Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:22 am

Haven´t seen it here. Thought it is worth to post that Lion Air has once again been able to get "rid" of one of their planes in a less-than-favourable-way.

PK-LIJ, a B737-400 (CN 24682), has been written of on December 24th when it overran the runway at Makassar airport, shearing off the landing gear. 162 people on board, no serious injuries. Flight JT792 was on its way from Jakarta to Tolotio via Makassar. Source is JACDEC:

http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm

Makes hull loss No. 4 or 5 for Lion Air... time for Boeing to re-think if Lion Air is a customer they want to deliver their shiny new 739ER to.

[Edited 2006-12-28 16:23:47]
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:55 am

You know you can be an expat pilot and go fly 737's for them with like 300 hrs, no kidding.

Just in case anyone was interested in them  Wink

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
cedarjet
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
You know you can be an expat pilot and go fly 737's for them with like 300 hrs, no kidding.

Really? I know a dude who would go for it. How accurate is the number? You mean, they have lower standards than, say, Cathay, and they'll take you with 1,000 hours including 400 dual time? Or literally, 300 TT? Please elaborate, depending on your numbers, I could fill the entire rostering schedule at Lionair tomorrow.

PS agree about the wisdom of letting an accident prone airline launch a new type. Four write offs? How many have UA or AA had in the last decade? About the same, right? But with 800ish planes instead of 11. Right? Yikes.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 am

I've heard of a few folks going over there, but keep in mind if you're in the US you'd have to convert your licenses...seeing as you're a Brit it probably wouldn't be a problem, but yeah, they took guys at dirt low times. I know you needed your cpl/atpl frozen, and now some sites are saying they actually want guys with time, but I believe they're still taking lowtimers. Mandala499 (his exact username escapes me) on here knows alot more about it.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:23 am

This incident wasn't the first one for Lion and it will most certainly not be the last. More serious trouble will inevitably happen to this an a number of other low cost, low pay, low maintenance, low anything airlines in Indonesia for as long as the government turns a blind eye to all the malpractices in the domestic airline industry here. I have a picture of the incident, but I am unfortunately not able to post it thanks to an almost complete internet breakdown in South East Asia for the past 2 days.

It is highly likely, though, that it is not only the airline and its crew and equipment which are to be blamed for this debacle. Indonesia's domestic airports are often in a sorry state, and Makassar's Hasanudin International Airport is not exception. With the rainy season upon us, look for more similar incidents to happen, unfortunately.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 3):
PS agree about the wisdom of letting an accident prone airline launch a new type. Four write offs? How many have UA or AA had in the last decade? About the same, right? But with 800ish planes instead of 11. Right? Yikes.

No doubt, that was a somewhat risky move by Boeing, but with the constantly growing number of 739ER orders, it was worth it.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):

Makes hull loss No. 4 or 5 for Lion Air... time for Boeing to re-think if Lion Air is a customer they want to deliver their shiny new 739ER to.

Boeing isn't liable if Lion Air crashes an aircraft due to pilot error. It is the responsibility of local regulatory agencies to ensure that Lion Air has proper crew training and experience.

Should Boeing stop deliveries to GOL because they lost a 737-800 with nearly 150 people that was only 18 days old?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 3):
Four write offs? How many have UA or AA had in the last decade? About the same, right? But with 800ish planes instead of 11. Right? Yikes.

You're also talking about relativly old airframes with Lion Air.

The damage to this 734 does not sound all that severe, but if the airframe has been depreciated heavily, it makes more sense to just take a write-off and collect insurance.

The Southwest 73G that overran the airport perimeter at MDW would have surely been a write-off if a 737 Classic were involved. As it happened, the 73G was only 18 months old, so it made sense to spend millions on the repair work.
 
leothedog
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:53 am

*Adding Lion Air to my list of airlines to avoid*
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
77411
Posts: 103
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
Makes hull loss No. 4 or 5 for Lion Air... time for Boeing to re-think if Lion Air is a customer they want to deliver their shiny new 739ER to.

I dont think Boeing cares as long as they get paid and the result of the hull loss is not a design issue. But I could be wrong.

Regards
 
Thomson735
Posts: 156
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting 77411 (Reply 9):
I dont think Boeing cares as long as they get paid and the result of the hull loss is not a design issue. But I could be wrong

Partly true i feel, its like the discussion everytime a 737-200 crashes, usually a dodgy carrier, but its still on boeings name no matter what the cause,

They may be getting the $$$ for it but im sure boeing doesnt want a huge list of hull loses involving the aircraft they have designed and made
 
bingo
Posts: 278
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:02 am

Quote:
Makes hull loss No. 4 or 5 for Lion Air... time for Boeing to re-think if Lion Air is a customer they want to deliver their shiny new 739ER to.

Are you kidding? As long as their cash is green Boeing will make a killing on them!

Quote:
You know you can be an expat pilot and go fly 737's for them with like 300 hrs, no kidding.

Too cool! DeltaGuy...Which levels on Flight Simulator X do I have to finish to qualify?  bigthumbsup 
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Leothedog (Reply 8):
*Adding Lion Air to my list of airlines to avoid*

Excellent idea. I flew YOG-DPS-YOG with them last week on one of their MD82s. I boarded via the rear airstair and noticed a few screws missing near to the pressurized door at the back.

HW-IBC is right. The state of domestic airports here is awful at best. Taking off from Yogya is always exciting because the runway is so bumpy that when the plane accelerates the plane is constantly bumping up and down.
 
9vswa
Posts: 64
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:51 pm

The level of safety with regard to some of the smaller and low-cost carriers in Indonesia is quite poor. Over the past year there have been numerous incidents involving low-csot Indonesian carriers. Lion Air is not the only airline with a poor safety record.

Call it coincidence if you wish, I caught PK-LIJ here in SIN just 3 days before the accident, on the 21st. Sad to see the aircraft gone so soon after I'd last seen it. The loss of PK-LIJ probably also explains why Lion Air MD-90s are becoming a regular sight in SIN again.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting 9VSWA (Reply 13):
Lion Air is not the only airline with a poor safety record.

That's true. There is also Wings Air, which is Lion's low cost offspring - that begs the question how low in costs one can really go - and which has an equally dodgy record. Then there is also Adam Air , and its infamous incident where a B733 lost all communicational and navigational equipment and ended up on some airstrip over 700 miles away from its destination, not knowing where it actually landed. Further, Mandala Airlines provoked the last major crash last year when one of its B732s came down just after take of in Medan. The airline has since been forced to write off at least one more B732 when it overran the runway at Tarakan a month or two ago.

Incidents like these are all too common in Indonesia and are provoked by a combination of lack of experience in the cockpit, questionable safety and maintenance standards and poor infrastructure at local airports, for sure when the weather is not optimal. With the rainy season just about kicking off seriously, some local runways here become veritable deathtraps, yet, given the cut throat competition, pilots are under a lot of pressure from airline management to keep the operation running and make irresponsible decisions.

I'm pretty sure that it won't be long before we are all here gathered again to discuss the next incident in Indonesian domestic aviation. As long as the government is unwilling to drastically clean up the industry, things are unlikely to get any better.
 
kaitak
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:51 pm

Didn't Mandala Airlines have a runway overrun within the past few days, too? (I don't think this was a hull loss, though).

I agree, though, the accident record in Indonesia is quite serious; there have been quite a few overruns, resulting in hull losses and runway safety/navaid reliability as well as airport fire cover would need to be looked at; however, an overall cleanup is probably sorely needed.
 
Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Bingo (Reply 11):
Are you kidding? As long as their cash is green Boeing will make a killing on them!

I am certainly not questioning the financial value of this customer to Boeing, I´m rather questioning the PR/reputation impact such a carrier could make on Boeing. Just imagine how the reaction of most people would be if they would read something like this:

"Boeing is denying and responsibility for the crash of Lion Air´s new B737-900ER, just delivered weeks ago. The plane is a brand-new version of the B737 of which Lion Air was the launch customer. So far the cause is not known. Until structural failure of this newly developed jet can be ruled out, operational restrictions will apply."

Now, imagine you are Joe Doe without any real association to aviation, which is the case with 99.9% of all people. What do you read? Boeing B737s are unsafe, especially the newly developed -900ER version. Certainly nothing you want to have when you are Boeing...
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Oykie
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Leothedog (Reply 8):
*Adding Lion Air to my list of airlines to avoid*

I have a really good friend of mine who will be travelling in Indonesia for the next two month. Are there any safe airlines for her to choose from? I really want to see her alive back here in Norway.  

[Edited 2006-12-29 15:37:00]
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
javibi
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
fly 737's for them with like 300 hrs

Nothing unusual in many Europen carriers, including the big names.

j
 
HB-IWC
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Didn't Mandala Airlines have a runway overrun within the past few days, too? (I don't think this was a hull loss, though).

Mandala's last overrun was almost 2 months ago and involved a B732 at Tarakan. The aircraft was written off. That said, it is entirely possible that they had some other incident more recently. Overruns are so common here in Indonesia that they are no longer newsworthy.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 17):
I have a really good friend of mine who will be travelling in Indonesia for the next two month. Are there any safe airlines for her to choose from?

Better to stick with Garuda for domestic travel, or if your friend would like to go more budget, Air Asia Indonesia should ok as well. That isn't to say that all the others are per definition unsafe, but things can definitely get a bit hairy with some of those companies, for sure during the current rainy season, which is often plagued by lots of delays and irregular operations. I'd be glad to help out if your friends needs any specific help. Just send me a PM.
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:01 am

OK... Just been able to get on today thanks to the damn net being cut...

Another Lion bites the dust...
1 732, and at least 3 MD80s have been written off and now this 734...

Injuries: 2 pax during evacuation (rumours of pax initiating evacuation due to panic unconfirmed). 1 was in shock.

Aircraft was actually doing the Jakarta-Makassar-Gorontalo run, not Tolotio...

How the story went in the media was a bit humourous...
First, Metro reported the accident happened during take off (see last paragraph in this reply), then everyone else said it was during landing.
Then, weather was blamed and the aircraft slipped during landing.
This was denied by the airport who stated it happened in clear weather.
Then, someone mentioned Lion saying some ridiculous comment that the aircraft became unbalanced due to water...
This was quickly rebuked by Lion's PR man who said something along the lines of "Don't make silly speculations" and "Don't speculate".
Then, an insider mentioned the condition of the landing gear in a local forum.
This was followed by Lion stating it happened during landing, and that the landing gear collapsed on landing, the cause of which is under investigation.

Sounds like they tried to wriggle their way through the crisis with disinfo but then got check-mated...

Quote:
Quotes from selected Indonesian news media:
"The aircraft stopped 100m out of the runway and is visible from the waiting room" (Detik.com)
Pax: "A loud bang was heard during landing and smoke was seen out of the wing"(detik.com)
Pax: "During landing, a loud roar was heard." "Not long after that, a loud bang was heard." (detik.com)
Airport PR: Damage is heavy, "Probably a total loss, major damage. Not likely to be used again." (detik.com)
"Right main gear detached, left engine cover detached, left main wheel folded and penetrated the wing. This was caused by the aircraft exiting the runway. Right stabilizer was hit by the tires." (Detik.com)
"Yan (Airport PR) rebuked comments the aircraft slipped due to the wet slippery runway. The weather was clear this morning."(Source: Detik.Com)
"5 impact points on the runway require repairs. Aircraft position is between taxiway A and C, 1500m along and on the left side of the runway. Nosegear detached and came to rest 100m from the aircraft in an open field while the left and right engine covers were detached and were found 200m from the aircraft." (Kompas.com)

Sounds like a high speed runway excursion... but then, I haven't seen the plane. Maybe HB-IWC can provide info on the aircraft's location... or even post the pics.

Someone posted in the local Indonesian aviation forum that everything was OK, landing gear indication was OK, weather wasn't the problem, but upon touchdown, apparently the landing gear didn't lock properly or a problem occured and it collapsed.

---

Quote:
You know you can be an expat pilot and go fly 737's for them with like 300 hrs, no kidding.

Dang! Deltaguy had to remember my username! LOL
They've stopped that program... But then, they decided to hijack the 738 pilots from Garuda, and also grabbing 732 and classics pilot from Adam Air to have enough when the 739ER comes in...

Previous requirements for expat pilots were 250hrs on type... 1000hrs total would land you in their "beloved" MD82...

Any pilots with foreign licenses has to have them re-endorsed. No exceptions. But, no expat pilots anymore guys, unless it comes with the leasing package as part of the type introduction period.
---

PR between Lion and Makassar's airport hasn't been rosy.
Lion has the highest number of accidents at the airport... mostly overruns and tyre bursts. It became so often that Lion's PR had accused the airport of sabotage by putting spikes on the runway!

The reasons why Makassar seems so risky is the topography surrounding the airport... the smooth (I mean SMOOTH) asphalt doesn't help...

The runway is 13/31... to enter 31, one must do a visual circuit. The aiming point for left visual 31 is a hill, you enter the base leg as near as you can to the hill, keeping it to your right (it's a 700ft hill I think), and commence the turn to final abeam of the next hill on your right (a 500 footer-ish), and stable on final by (300ft?) abeam of the hill to the right of the centerline... in marginal VMC, poor lights, and turbulence, one can easily end up in an unstable approach on this one... and I've heard a few ending up too high and too fast.

The right pattern isn't much better either... you skirt the mountains on the left on downwind, enter baseleg aiming for the 2 hills used for the boundaries of the left pattern, and then join the final before that 300footer to the right of the centerline... and sometimes you end up with some very low breakoffs... the Britannia 767s were great spectacles in the days when they operated the Hajj there (now MYT)...

Then you got ILS13... which when the wind is from the mountains, becomes quite bumpy... A few late touchdowns and the downslope near the end doesn't help when wet... Many are happy to do tailwind landings on 13... but when wet, many would still do it as it is still less risky than the visual 31 in marginal weather despite the wind direction. Though one tail wind night landing did end up with a nose first landing by a 732 (and a huge maintenance bill). But when there's a lot of departing traffic, it's visual 31... A straight in visual 31 is possible, but the letdowns are steep due to the surrounding mountains, and I've been told it's one heck of a ride doing that approach.

Well, they're making a new runway on a different heading...
-----

Quote:
The loss of PK-LIJ probably also explains why Lion Air MD-90s are becoming a regular sight in SIN again.

Yeaps, and those MD90s are now flying into airports that reportedly have not been checked by the DGAC to be suitable/approved for MD90 operations! I guess Lion just used the reason of "it's just like an MD80 but 2meters longer." HECK, it's a different type certificate!

Quote:
Incidents like these are all too common in Indonesia and are provoked by a combination of lack of experience in the cockpit,

While I tend to disagree on experience as the reason, though it is a definite risk. Commercial pressures by the management seems to be the problem. It is forcing pilots to yield... Remember the 17 pilots Adam took out of the rosters and wouldn't fly them until they quit and when they quit Adam sued them for about 100k USD each? Those 17 were the ones who didn't want to put up with the management forcing them to fly regardless of the aircraft condition or weather.

Quote:
Didn't Mandala Airlines have a runway overrun within the past few days, too?

Yes... In Malang Airport... it's quite a challenging airport in itself with mountains on both sides and an MSA of 13,000ft... This one wasn't a write off though. Silly, but a friend of mine almost diverted to Surabaya from Malang because the airport forgot to switch on the VOR...

Quote:
Just imagine how the reaction of most people would be if they would read something like this:

Well, news from inside and from cargo operators is that Lion will impose a different set of operating rules on the 739 when they are received. This include operational safety, cargo restrictions and loading... We'll see how it goes...
---

Quote:
Are there any safe airlines for her to choose from?

Others may disagree, but this is the order on safety... Based on discussions with crew on company operating procedures, maintenance operator, and whatever else... but NOT statistics.
Safe: Garuda, Merpati (Jet), Sriwijaya, Express, Batavia (A319 only)
Safe-ish: Mandala, Indonesia Air Asia, Kartika
Mild Risk: Merpati (prop), Batavia (A319 excluded), Lion Air (MD90 and 734)
Big Risk: Adam Air, Wings Air, Lion Air (non 734)
---

I find it strange that Metro reported it happening on take off... Everyone else reported the incident happening on landing.
Metro quoted 0835WIB (0130UTC) take off when the accident happened and the aircraft had landed at 0700WIB (0000UTC)... now, Lion doesn't do 1h35 domestic transits unless there's a problem.
The other medias reported the accident as happening during landing at 0835WITA (0035UTC), this is consistent with 0530WIB (2230UTC) scheduled departure as it is a 2h-2h15 flight between CGK and UPG.

Hope I didn't write too much or caused confusion...

Cheers,

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:17 am

Indonesia Air Asia has been suffering from many delays, due to maintenance... this is partly attributed to poor spare parts coming in from Air Asia Malaysia because of the switchover to the A320... but GA can have some bargains if you're lucky!

For Tech delay problems, I would GUESS the most reliable on schedule (weather delays not included) would be: GA, Express, Sriwijaya, Batavia, Kartika, Merpati, Lion Air, Mandala, Adam..

Btw, for budget, forget Lion, their fares are often higher than GA (why people are willing to pay for that and only get mineral water instead of a reliable schedule and a meal with GA baffles me!)... And I've flown a few times when GA's fare (yes, GA, not Citilink, not promo fare, but quite "last minute") is cheaper than everyone (well, Air Asia didn't fly the route)...

My company has barred Adam and Wings for senior managers, and put Sriwijaya as the preferred carrier, but as Sriwijaya is often full, Garuda is the next preferred airline, and Lion is only when <90% of the GA fare... and when it's an MD80 flight, the company recommends cancelling and rebooking on another flight or another airline.
----

HB-IWC, Mandala's last overrun was 18th Dec in Malang due to wet runway (again)...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Oykie
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
Better to stick with Garuda for domestic travel, or if your friend would like to go more budget, Air Asia Indonesia should ok as well. That isn't to say that all the others are per definition unsafe, but things can definitely get a bit hairy with some of those companies, for sure during the current rainy season, which is often plagued by lots of delays and irregular operations. I'd be glad to help out if your friends needs any specific help. Just send me a PM.

Thank you very much for that. It is good to know that help is not far away. My friend will arrive in Indonesia with a group of Norwegian students on the fourth of January.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
Others may disagree, but this is the order on safety... Based on discussions with crew on company operating procedures, maintenance operator, and whatever else... but NOT statistics.
Safe: Garuda, Merpati (Jet), Sriwijaya, Express, Batavia (A319 only)
Safe-ish: Mandala, Indonesia Air Asia, Kartika
Mild Risk: Merpati (prop), Batavia (A319 excluded), Lion Air (MD90 and 734)
Big Risk: Adam Air, Wings Air, Lion Air (non 734)

Thank you very much for your information. That was very help full.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
Hope I didn't write too much or caused confusion...

Nope, not at all. Very interesting to know all this.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 21):
Indonesia Air Asia

My friend will arrive on Air Asia from SIN or Malaysia.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
Overruns are so common here in Indonesia that they are no longer newsworthy.

I was assuming the runway at Ujung Pandang (Makassar) was puny, then I checked, it is 2500m (8200ft)....and the weather was clear?

Interesting.

And this is the launch airline for the 737-900ER. Ow.
Delete this User
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 23):
And this is the launch airline for the 737-900ER. Ow.

The -900ER is a minimal cost derivative. The phrase "big deal" comes to mind. It isn't as if they hold the crucial order for a major project like the 787 or A380.
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:46 am

Quote:
Now, imagine you are Joe Doe without any real association to aviation, which is the case with 99.9% of all people. What do you read? Boeing B737s are unsafe, especially the newly developed -900ER version. Certainly nothing you want to have when you are Boeing...

I know what you are saying. My point was that when I read that Paris Hilton wrecks her Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes...I dont associate those brands as being poor cars. I think less of the moron driving the car....  splat 
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
the Britannia 767s were great spectacles in the days when they operated the Hajj there (now MYT)...

Well, Garuda operated a daily DC10 into Makassar twice daily for years and as far as I know there were never any incidents like this one. True, the approach can be a bit hairy, and the hilly surroundings to the north of the airport are certainly not helping out there, but then aren't there plenty of of other local airports here with equally challenging approach and/or runway and infrastructure issues. I'm thinking Manado, Jogjakarta and Mataram, to name just a few.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 21):
HB-IWC, Mandala's last overrun was 18th Dec in Malang due to wet runway (again)...

You see, I was out of the country for a couple of days and missed that one. My staff didn't even mention it to me. The best example that overruns are so common these days that they are no longer newsworthy. Just yesterday, there was an incident of some kind in Medan involving Adam Air, as well as a near incident in Semarang after which the airport closed for a couple of hours for meteo related issues. The rainy season is always good for some jolly times here in the OCC.
 
scorpy
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 pm

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting Thomson735 (Reply 10):
Partly true i feel, its like the discussion everytime a 737-200 crashes, usually a dodgy carrier, but its still on boeings name no matter what the cause,

Unfortunately we're going to be seeing more and more 737 crashes as more of the classics make their way to shady operators. For this reason alone its Boeing will probably consider not re-using the 737 name with their 'y1' as the general public won't be thinking of bad maintenance when they see yet another 737 crashing.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:10 pm

HB-IWC,
Overruns nowadays just have a reaction of "Oh, another one?" Sometimes, people just don't bother, unless it's Lion, Mandala or Adam... while with GA, even a precautionary divert makes headline news!

Now an overrun is getting "boring", but it still wreaks havoc on airline ops! 22 diverts thanks to this JT accident... The RI overrun and KI overrun didn't cause problems... RI only caused SJ to be delayed, and KI didn't affect ops at all as runway wasn't blocked at any time.

Manado is surrounded by even crueller terrain, but it is ILS both ends... though the least hairy way in is the dual NDB approach for 36... Which only calls for one to be visual at 800ft and over the 2nd NDB and make the left visual turn... With Manado, the crazy thing is the Missed Approach procedures for 36... it's a triangular climb out on 2 NDBs! Pilots hated it! They just prefer going around make a hard left and head out to sea if they can see the mountain on the north west of the airport instead of playing around it on NDB procedures.

Mataram I dunno, but Jogja 27 visual has seen some interesting approach if one is caught behind... I've seen one doing a nose down all the way on the flare desperate to loose altitude... The right pattern is the preferred one... the left pattern, I've only seen Mandala do it on the 732, but I've heard Lion doing both patterns in marginal VMC... That left pattern is not a nice one!

As of Adam in Medan? Reported tyre burst, likely cause was the loss of HYD B system, making a flap15 landing on MZFW/MLW... with retreaded tyres... they were lucky to have only received a tireburst!

Semarang? LOL Semarang 31 in marginal VMC is ALWAYS INTERESTING!!!! it's a case of how tight can you go!
----
New info on the Lion crash. Insiders leak stated the leftovers on the runway was not a simple curve but a broken "S" pattern. Several crew were also overheard of flap assymetry (10 and 15). Add that with all the other info, it's beginning to sound like a HYD A & B fail... leading to erroneous alternate flap deployment and manual gear extension. Cause COULD be the "talk" beforehand about worn out HYD lines...

Only the talk about the HYD line I can't vouch, but the flap assymetry, gear failure and leftover pattern on the runway is believable. But more information is seeked... coz the NTSC will take AGES to even come up with a preliminary report.

Mandala499
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HAWK21M
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 27):
For this reason alone its Boeing will probably consider not re-using the 737 name with their 'y1' as the general public won't be thinking of bad maintenance when they see yet another 737 crashing

Whats this.
regds
MEL
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zeke
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
Sounds like a high speed runway excursion

Maybe not

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
5 impact points on the runway require repairs.

Cannot think of how an excursion would cause an impact point on a runway. Am I missing something ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
scorpy
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Whats this.

what i mean is that as more and more 737's are getting to carriers with poor maintenance records, the public will see more and more reports of 737 crashes. This will, with some members of the general public, associate the 737 name with these crashes that will (unfortunately) invaribly happen. This may cause B to reconsider using this product name for their new lineup.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 31):
This may cause B to reconsider using this product name for their new lineup.

True.But then Boeing has no control over how these operators run Older craft.The Regulatory Authorities of those countries should be more strict.This can apply to all older Aircraft of every type.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
scorpy
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 32):
True.But then Boeing has no control over how these operators run Older craft.The Regulatory Authorities of those countries should be more strict.This can apply to all older Aircraft of every type

Indeed. So this is why i think they will at least consider this. The name of a product is an important factor in its positioning and marketing and something they will think carefully about. Also a new name to the general travelling public equals something 'shiney and new'. especially if it builds on their existing 7x7 to be instantly recognisable as a boeing.
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:28 am

Quote:
Cannot think of how an excursion would cause an impact point on a runway. Am I missing something ?

"Touchdown, landing gear collapses, impact points on the runway, the leaves the runway" perhaps?

Well, if what I hear is right... I'll avoid the airline for a while longer.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
n757kw
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:19 am

This is for Mandala499 and HB-IWC,

I am curious are landing speeds higher in Indonesia? The reason I asked is because, it just seems that the B737s and MD80s I have been on land faster than I am accustomed to in the U.S.

I was on AdamAir going to JOG and I swear we were going to overrun the runway. The crew landed very fast and I think a little long. I am willing to bet the brakes and reversers were at max. We went to the very end of the runway. Even my wife thought we landed fast. Garuda also freaked me out in bad weather in PLM. We came in fast and the runway was wet. Saw a lot of water flying.

Don't get me wrong, I have some fast landings in the U.S. also. But, with the 6 flights a year I do in Indonesia, they just feel to be much faster. Sometimes I think it is Indonesia, because I have had a few landings on KE A330s at CGK that were fast and hard compared to the landings at ICN.

N757KW
"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
 
mandala499
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RE: Lion Air B737-400 Lost In Landing Accident

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:19 pm

N757KW,
Relatively low winds... also the tendency of taking a tailwind landing up to the tailwind limitations in order to take the easy approach other than the diffiicult one.... JOG is one where if no departing traffic, and the winds are <10kt tailwind, they'd take a fast straight in ILS 09... If you did visual 27 arrivals, they tend to brake on the latter half of the roll because they're not supposed to make the 180 turn outside the turning area at the end of the runway.... 732s might do it, but 733/4s and MDs won't normally doit... and they'll surely miss Ramp B...

Then with Adam, they often come in near MLW or MZFW... the same with Lion... and sometimes pilots even doubt the accuracy of their loadsheets...

Btw, which aircraft was this? If 732, (almost) all 732s in Indonesia I know have autobrakes disabled... So it's a case of progressive manual braking in a lot of cases... and lots of cases where the big decelerations happen near the end of the landing roll. And I am told, they do this to allow minimal brake cooling period so they don't get delays due to brake cooling.

Apart from that, I'm still searching for answers to this "syndrome"...

Gimme us a buzz next time you transit through CGK...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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