they were operated in the past and dropped.

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I reckon BA WOULD still operate to these destinations still if they had more aircraft,

If they had more aircraft, more slots at LHR, more gates at LHR, and if IB went bust, then maybe - I otherwise doubt it.
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 9):
Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):


Erm. Im confused. First it's ...

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I don't think BA will want to operate these routes again.

I meant with the current fleet. Cleary there isn't enough long-haul aircraft to operate both these South American destinations PLUS the new routes where money IS being made, thus putting these aircraft on the money making routes.

Thats why I then went on to say this:

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 9):
Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
I reckon BA WOULD still operate to these destinations still if they had more aircraft,

Once BA orders more aircraft, perhaps/hopefully/maybe, they will return to these South American destinations, so that they can operate these AND the recently added routes where money is being made.

Sorry if I was not clearer before!
 
BA787
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 3):
Out of curiosity, what makes you think these routes will work, when BA seem to have thought otherwise....

 checkmark 

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 5):
They did work originally with BA, but as with most of BA's strategies, they decided to put the aircraft on a route where it could make more money, and codeshare with Iberia on these 3 South American routes

You make it sound as though its a bad thing, if it makes them more money why would they do something that doesn't

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 6):
So what makes you think they will want to operate them again?

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 10):
Don't BA use 767's on some short haul routes mainly because of the cargo capacity on them, rather than the number of pax ? When they used to operate 767's LHR-MAD last year, the pax loads were often low, but they were usually full of cargo.

I think it's a similar reason why they use 757's on some routes also ?

You may be right there, but it isn't the case on all of the 767 operated short haul routes. Most of them are simply because of high PAX demand

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 12):
In your first post, you gave a list of destinations where you thought BA could make money. You didn't say anywhere that's what you'd like to see. You're entitled to an opinion, but the way i interpreted your first post was that these routes should be operate by BA, even if they were operated in the past and dropped

So did I Big grin lol
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 14):
Quoting 8herveg (Reply 5):
They did work originally with BA, but as with most of BA's strategies, they decided to put the aircraft on a route where it could make more money, and codeshare with Iberia on these 3 South American routes

You make it sound as though its a bad thing, if it makes them more money why would they do something that doesn't

I never said anything about it being a bad thing. BA is a business, so of course it is going to change its strategies in order to make the most money.

I'm just saying, I hope it is a temporary thing until BA orders some more long-haul aircraft. But I'm not going to cry about it if they don't return on these routes!!
 
BA787
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 15):
but as with most of BA's strategies

Well correct me if Im wrong, but that sounds a bit like it was meant as a bad thing
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 16):
Well correct me if Im wrong, but that sounds a bit like it was meant as a bad thing

Well take it how you want to. But I think I should know. I was the one who posted the comment!
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:37 am

I flew on BA 767 G-BNWC "City of Frankfurt" from TLV to LHR... 11 years ago  Wow!

What are they using now on TLV flights? 777,757,320?
 
LHRjc
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 18):
What are they using now on TLV flights? 777,757,320?

Depart: LHR - London, United Kingdom (Heathrow)
Arrive: TLV - Tel Aviv-Yafo, Israel (Ben Gurion)

Leg 1:
Depart: LHR 8:30a Terminal: 4
Arrive: TLV 3:10p Terminal: 3
Flight: BA 165 - British Airways
777 - Boeing 777 Passenger
Operating Carrier: British Airways
Total Duration: 4 hours 40 minutes


Depart: LHR - London, United Kingdom (Heathrow)
Arrive: TLV - Tel Aviv-Yafo, Israel (Ben Gurion)

Leg 1:
Depart: LHR 10:30p Terminal: 4
Arrive: TLV 5:25a Terminal: 3
Flight: BA 163 - British Airways
767 - Boeing 767 Passenger
Operating Carrier: British Airways
Total Duration: 4 hours 55 minutes

JC
"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
 
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yowza
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Pittsburgh
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Bamako
Djibouti
Sana'a
Lahore
Karachi
Caracas
Bogota
Lima

While any kind of growth would be nice to see, these destinations are all off the cards for now, at least in my opinion.

Minneapolis: Not enough PAX and no NW partnership.
New Orleans: Seasonal at best.
Bamako: Small expat community, most of whom are French - AF have this.
Djibouti: Far too small a PAX base even AF cut back (2 weekly?)

Sana'a: Possible but IY, EK, GF, QR and RJ offer low prices and decent connections to Europe. Not to mention LH via CAI.

Lahore, Karachi could work if BA smartened up and opened up the route from the right UK city, don't mean to stereotype here but Birgmingham and Leed/Bradford would be the way to go.

Caracas, Bogota, Lima would probably be profitable but there are fatter fish to fry. Perhaps shuffle the metal allocation and start up LHR-LAS, VS seem to be cleaning up.

YOWza
 
Nedson
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:02 am

Haven't QANTAS got quite a few of BA's 763s?
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:18 am

The only one I could see them making a profit on is pittsburgh, minneapolis is just to dominant of Northwest european flights.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting Nedson (Reply 21):
Haven't QANTAS got quite a few of BA's 763s?

I believe 2 or 3. I would like to see RDU. I believe BA could use a 767 dusk to replace the AA flight.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
I believe 2 or 3. I would like to see RDU. I believe BA could use a 767 dusk to replace the AA flight.

I doubt AA would give up the RDU flight. It's an instant profit with subsidisation from GSK, who have a large manufacturing site in Crawley, just down the road from Gatwick.

Quoting Nedson (Reply 21):
Haven't QANTAS got quite a few of BA's 763s?

Yes, 7:

VH-ZXA (ex. G-BNWE)
VH-ZXB (ex. G-BNWF)
VH-ZXC (ex. G-BNWG)
VH-ZXD (ex. G-BNWJ)
VH-ZXE (ex. G-BNWK)
VH-ZXF (ex. G-BNWL)
VH-ZXG (ex. G-BNWP)
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):

Will the remaining short haul 767s eventually be 'dusked' to long-haul? I would think BA could open up some new long-haul routes where some money could be made.

Pittsburgh
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Bamako
Djibouti
Sana'a
Lahore
Karachi
Caracas
Bogota
Lima

(I know the last 3 have been flown and ceased recently, however I think they could still work)

I don't think LIM, BOG, or CCS are in, as the competition is too stiff from some of the other european airlines (IB especially) Bamako, Dijibouti and Lahore I don't think could provide the consistent markets needed to justify the flights, Pittsburgh doesn't offer the O & D market or the connections to justify a flight, MSP is already covered by NW, and without the NW connection network, MSP just isn't big enough for 2 london flights. MSY couldn't sustain this flight either.

Karachi is an interesting idea, and probably could work, IMHO.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
I believe 2 or 3. I would like to see RDU. I believe BA could use a 767 dusk to replace the AA flight.

Doesn't AA use a 772 on this flight? How would AA feel about this, they have something of an abundance of aircraft at the moment.



Here is the thing, LHR is a tighly slot controlled airport. British is limited in gates and in landing slots out of this main hub, so they have to make the most with what they've got there. While it would nice to use the 767s to expand their longhaul network, and while they need something smaller than the 777 for their longhaul operations, however, they also need their feeder network in europe to funnel pax into LHR for their longhaul flights. Taking the larger 767s off the shorthaul routes and replacing them with smaller A320s or 757s cuts down on how many pax they can get into LHR. If they had more gates and slots, as well as more mid-size long haul jets, then some of the proposed routes could become more real possibilities.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 12):
should be operate by BA, even if they were operated in the past and dropped.

Just because a route was dropped doesn't mean it was unprofitable. It could simply mean that they could make MORE profit on a different route. I think what the author of the thread is saying is that if they had the aircraft, they could re-open some of these slightly less profitable routes and add to the overall profit.
Good goes around!
 
seanp11
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):

Pittsburgh

If BA were in Star, I could see it working. US has enough mainline to PIT to allow connections to augment PIT's O&D. Instead, they're Oneworld, and the only alliance member that flies to PIT is AA, and they don't fly mainline anymore. PIT does not have enough O&D otherwise.
 
BALAX
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 3):
Out of curiosity, what makes you think these routes will work, when BA seem to have thought otherwise....

Give the guy a break. If the demand is there and the economics of these cities make sense to BA in the future, who's to say they won't try them again. And it is his opinion so let him be.

Back to the topic, you might see Minneapolis/St. Paul in the near future. I know that it is being looked at. What equipment? I have no idea, but all I can think of is Mall of the Americas, therefore a lot of leisure travelers. B767 seems like the right fit for this route.
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 26):
Just because a route was dropped doesn't mean it was unprofitable. It could simply mean that they could make MORE profit on a different route. I think what the author of the thread is saying is that if they had the aircraft, they could re-open some of these slightly less profitable routes and add to the overall profit.

Thankyou! Eventually, after 26 replies, somebody at least UNDERSTANDS what I am saying!

Quoting BALAX (Reply 28):
Give the guy a break. If the demand is there and the economics of these cities make sense to BA in the future, who's to say they won't try them again. And it is his opinion so let him be.

And thankyou again!
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 26):
Just because a route was dropped doesn't mean it was unprofitable. It could simply mean that they could make MORE profit on a different route. I think what the author of the thread is saying is that if they had the aircraft, they could re-open some of these slightly less profitable routes and add to the overall profit.

I didn't say it was unprofitable. I know for a fact that it was profitable. But if they drop it in favour of a more profitable route, then why are they then going to revert back to the less profitable one? Sure we can all talk about "if" they had more aircraft, but they don't, and even when they do place an order, it will more than likely be replace older aircraft.

Bogota, Caracas and Lima would be a long way down the proposed route list, as they are already making money out of it from their codeshare with IB, and don't need to send their own aircraft there. Besides, you need at least two aircraft on the route to fly a daily operation, whereas somewhere like the Middle East and USA (East Coast), can be flown there and back in little over 15 hours, making better use of the aircraft.
 
donder10
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:48 pm

I think BA should start daily flights to Quebec City,N'Djamena,Pyongyang,Windhoek and Banjul all with 777s.What do you guys think?
 
8herveg
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 31):
N'Djamena,Pyongyang

Where are these two places? They sound african and japanese respectively. The other 3 destinations I am in agreement with though!
 
8herveg
Topic Author
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RE: Will BA Ever 'dusk' Its Remaining 767s?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 31):
N'Djamena,Pyongyang

Found them....Chad and North Korea. Lol!

I would think a 5 x weekly service to N'Djamena might work, but a daily 777 may be too much. A 767 would be better.

As for Pyongyang, I think BA would return to Seoul first before it starts a service here. Pyongyang only sees services to Far Eastern destinations currently, so a service to 777 service to London is very unlikely.

Quebec and Banjul are more likely to be flown on with a 767. Quebec is already served with Air Canada, Zoom and Air Transat.

Windhoek may work with a 3 class (CW, WTP, WT) 777 though. (Perhaps only 5 x weekly).

Good thinking though!

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